Why the Germans lost WW2

[LLv44_Mprhead]

Do you have any sources that state strategic goal of Bomber Command was to kill Luffwaffe?

 

I was talking about USAAF. And that really should have been clear to anyone. Of the bomber commands part of bombing campaign, my understanding is that their goal was to break the will and deprive the workforce of German industry by attacking population.

 

In the climate of totalitarian Nazi Germany where the main victims of strategic bombing were women children and the elderly, it is very hard to believe their voice would be considered.

 

It's not just a question of their voice to be considered. But if the will is broken to such extent that people are no longer willing to work, it will lead to catastrophic consequensies in ability to wage war. And the fact that BC didn't attain this goal does not mean that is was unattainable. As I said before, there are studies that implicate that it was actually rather close.

 

 

Hitler by 1945 did not care at all about Germany or it's people thus his order of March 19 to the military to destroy everything in Germany - "military, industrial, transportation and communication installations as well as all stores in Germany..in order to prevent them from falling intact into hands of enemy" p525 W Shirer - The Rise and Fall...

 

As a side note: Although I agree with sturmkraehe and Boussourir in that Hitler was not crazy, by that time he obviously had lost his touch with reality, advanced parkinso's disease not helping.

[Sergik1]

1. The enigma code was broken

2. The Battle of Britain

3. The Russian winter + the Russians

4. The RAF and USAAF round-the-clock bombing

5. Very poor strategic decisions

6. Crappy friends

7. Bad, bad PR...

 

Firstly, excuse my (google) english ...

But the Russian-speaking forum such topics could not be, in principle, ...

But I'm glad that as no such theme "Why Japan lost....."  with answers such as:

1. Because the Soviet Union joined the opposition and had a decisive ....

2. Bad weather in the tropics ..

3. Americans

4. Crazy Japanese emperor ..

well, etc.

[Ehren23]

On Hitler's second attempt on Moscow he was advised not to go for Moscow and instead capture the north Russian oil fields but Hitler apparently had a massive hard-on Moscow he ignored the advice from his advisers and attacked Moscow. Once he made that decision that was ultimately the beginning of the end because he couldn't get  the oil (whatever little he had left) to his troops.

[SOLIDKREATE]

Because we ALL came together in the common goal of defeating true evil.

[Bladderburst]

Because we ALL came together in the common goal of defeating true evil.

 

Right, true evil is what we used to fight or what we are fighting now?

[79_vRAF_Friendly_flyer]

yeah the good wars: cessesion, wwii and star wars

 

[Bladderburst]

So there is no need for war anymore since "true evil" has been defeated already?

[Kublai]

I was talking about USAAF. And that really should have been clear to anyone. Of the bomber commands part of bombing campaign, my understanding is that their goal was to break the will and deprive the workforce of German industry by attacking population.

 

 

 

It's not just a question of their voice to be considered. But if the will is broken to such extent that people are no longer willing to work, it will lead to catastrophic consequensies in ability to wage war. And the fact that BC didn't attain this goal does not mean that is was unattainable. As I said before, there are studies that implicate that it was actually rather close.

 

 

As a side note: Although I agree with sturmkraehe and Boussourir in that Hitler was not crazy, by that time he obviously had lost his touch with reality, advanced parkinso's disease not helping.

 

 I apologize I have not figured out how to reply to individuals quote and I hope you don't think I am belaboring the point here, but it was not clear you were referring to the 8th AF. But even so i don't accept even for 8th AF their strategic goal was to destroy the Luffwaffe. First of all it strikes me that long range daylight strikes deep into Germany by unescorted B17 is not an very effective tactic to achieve the strategic goal of defeating the Lufffwaffe. Churchill celebrated the fact that the Luffwaffe switch bombing to his cities and thus give a reprieve to his fighters squadrons. It should be evident to all that attacking cities is not a strategy to destroy the enemies' air force.

 

Most factory workers were slave and POWs in Nazi Germany. This was deemed a war crime at end of the war. So your point "extent that people are no longer willing to work, it will lead to catastrophic consequensies in ability to wage war" - is really not that valid.

 

Whether Hitler was crazy or not by 45 is not relevant as the apparatus of the totalitarian Nazi police state was still existent. It is extremely difficult to believe that the victims of area bombing would get far with protest with Gestapo and SS still in operation. Another thing when you study the history of human tragedy it is peculiar how compliant the victims are. Whether it be the Jews lining up to go to concentration camps or victims of bombing, they have a sad resignation to their fate. Dissenting protesting is the exception.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

Yes, I guess I could have expressed myself more clearly. Sometimes it's hard to remember that people don't read your mind, just the words you write. About 8th AF strategic goal to destroy Luftwaffe: It actually depends of what part of campaign were are talking about. At the first half of -44 it was their main goal, according to both Jay A. Stout's Men Who Killed the Luftwaffe and Rick Atkinson's The Guns at Last Light. And that is what they did. It might have became their strategic goal out of necessity, both for securing invasion to Europe and to make possible to bomb industrial targets, but that doesn't change to fact that it was their goal. Bombing campaign achieved three important things, first of all, it did destroy Luftwaffe, second it forced Germany to put huge amount of resources that would have been needed elsewhere to air defence. They had 1,2 million people manning the air defence systems at one point. And third, bombing campaing (second half of 1944) caused massive damage to German oil industry, depriving wehrmacht much of it's ability to wage mobile war.

 

 

Whether Hitler was crazy or not by 45 is not relevant as the apparatus of the totalitarian Nazi police state was still existent. It is extremely difficult to believe that the victims of area bombing would get far with protest with Gestapo and SS still in operation. Another thing when you study the history of human tragedy it is peculiar how compliant the victims are. Whether it be the Jews lining up to go to concentration camps or victims of bombing, they have a sad resignation to their fate. Dissenting protesting is the exception.

 

About this; my point was that the orders Hitler did or didn't give at that point can't really be used as proof of him caring or not caring about German people. Btw, just to be clear, I don't think that he really cared much about "real" Germans, he cared about his vision. So I don't think that he was ever going to make peace because suffering of people. But this is something that we know now, with benefit of hindsight.

[MiloMorai]

 

Most factory workers were slave and POWs in Nazi Germany. This was deemed a war crime at end of the war. So your point "extent that people are no longer willing to work, it will lead to catastrophic consequensies in ability to wage war" - is really not that valid.

 

 

Is that so.

 

http://www.wwiiarchives.net/servlet/action/document/page/149/41/0

 

This is worth reading, http://www.wwiiarchives.net/servlet/action/documents/usa/103/0

[Kublai]

Is that so.

 

http://www.wwiiarchives.net/servlet/action/document/page/149/41/0

 

This is worth reading, http://www.wwiiarchives.net/servlet/action/documents/usa/103/0

How do you interpret that chart? I see male Germans decreasing in both absolute and relative percentage as part of civilian work force and see and increasing use of foreign workers in the latter stages of the war. Isn't that what I was saying? If I am reading the chart correctly by 44, out of a labor force of about 36 million, you have about 15 million men and approx 21 million women and foreign workers. The source looks like from US intel perhaps from wartime. If it is then we can rightly suspect the real numbers to be skewed much more to slave labor as the full extent of Nazi usage of slave labor only became known after the war.

[MiloMorai]

You said: Most factory workers were slave and POWs in Nazi Germany.

 

which the graph clearly shows is not true.

[Kublai]

Yes, I guess I could have expressed myself more clearly. Sometimes it's hard to remember that people don't read your mind, just the words you write. About 8th AF strategic goal to destroy Luftwaffe: It actually depends of what part of campaign were are talking about. At the first half of -44 it was their main goal, according to both Jay A. Stout's Men Who Killed the Luftwaffe and Rick Atkinson's The Guns at Last Light. And that is what they did. It might have became their strategic goal out of necessity, both for securing invasion to Europe and to make possible to bomb industrial targets, but that doesn't change to fact that it was their goal. Bombing campaign achieved three important things, first of all, it did destroy Luftwaffe, second it forced Germany to put huge amount of resources that would have been needed elsewhere to air defence. They had 1,2 million people manning the air defence systems at one point. And third, bombing campaing (second half of 1944) caused massive damage to German oil industry, depriving wehrmacht much of it's ability to wage mobile war.

 

 

 

About this; my point was that the orders Hitler did or didn't give at that point can't really be used as proof of him caring or not caring about German people. Btw, just to be clear, I don't think that he really cared much about "real" Germans, he cared about his vision. So I don't think that he was ever going to make peace because suffering of people. But this is something that we know now, with benefit of hindsight.

I would have to respectfully disagree with you on that point. In Stout's book he charts the development and buildup of the USAF and as a general theme says it beat the Luftwaffe. Yes it did as Germany's lost of the war so the Luftwaffe was beaten. Unless you can cite where Stout refers to historical documents and says the USAF generals had it as a strategic goal of 8th AF bombers to destroy Luftwaffe I think you are mistaken. Granted defeat of the Luftwaffe was a goal of the top command, along with destruction of Panzer divisions and all the Nazi military, we are talking here specifically of the bombing campaign of the US and British.It was a very costly campaign in both personnel lost, material and resources lost and the enormous cost in manpower, capital and resources to keep the campaign going. The strategic goal of Arthur Harris was to bomb the German in submission by area bombing their cities. Americans at first thought by their more advance bombers and equipment could do "precision" bombing and destroy industrial targets. They soon learned the cost to return was not worth it and adopted the British strategy of area bombing except in daylight.

 

In the end the Luftwaffe lost the war of attrition and especially so once a long range fighter (P51) was made available and not by any strategic bombing campaign.

[Rama]

Unless you can cite where Stout refers to historical documents and says the USAF generals had it as a strategic goal of 8th AF bombers to destroy Luftwaffe I think you are mistaken.

He isn't.

When the USSTAFE was created begining 1944 under Spaatz command (this command was regrouping both 8th and 15th Air Forces), his main objective was to destroy the Luftwaffe, in prevision of the future Landing and the following operations in Europe.

Even a bit before that, in the last days of 1943, Eaker wrote to Doolitled (who successed him at the head of the 8th) "It is a major requirement. You must destroy the enemy air forces wherever you find them, in the air, on the ground and in their factories..."

[Kublai]

He isn't.

When the USSTAFE was created begining 1944 under Spaatz command (this command was regrouping both 8th and 15th Air Forces), his main objective was to destroy the Luftwaffe, in prevision of the future Landing and the following operations in Europe.

Even a bit before that, in the last days of 1943, Eaker wrote to Doolitled (who successed him at the head of the 8th) "It is a major requirement. You must destroy the enemy air forces wherever you find them, in the air, on the ground and in their factories..."

That quote sounds like a tactical imperative not a strategic directive. If you look at the missions bomber command, both British and US actually ran - area bombing of German cities deep inside Germany and without fighter cover till late 44 with intro of the P51 and come to the conclusion that the strategic objective was to destroy the Luftwaffe, well then all I can say is that is a pretty convoluted interpretation of strategy.

 

I did state that prior to D Day all allied air assets were diverted to prep France for the invasion. The "strategic bombing" campaign was suspended to focus on the tactical necessity to gain air superiority and isolate the beachheads by cutting communication lines - rail lines etc. Once beachheads were secure, the strategic bombing campaign was resumed.

[MiloMorai]

That quote sounds like a tactical imperative not a strategic directive. If you look at the missions bomber command, both British and US actually ran - area bombing of German cities deep inside Germany and without fighter cover till late 44 with intro of the P51 and come to the conclusion that the strategic objective was to destroy the Luftwaffe, well then all I can say is that is a pretty convoluted interpretation of strategy.

 

 

Yes please do look at those missions. I will even give you a link, http://www.usaaf.net/chron/

 

P-51s were flying in the ETO in Dec 1943. Big Week in Feb 1944 had P-51 escorts all the way to the target and back.

 

By late 1944 the back of the Luftwaffe had been broken.

[Lusekofte]

What would a complete and intact luftwaffe have done in 1944 without the fuel to fly them, human and natural resources was drained already in end of 1942. Hitler said already before BOB that Germany could not afford a war lasting longer than a year.

After the declaration of war with Britain Germany import fell to just 10% of what they had.

No matter what economy you got, in a war there is only one currency, people and recourses, everything else get settled after the war.

It is simple mathematics, the control he had in Germany was due to informants and not police force , witch would not have helped in the long run even if he had won over Russia. 

If the Germans had treated the people in the east better he might had a allied in them, making everything easier . It is so many things that went wrong due to ubermenchen thinking

[Kublai]

Yes please do look at those missions. I will even give you a link, http://www.usaaf.net/chron/

 

P-51s were flying in the ETO in Dec 1943. Big Week in Feb 1944 had P-51 escorts all the way to the target and back.

 

By late 1944 the back of the Luftwaffe had been broken.

What is your point? That P-51's were used earlier in the war? That is not the issue being discussed. By late 44 more allied fighters were being flown in a single escort mission then probably what the Luftwaffe had left in their entire force - but they still had ME262!

[MiloMorai]

Lets see, you said:

 

area bombing of German cities deep inside Germany and without fighter cover till late 44 with intro of the P51

 

Truly an utter nonsense statement.

 

How many more Regensburgs and Schweinfurts were there in 1944? None because the 8th AF were being escorted by P-51s, with assistance by P-38s, beginning in Jan 1944.

 

And on the subject of destroying the Luftwaffe:

 

WEDNESDAY, 5 JANUARY 1944

An Eighth Air Force report concludes that the US daylight strategic bombing program against Germany will be threatened unless steps are taken to reduce the enemy's fighter force, which has increased in strength in the W as a result of step-up in production, strengthening of firepower, and transfer of a larger percentage of fighters to the Western Front.

 

You really are clueless with regards to escort operations. Just because it says, say 800 fighter escorts, were on the mission doesn't mean that those 800 flew with the bombers all the way to the target and back. The P-47s flew escort to about the German border when the P-51s took over. The P-47s picked up the returning bombers, again about the German border, relieving the P-51s of escort duty.

[Rama]

That quote sounds like a tactical imperative not a strategic directive. 

It was actually just the repeat by Eaker of a Strategic directive given by Gen Arnold to thr 8th Air Force command (directive given 1942/12/23) "Overlord and Anvil will certainly not be possible if the Luftwaffe is not put out of action. That is why I'm pointing out it is absolutely ESSENTIAL to obtain its destruction by attacking everywhere you find it, in the air, on the ground and in their factories"

 

 If you look at the missions bomber command, both British and US actually ran - area bombing of German cities deep inside Germany and without fighter cover till late 44 with intro of the P51

 

That's wrong. Early January 44, the bombers were allready protected during 800km, on go and on return (first 200 km by Spits, next 300km by P47 and last 300km by P38), and on return, the fighters were free to attack oportunity targets. And shortly after, it increased with the P51.

As an Exemple, on February 22, around 800 B-17and B-24 were covered by 679 P-47, P-38 and P-51, with a result of 9 bombers shot down, for 72 german fighters.... just an exemple among many... 

 

I did state that prior to D Day all allied air assets were diverted to prep France for the invasion. The "strategic bombing" campaign was suspended to focus on the tactical necessity to gain air superiority and isolate the beachheads by cutting communication lines - rail lines etc. Once beachheads were secure, the strategic bombing campaign was resumed.

 

It wasn't "suspended", it was used, along with other tools, to reach the goal

[Heliopause]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TPl1utNvQ0

 

A 3-part clip about the bombers and the (P-51) escorts....

Edited March 4, 2014 by Heliopause

[MiloMorai]

From the beginning of Jan 1944 to the beginning of June 1944 the 303 BG(H) had:

 

~100 mission into Germany plus one to Posen Poland (May 29, 1944) and ~20 to France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

 

http://www.303rdbg.com/missions.html

[IVJG4-Knight]

@ Kublai

 

"He did a good job at Dresden" ? are you joking ?

 

Churchill  and Harris bombed a city with no strategic importance.With 1 milion refugees : women children and old men burned alive or asphyxiated.It's sad.

The germans were champions of warcrimes of course but you do not get your revenge by killing civilians.

Edited March 5, 2014 by IVJG4-Knight

[MiloMorai]

Civilians made the weapons of war for Nazi Germany.

 

Colonel Harold E. Cook, a US POW held in the Friedrichstadt marshaling yard the night before the attacks, later said that "I saw with my own eyes that Dresden was an armed camp: thousands of German troops, tanks and artillery and miles of freight cars loaded with supplies supporting and transporting German logistics towards the east to meet the Russians."

 

There was 110 factories and 50,000 workers in the city supporting the German war effort at the time of the raid. According to the report, there were aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabrik Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); an optical goods factory (Zeiss Ikon AG); as well as factories producing electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch & Sterzel AG); gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke); and electric gauges (Gebrüder Bassler). It also said there were barracks, hutted camps, and a munitions storage depot.

[Bladderburst]

Dresden is a war crime.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

@ Kublai

 

"He did a good job at Dresden" ? are you joking ?

 

Churchill  and Harris bombed a city with no strategic importance.With 1 milion refugees : women children and old men burned alive or asphyxiated.It's sad.

The germans were champions of warcrimes of course but you do not get your revenge by killing civilians.

 

I assume Kublai was being sarcastic. And anyway, let's leave war crime discussion out of this for now please.

[Kublai]

Lets see, you said:

 

 

Truly an utter nonsense statement.

 

How many more Regensburgs and Schweinfurts were there in 1944? None because the 8th AF were being escorted by P-51s, with assistance by P-38s, beginning in Jan 1944.

 

And on the subject of destroying the Luftwaffe:

 

WEDNESDAY, 5 JANUARY 1944

An Eighth Air Force report concludes that the US daylight strategic bombing program against Germany will be threatened unless steps are taken to reduce the enemy's fighter force, which has increased in strength in the W as a result of step-up in production, strengthening of firepower, and transfer of a larger percentage of fighters to the Western Front.

 

You really are clueless with regards to escort operations. Just because it says, say 800 fighter escorts, were on the mission doesn't mean that those 800 flew with the bombers all the way to the target and back. The P-47s flew escort to about the German border when the P-51s took over. The P-47s picked up the returning bombers, again about the German border, relieving the P-51s of escort duty.

The OP was asking why German lost WWII. My reading of WWII and especially since my exposure to IL2 is that Russia did most of the heavy lifting to defeat Germany. Germany lost because it could not defeat Russia. Russia in the end beat Russia militarily. In the West we may know about Stalingrad and that's about all. The common myth is the Allies won the war and without due credit given to the Russian effort. The Allied strategic air campaign being a large part of the Allied war effort is given more credit then it deserves. This is not a reflection of any of the pilots and aircrew who fought and died valiantly in the campaigns. IMO the problem was the strategy of bomber command, both British and US. Arthur Harris was the main proponent of the idea that the war could be won by a bombing campaign alone. When daylight bombing proved to be highly costly in planes lost to enemy action and ineffective as only a very small percentage of bombs actually hit their target, the strategy became to bomb city centers at night. The US thought they could do better with bigger heavily armed B17s but they too proved vulnerable to enemy fighter who were quick to adapt new tactics to defeat the B17 and B24s. The Norden bomb sight only proved to be slightly more effective then what the British had. By 44, the US were practicing area bombing as the British. Morality aside, this strategy in the end did not bring about its strategic goal which was to end the war by bombing the enemy into submission. The cost in capital, manpower, scientific and industrial resources was not worth the return it gave. This conclusion is with the benefit of hindsight. With the benefit of hindsight I believe the Allied war effort would have been furthered by a more tactical use of air power - support of ground forces, anti U Boat, search and destroy of Luftwaffe and its bases etc.   

 

Please be clear I am not implying that Allied air power was not effective as it was extremely effective when it gained air superiority and used fighter bombers to destroy German military assets and support the Allied land forces. I am referring specifically to Strategic Bombing as practiced by Bomber Command.

[Kublai]

You said: Most factory workers were slave and POWs in Nazi Germany.

 

which the graph clearly shows is not true.

OK Most factory workers were women and slaves and POWs in Nazi Germany. I do not believe too many people were emigrating to Germany in 44-45 looking for factory work. I think it would be reasonable to assume foreign workers were slaves and POWs. The main point being they were not German men in the 15 to 65 age range as they would have been at the front.

[Kublai]

Lets see, you said:

 

 

Truly an utter nonsense statement.

 

How many more Regensburgs and Schweinfurts were there in 1944? None because the 8th AF were being escorted by P-51s, with assistance by P-38s, beginning in Jan 1944.

 

And on the subject of destroying the Luftwaffe:

 

WEDNESDAY, 5 JANUARY 1944

An Eighth Air Force report concludes that the US daylight strategic bombing program against Germany will be threatened unless steps are taken to reduce the enemy's fighter force, which has increased in strength in the W as a result of step-up in production, strengthening of firepower, and transfer of a larger percentage of fighters to the Western Front.

 

You really are clueless with regards to escort operations. Just because it says, say 800 fighter escorts, were on the mission doesn't mean that those 800 flew with the bombers all the way to the target and back. The P-47s flew escort to about the German border when the P-51s took over. The P-47s picked up the returning bombers, again about the German border, relieving the P-51s of escort duty.

P51 were escorting bombers to Berlin in Jan of 44? Ok late 43 not 44 but the point was the missions were strategic bombing mission to bomb German cities. The fighters were there to protect the bombers. That they shot down enemy planes it was in the service of their mission to protect the bombers or as stated a secondary objective once their main mission to protect the bombers ended. Otherwise the logic would be bombers were sent to bomb German cites to lure German fighters up so Allied fighters could destroy them and thus defeat the enemy air force. This is clearly ludicrous.

[Kublai]

@ Kublai

 

"He did a good job at Dresden" ? are you joking ?

 

Churchill  and Harris bombed a city with no strategic importance.With 1 milion refugees : women children and old men burned alive or asphyxiated.It's sad.

The germans were champions of warcrimes of course but you do not get your revenge by killing civilians.

In the "logical insanity"  that was the strategic bombing campaign it was a "good job" as the raid completely destroyed Dresden, created a horrific fire storm and killed countless civilian. Harris believed such raids would win the war. Don't forget that Dresden was a refinement of the tactics learned from the Hamburg raid of 43. Hamburg achieved a firestorm by accident. Dresden was a deliberate effort to create a fire storm and they succeeded. It was a "good job" as far as Harris and bomber command was concerned. I was not trying to be sarcastic.The victims do not deserve our sarcasm only our remembrance.

[Blooddawn1942]

Knight made a good point. And if we are discussing such things, we can not exclude topics which many people don't want to hear.

It's a sad thing, but as You guys all should know, all of history is and was and will always be written by winners...

So no war crimes commited on allied side? Come on....thats ridiculous.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

The OP was asking why German lost WWII. My reading of WWII and especially since my exposure to IL2 is that Russia did most of the heavy lifting to defeat Germany. Germany lost because it could not defeat Russia. Russia in the end beat Russia militarily. In the West we may know about Stalingrad and that's about all. The common myth is the Allies won the war and without due credit given to the Russian effort.

 

I don't know where you live and who you are talking about when you talk about "us in the West." There is no such myths where I live... Or maybe we are not incluced in Western World? But anyway that Germany lost because it could not defeat Soviet Union (not Russia, Soviet Union btw), is also misconseption. Soviets had also bled dry by the time when war ended and it can be questioned with very good reason if they had been able to win without Western Allies. You can't really say that the reason was Soviets, and that's it.

 

 

Knight made a good point. And if we are discussing such things, we can not exclude topics which many people don't want to hear.

It's a sad thing, but as You guys all should know, all of history is and was and will always be written by winners...

So no war crimes commited on allied side? Come on....thats ridiculous.

 

I haven't seen anyone making such claims.

[Blooddawn1942]

It has been implicated.

Clever though. But some people are able to read between the lines.

[MiloMorai]

Koblai, I am the original poster and this thread took a wrong turn right from the start as no one read the link which showed 1000s upon 1000s of USAAF airplanes waiting to be disposed of at the end of WW2.

 

There was NO asking.

 

All I can say you need to do more reading.

[Rama]

And if we are discussing such things, we can not exclude topics which many people don't want to hear.

Yes we can, and we will.

Discussion about war crimes allways turn into flame wars. That's not something we wants on these forums.

 

So no war crimes commited on allied side?

There were war crimes on both sides. But this forum isn't a court and not in charge to establish the truth and neither judge these facts.

 

So please to all, leave the war crimes polemics for other places.

[Feathered_IV]

Koblai, I am the original poster and this thread took a wrong turn right from the start as no one read the link which showed 1000s upon 1000s of USAAF airplanes waiting to be disposed of at the end of WW2.

 

There was NO asking.

 

All I can say you need to do more reading.

I knew what you meant, and the vision of so much surplus materiel said it pretty well.

[Finkeren]

Koblai, I am the original poster and this thread took a wrong turn right from the start as no one read the link which showed 1000s upon 1000s of USAAF airplanes waiting to be disposed of at the end of WW2.

 

There was NO asking.

 

All I can say you need to do more reading.

I think we all got your point in the OP (a point I only partly disagree with)

 

But really, with a topic title like "Why the Germans lost WW2" are you surprised that we're now 6 pages into a discussion which has branched out into several different topics?

[Emgy]

As far as war materiel goes, a few million PPSh probably had an impact as well.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Calvamos

[Finkeren]

Not to mention the 152 mm M1937 howitzer and the Katyusha, along with numerous other artillery pieces produced in thousands upon thousands and used to level every German fortified position from Volga to Berlin.

[DD_Arthur]

Koblai, I am the original poster and this thread took a wrong turn right from the start as no one read the link which showed 1000s upon 1000s of USAAF airplanes waiting to be disposed of at the end of WW2.

 

There was NO asking.

 

All I can say you need to do more reading.

 

Milo I think we all understand the point you are trying to make and I think its led to a really interesting and fairly well mannered discussion.  Lets face it; if this was the UbiZoo people would have been accusing each other of Holocaust denial by page three!

 

However, morality aside, I think Koblai is essentially correct when it comes to the strategic bomber offensive in world war two.  The two most significant air raids so far were the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki when the US dropped the ultimate area weapon thus finally giving a realistic weight to the claim that "the bomber would always get through."

 

However, the most significant raid ( in my opinion of course ) was that on English coastal towns and south London by a handful of Gotha bombers one clear morning in May, 1917.  The effect on political and military opinion was out of all proportion to the actual material damage caused but led to that chain of events which today leaves us with several nations still deploying the ultimate doomsday weapon - the submarine launched intercontinental missile.

 

Also, and relevant to the course this discussion has taken - the RAF set out every night to cause a Hamburg or a Dresden.  What happened to those cities was the vision of airpower as laid out by Trenchard in the 'twenties made into reality. 

 

Your original point and the picture with it underlines that American genius for organization and mass production that without a shadow of a doubt meant the allies emerged victorious after a truly horrible world war lasting six years.  However, again imho only, I believe without that effort the Soviet Union would eventually have emerged the dominant nation over the whole of Europe after an unimaginable conflict lasting beyond 1950.

 

A conclusion I am very grateful we have avoided.

 

On the other hand, the poor old US taxpayer has been lumbered for decades now with what this man warned against;

 

 

Edited March 5, 2014 by arthursmedley