Snap View for VR

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Already made a post in suggestions about it, but I will also open a topic, because I think this is actually a real big downside of flying in VR currently.

 

I think adding snap view for VR is a real important step towards making VR more competitively and closer to TrackIR (or actual snap view users in 2D). It's really hard to check six currently for safety purposes, but as soon as you really have a six, effectively maneuvering while keeping your six in sight is pretty much impossible in VR, even with the best turning office chairs. 

 

Now you might say it's not realistic, and I completely agree with you. In single player I would never use such a feature for reasons of immersion.

We all know that the owl-like capabilities using TrackIR or snap views are not realistic at all. If it were me, i'd nerf those capabilities to a realistic degree (movement speed, angles), but first of all that's not really easy to do, because it's hard to determine what views are actually possible to achieve in combat situations,  and second and more importantly, most of the 2D players would surely go on the warpath when they lose their current capability.

 

But as it is, using VR in multiplayer just puts you at a severe disadvantage against 2D players. A feature like Snap view would bring VR closer to TrackIR users and make it just an overall fairer affair.

 

In addition, the old folks would really thank it if they don't have to put that much strain on their neck.

 

I really hope this will get added to the game, it surely can't be too much effort, since the feature is already there for 2D players.

Edited December 4, 2018 by II./JG77_Manu*

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Ill voice my opinion and say I'm glad we don't have snap views in VR.

 

Let's keep raising the bar not lowering it. Sure, I might be at a disadvantage in a dogfight, spotting, checking 6. But I do well enough to take a few down with me on most flights. Snap views should be a server lockable option, as should realistic head positions in TIR. (No top corner of the canopy owl views).

 

One day I hope owl view will be a thing of the past, but that day is a long way off. Let's not drag it along with us.

[HR_Zunzun]

I think that probably the main limitations in vr currently is the lack of proper FoV and resolution. Now that I have got my first set of vr googles (lenovo explorer) I have been making some test to see how much I can see behind my back, in reality, and is really remarkable. Looking over my left shoulder I can see (not focus but get awareness of) thinks situated on the right side of my back (like 5 o'clock). In VR I can hardly see my 7:30 without turning the whole body purposely.

Adding snap vr would level fields but I don't think is the solution. I am more inclined to the options of making a server lockable options some limitations to trackir and snap views (limiting the range of view could be a good start). But I too reckon is a very complex item considering both technical and user side factors.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Well, I also didn't feel the need for it when flying offline (don't even want it there) or in KOTA.

But in TaW with a real competitive field of pilots, I really miss my old owl-capabilities. My performance as a figher got a lot worse since using VR. And while that is not enough reason for me to not use VR (for many it actually is), it's still a real bummer. 

[SharpeXB]

On 12/4/2018 at 9:12 PM, HR_Zunzun said:

I am more inclined to the options of making a server lockable options some limitations to trackir and snap views (limiting the range of view could be a good start). 

Weakening all players down to the ability of VR users isn’t a good idea. You all need to just deal with VRs inherent limitations instead of trying to drag everyone down to your level. Is the next suggestion to limit everyone’s display to 1200p and 45hz?

Edited December 10, 2018 by SharpeXB

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Weakening all players down to the ability of VR users isn’t a good idea. You all need to just deal with VRs inherent limitations instead of trying to drag everyone down to your level. Is the next suggestion to limit everyone’s display to 1200p and 45hz?

 

I see it along the same lines as being able to stick your head out of an open cockpit.

 

That ability got removed (and your head is restricted due to strong winds) because it unrealistically represented the capabilities of what a pilot could do. Why was it changed? Because it altered game combat. People could see more than they should have been able to and gained unrealistic advantages.

 

So, back to this point of discussion. The current implementation allows pilots to unrealistically see more of their 6 o'clock than what a real pilot would have been able to. This alters combat because attacking someone from 6 is less effective when they can easily gain a view that is unrepresentative of what a real pilot could.

 

This shouldn't be a VR vs TIR thing. If I was still just using TIR, I would still support a restriction on rearward visibility.

 

 

[coconut]

Please note the topic is not about restricting TIR players, but bringing a feature that others have to VR.

Restricting views is an orthogonal issue, independent of the medium used. 

[BroGrimm1tkcamp]

I am not a programmer but wonder if an adjustable head 1:1- 1:2 ratio such as TIR has could be implemented in VR

 

[coconut]

That would not feel good. Some of the gunner positions are like that, and I hate the impression it makes.

I think it might be possible to modify the SteamVR replacement (OpenVR? I forgot the name) so that it rotates the reported headset direction 180 degrees around the vertical axis when a key is pressed, but after a quick look at the source code it was not obvious where to do the change.

[HR_Zunzun]

15 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Weakening all players down to the ability of VR users isn’t a good idea. You all need to just deal with VRs inherent limitations instead of trying to drag everyone down to your level. Is the next suggestion to limit everyone’s display to 1200p and 45hz?

 

Limiting views is not weakening all players, It would be making the sim more realistic. Limited views are what pilots in real life have. But in any case in my post, I suggested it as a lockable option so players looking for less realistic options would always have a server to suit their needs.

[BroGrimm1tkcamp]

43 minutes ago, coconut said:

That would not feel good. Some of the gunner positions are like that, and I hate the impression it makes.

I think it might be possible to modify the SteamVR replacement (OpenVR? I forgot the name) so that it rotates the reported headset direction 180 degrees around the vertical axis when a key is pressed, but after a quick look at the source code it was not obvious where to do the change.

At least you had an idea where to go. Doing it along with a key press would be nice. The option might keep everyone from getting sick

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, HR_Zunzun said:

 

Limiting views is not weakening all players, It would be making the sim more realistic. Limited views are what pilots in real life have. But in any case in my post, I suggested it as a lockable option so players looking for less realistic options would always have a server to suit their needs.

Depending on the cockpit, real pilots can look fully behind them. The obvious worst case is the 109 where it was so tight they likely couldn’t. 

But look at the P-51 and P-47. They didn’t put blister canopies on those for no reason. Or the P-40 with those cut out windows behind the hood, clearly the pilot was intended to look through those. The Spitfire has a clear section behind the bubble for the same use. 

The problem you have in VR is your fov is like wearing a scuba mask. That already makes you need to turn your head more than you’d need in reality.

And as a server option, this sim doesn’t need any more of those because there are so few players online.  

 

Edited December 10, 2018 by SharpeXB

[HR_Zunzun]

14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Depending on the cockpit, real pilots can look fully behind them. The obvious worst case is the 109 where it was so tight they likely couldn’t. 

But look at the P-51 and P-47. They didn’t put blister canopies on those for no reason. Or the P-40 with those cut out windows behind the hood, clearly the pilot was intended to look through those. The Spitfire has a clear section behind the bubble for the same use. 

The problem you have in VR is your fov is like wearing a scuba mask. That already makes you need to turn your head more than you’d need in reality.

And as a server option, this sim doesn’t need any more of those because there are so few players online.  

 

 

That is true but not the way you imply. If you read carefully my first post you will find that I said that doing a simple test looking behind my shoulder I could see way behind into the other shoulder. But equating this to the way you look behind with trackir (or snap view) is truly false:

- First, "seeing" is not focusing. I "see" things with my peripheral vision. That is a big difference than when I use trackir that I only have to move my eyes a bit to look almost straight into the screen. You can do a simple test. Move the head to one side (as far as you would be doing when looking behind in the game) and try to read this forum on the screen. I can do it without much difficulty. I may miss a bit of the screen but I can read clearly the text. Then turn around 180º and look behind your shoulder. Try to read. Good luck.

- Second, I can and I have been looking behind my virtual shoulder with trackir all day long. I only have to flick my neck a bit. At the end of a long session no doubt I will be sore but nothing dramatic (at least in my case) In VR (like in reality) looking behind your shoulder pose a strain to your neck and back muscles the same as your extraorbital muscles. It can be done and is not a major problem for a bit time but this is way less than with trackir.

-Third, in VR and reality, you look behind your shoulder. In Trackir you look behind your back. You swivel your head over a fixed point. That is why, in the game, when you look behind you can see your backrest perfectly. That is not possible in reality/vr. You look behind turning your head and shoulder. That's why track ir it´s being referred as owl neck.

-Four, looking behind your shoulder in vr and reality, the ergonomy of your joystick, throttle and pedals changes a lot. Even here using VR in your desktop you have advantages compared to the real cockpit (swivelling chair, no straps, hotas disposition of controls....). Looking over your left shoulder is not the same than over right one. The ergonomy change. In trackir and the like again, the position of your hands and feet doesn´t change at all (at the most negligible).

 

FOV is not a huge problem. I can overcome those for the most part with my chair. I can look behind in my p47 more or least with the same limitations as in reality (using some not realistic tricks) but way worse than trackir users for the reasons I have exposed. It is not my intention deprecating or vilifying trackir users. Far from it. It is my opinion that limiting views is a step that will be taken in the future when the technology is available to everyone. When I express my wish of lockable option neither I am implying is a priority for the developers. It is only a wish I had because VR approximate more to the real thing than Trackir.

 

A bonus, good reading. It is a translation from Russian (original) into Spanish of a Soviet manual for fighter pilots during ww2. It explained marvellously human eye limitations and more specifically vision limitations for the real pilots strap in their cockpits during a patrol.

http://www.rkka.es/Manuales/003_manuales_tacticas/002_manual_tacticas_caza/002_busqueda_enemigo.htm

 

*By the way, the whole webpage is a gem if you are interested in Soviet aviation during ww2. The only problem is only in Spanish.

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by HR_Zunzun

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Of course you are right @HR_Zunzun and the ingame capabilities of head turning are vastly overdone and unrealistic. But as I said, people using snap views or TrackIR are surely against a limitation of views, as Sharp already shows. They even use it as opportunity to hate against VR - as Sharp also shows -, as expected. I am sure if more non-VR users would read this thread, they would react in a similar way. So while it might be a good way to limit the pilot view further in the future - after a lot of explanation and "change management" by the Devs - a quick and intermediate fix would be the right thing to do, to level the playing field and give similar chances to everyone. Nothing else i'd suggest in my first post. 

[HR_Zunzun]

On 12/11/2018 at 9:04 AM, II./JG77_Manu* said:

Of course you are right @HR_Zunzun and the ingame capabilities of head turning are vastly overdone and unrealistic. But as I said, people using snap views or TrackIR are surely against a limitation of views, as Sharp already shows. They even use it as opportunity to hate against VR - as Sharp also shows -, as expected. I am sure if more non-VR users would read this thread, they would react in a similar way. So while it might be a good way to limit the pilot view further in the future - after a lot of explanation and "change management" by the Devs - a quick and intermediate fix would be the right thing to do, to level the playing field and give similar chances to everyone. Nothing else i'd suggest in my first post. 

 

My wish, of all I explained, was for the future. Right now, with a mix of VR, Trackir and snap views players in the same servers it is only logical that some sort of help to the first ones can be implemented (On my part, I am happy VR changes the way I fly and how I have to rely more on my wingman to clear my six).

In essence, to me, the more the options the better.

Edited December 12, 2018 by HR_Zunzun
clarifying

[Voyager]

If you map a controller button to " re-center view" you can look to one side, punch the button, then you'll be able to more easily look over the tail, then re-center on forward when you're done. 

 

It's a stop-gap until wider fov headsets are available, but helps for the moment. 

[[CPT]CptJackSparrow]

Combat spread?

[C6_lefuneste]

just for information, I push the request here : I am using driver4VR for my Pimax 4K, but I wonder what the dev can do for all VR helmets...

Edited December 16, 2018 by lefuneste

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

 

The example image below that some have used is a poor one for snap views.

 

 

Try DCS F18...  You can look behind you just like this due to the room in the cockpit and the design of the seat/headrest. I do with my HTC Vive, and my fixed (non swivel) chair and can see directly behind the plane.

 

Can you dogfight unhindered why doing it? No, usually need to drop at least the hand off the throttle.

 

 

[SharpeXB]

On 12/16/2018 at 6:24 AM, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

The example image below that some have used is a poor one for snap views.

 

 

Try DCS F18...  You can look behind you just like this due to the room in the cockpit and the design of the seat/headrest. I do with my HTC Vive, and my fixed (non swivel) chair and can see directly behind the plane.

 

Can you dogfight unhindered why doing it? No, usually need to drop at least the hand off the throttle.

 

 

PC flight sims just won’t ever have that kind of physical realism unless you want to build a cockpit with a dome projector.