P-47 Thunderbolt M1 official engine mod ?

[sevenless]

Hi,

 

I just came across this bird and the story behind it. Wouldn´t that make a perfect late war engine mod for our existing P-47 D-28 and also could give you multiplayer guys something more competitive against Me 262 and 109 K4?

 

 

P-47M-1 44-21160 “Devastatin Deb” of Maj   George Bostwick and Capt   John Fahringer, 63rd   FS/ 56th   FG, Boxted, March/ April 1945 The P-47M was the fastest piston-engined fighter of World War   2, Republic building just 133 examples – dubbed ‘Sprint’ Thunderbolts and fitted with the Pratt & Whitney R-2800-57 engine rated at 2800   hp with water injection at 32,500   ft – in an attempt to give USAAF pilots a chance of catching the Me   262. The 56th   FG received the first of 108 examples of the ultimate Thunderbolt on 3   January 1945. Although the M-model proved mechanically challenging in service, 44-21160 showed its effectiveness by shooting down two Me   262s. The first was claimed on 25   March 1945 when Maj   George E   Bostwick ‘made ace’ when he shot down a jet that was attempting to land at Parchim airfield. On 5   April, an Me   262 pilot made the fatal mistake of getting into a turning fight with Capt   John C   Fahringer, who quickly despatched the jet, forcing the pilot to bail out. This was Fahringer’s fourth, and final, victory of the war.

Chapis, Stephen; Thomas, Andrew. Allied Jet Killers of World War 2 (Aircraft of the Aces) (Kindle-Positionen1927-1933). Bloomsbury Publishing. Kindle-Version. 

 

edit: Some nice additional infos here: https://www.456fis.org/P-47M.htm

 

Max speed: 470-480 mph @ 28,500 ft. Climb, at max. gross weight (including three 75 gallon drop tanks): 4.9 minutes to 15,000 feet at 2,600 rpm (1700 hp). Reportedly, the "M" could reach 20,000 feet in 5.7 minutes at military power (2,100 hp @ 2,800 rpm). 20,000 feet in 4.75 minutes in WEP (2,800 hp @ 2,800 rpm). This is with full internal fuel and ammo. No external stores or drop tanks. In other words, normal load, clean configuration. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by sevenless

[Talon_]

The M was a lot more than just a C-series engine in a D-28. It would require the P-47D-30 cockpit with internal mirror along with the dive brakes and major weight reduction, plus the new supercharger system.

[Rattlesnake]

If the P-47M still had the current Jug’s poor control at high speed and time  limitations at high power then it wouldn’t be that much better. If the current D-28 could actually pull into the black at 400 or more MPH and run balls to the wall 10-15 minutes then the 47M would fall into the “Nice but not necessary” category. 

[Legioneod]

While a do want to see a P-47 M, the 3d model is too different to be just modifications imo. The M would need to be a separate model. 

[sevenless]

6 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

While a do want to see a P-47 M, the 3d model is too different to be just modifications imo. The M would need to be a separate model. 

 

The engine installations were eventually added to the last 130 P-47D-30s from Framingdale in Sept of 1944. They were all re-designated P-47M-1-RE. It is important to note that the under-wing racks were not fitted to this aircraft. It was intended to be strictly a fighter. They were delivered in Dec. of 1944. The dorsal fins were later added as a field modification.

 

Is really a seperate 3D modell for these differences necessary ?

[Legioneod]

1 minute ago, sevenless said:

 

The engine installations were eventually added to the last 130 P-47D-30s from Framingdale in Sept of 1944. They were all re-designated P-47M-1-RE. It is important to note that the under-wing racks were not fitted to this aircraft. It was intended to be strictly a fighter. They were delivered in Dec. of 1944. The dorsal fins were later added as a field modification.

 

Is really a seperate 3D modell for these differences necessary ?

The cockpit itself is very different from the P-47 we currently have. They would have to do a complete rework of the current model if they wanted to add it as a modification.

[sevenless]

1 minute ago, Legioneod said:

The cockpit itself is very different from the P-47 we currently have. They would have to do a complete rework of the current model if they wanted to add it as a modification.

 

Ah I see. Too bad. That reduces the chances drastically that we might see the P-47-M. ?

[Legioneod]

Just now, sevenless said:

 

Ah I see. Too bad. That reduces the chances drastically that we might see the P-47-M. ?

I know, it sucks. Hopefully one day we can see it as a collectors aircraft.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Well, can we have that cool paint scheme anyway?

 

That is beautiful.

[Talon_]

11 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Well, can we have that cool paint scheme anyway?

 

That is beautiful.

Working on it 

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

33 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

 It is important to note that the under-wing racks were not fitted to this aircraft.

 

But they were.

 

[sevenless]

7 minutes ago, RoflSeal said:

But they were.

 

Obviously this site needs to be updated then.

 

https://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=Bostwick's_P-47M-1-REThunderbolt

[Ehret]

IMHO fixing the WEP timer and adding the "150 octane fuel mod" would be enough. You can already accelerate to 585km/h (50% fuel, 100% mix, no mods, everything closed except inter-cooler at 50%) and reach 591km/h (25% fuel, 4 guns) in the P-47 on the deck. (low enough so MP rises to 67"; Kuban autumn map)

[MiloMorai]

11 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Obviously this site needs to be updated then.

 

https://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=Bostwick's_P-47M-1-REThunderbolt

 

For sure. The engine wasn't the problem but the ignition harness was. The 56th flew missions in Jan and Feb with the M.

[Legioneod]

18 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

 

For sure. The engine wasn't the problem but the ignition harness was. The 56th flew missions in Jan and Feb with the M.

Interestingly enough, all of their jet kills were in the M.

[MiloMorai]

10 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Interestingly enough, all of their jet kills were in the M.

Nov 1 1944

The start of the month sees the 56th claiming their first victory against the new German Me262 Jet. The “kill” was shared between the 56th and 352nd Fighter Groups.

[Legioneod]

11 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

Nov 1 1944

The start of the month sees the 56th claiming their first victory against the new German Me262 Jet. The “kill” was shared between the 56th and 352nd Fighter Groups.

Ah, forgot about that. Was Wolly Groce that got that one wasnt it? I've even seen guncam footage of it. He shot it down while flying as well, not when it was taking off or landing.

 

EDIT: Heres the guncam of the shootdown. (8:20)

 

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Legioneod

[sevenless]

54 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Interestingly enough, all of their jet kills were in the M.

 

Additionally to the 56th kills in their Ms I found this interesting bit about what appears to be the first 262 kill of the war.

 

Prior to joining the 78th   FG in August 1944 to take command of the 82nd   FS, Maj   Joseph Myers had scored three victories flying P-38s with the 55th   FG. Following his shared Me   262 kill with 2Lt   Croy on 28   August 1944, Myers claimed his final victory on 7   October 1944, thus finishing the war just a half-kill short of ‘making ace’. Maj   Myers was flying P-47D-27 42-27339 when he shot down the 1./ KG   51 Me   262 flown by Oberfeldwebel Hieronymous Lauer on 28   August 1944 (USAAF)

 

‘Surtax Blue’ Flight was providing top cover while a number of other Thunderbolts went down to the deck. On this mission Maj Myers was flying his assigned P-47D 42-27339, with future jet killer 2Lt   Wayne Coleman on his wing. The second element was led by 1Lt   Fred Bolgert, with 2Lt   Manfred Croy in P-47D 42-75551 on his wing. While flying at 11,000   ft near Brussels, Myers caught a glimpse of what he thought was a B-26 Marauder flying at low level and went down to investigate.

 

When Myers got down to around 5000   ft he was indicating 450   mph and the unidentified aircraft began evasive action that allowed him to close to within 2000   ft above and astern. Myers later noted in his Encounter Report; ‘At this distance I could readily see the similarity between the aircraft and the recognition plates of the Me   262. With full power on and the advantage of altitude, I gradually started closing on the enemy aircraft and drew up to within 500   yards astern. I was about to open fire when the enemy pilot cut his throttle and crash-landed in a ploughed field.’ Myers may have scored hits on the engines and cockpit, and the rest of his flight strafed the jet as the pilot ran away.

 

In his Claim Report Myers stated that 2Lt   Croy had hit the German pilot, Oberfeldwebel Hieronymous Lauer from 3./ KG   51, as he ran away from the burning jet and claimed shared credit with Croy. Lauer escaped the incident uninjured, however, and returned to his unit that night. Myers and Croy were awarded a half credit each in the destruction of the first Me   262 downed by the Allies. At the end of his Claim Report, Maj Myers described the overall shape and size of the jet, noting what was similar to and different from the published recognition plates that were being used at the time.

 

He stated the chord of the wing, especially at the root, was wider than what was shown on the drawings and the nose was about the same size as that of a P-38, but not as pointed as on the recognition drawings. Where the drawings were correct were the fuselage, engine nacelles and the tail. Finally, he said the overall size of the Me   262 appeared to be the same as a P-38 and looked similar to the B-26 Marauder when viewed from directly above.

 

Prior to this engagement, Maj Myers had scored three victories flying P-38s with the 55th   FG, and he claimed his final success – a Bf   109 – on 7   October 1944, thus falling just a half-kill short of acedom. This Me   262 was Croy’s first victory, and he would later claim two Bf   109s on 26   November 1944. On 16   April 1945 Capt   Croy was shot down and killed while strafing Straubing airfield.
 

 

Chapis, Stephen; Thomas, Andrew. Allied Jet Killers of World War 2 (Aircraft of the Aces) (Kindle-Positionen285-289). Bloomsbury Publishing. Kindle-Version. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by sevenless

[Legioneod]

Just now, sevenless said:

 

Prior to joining the 78th   FG in August 1944 to take command of the 82nd   FS, Maj   Joseph Myers had scored three victories flying P-38s with the 55th   FG. Following his shared Me   262 kill with 2Lt   Croy on 28   August 1944, Myers claimed his final victory on 7   October 1944, thus finishing the war just a half-kill short of ‘making ace’. Maj   Myers was flying P-47D-27 42-27339 when he shot down the 1./ KG   51 Me   262 flown by Oberfeldwebel Hieronymous Lauer on 28   August 1944 (USAAF)

 

Chapis, Stephen; Thomas, Andrew. Allied Jet Killers of World War 2 (Aircraft of the Aces) (Kindle-Positionen285-289). Bloomsbury Publishing. Kindle-Version. 

 

I was just saying all the 56th FG jet kills were in the M. Of course, I was wrong and forgot about Wally.

 

The only fighter group that flew the M was the 56th, I know other P-47s that werent Ms got Jet kills, I was just talking about the 56th.

[sevenless]

2 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

I was just saying all the 56th FG jet kills were in the M. Of course, I was wrong and forgot about Wally.

 

The only fighter group that flew the M was the 56th, I know other P-47s that werent Ms got Jet kills, I was just talking about the 56th.

 

Oh sorry. Wasn´t meant as critizism. Was just quoting an interesting tidbit from the book. Corrected my post to avoid misunderstandings.

[IVJG4-Knight]

I'm for it .Could be fun to fly .

[Legioneod]

4 minutes ago, sevenless said:

 

Oh sorry. Wasn´t meant as critizism. Was just quoting an interesting tidbit from the book. Corrected my post to avoid misunderstandings.

 

No problem, I read it before you had added all that stuff. Very cool and interesting.

 

3 minutes ago, IVJG4-Knight said:

I'm for it .Could be fun to fly .

Yep, would be pretty sweet the fly. Would be the fastest thing in the sky besides the 262. (not at all altitudes of course, still the fastest single piston engine fighter of the war iirc.)

Edited November 29, 2018 by Legioneod

[Rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, Ehret said:

IMHO fixing the WEP timer and adding the "150 octane fuel mod" would be enough. You can already accelerate to 585km/h (50% fuel, 100% mix, no mods, everything closed except inter-cooler at 50%) and reach 591km/h (25% fuel, 4 guns) in the P-47 on the deck. (low enough so MP rises to 67"; Kuban autumn map)

The worst strike current Jug has against it is its unmaneueverability at 400mph IAS. It can’t really fulfill the role of boom and zoomet because if it dives much faster than contemporary  fighters go in *level flight* it can’t do anything. Until that is changed it’s fairly useless and I’m not interested in it anymore. I’ll reluctantly convert to P-51, and if it turns out that plane also cannot effectively boom and zoom my interest in BoBP will be over.

Edited November 29, 2018 by CMBailey

[sevenless]

2 minutes ago, CMBailey said:

The worst strike current Jug has against it is its unmaneueverability at 400mph IAS. It can’t really fulfill the role of boom and zoomet because if it dives much faster than such fighters go in *level flight* it can’t do anything. Until that is changed it’s fairly useless and I’m not interested in it anymore. I’ll reluctantly convert to P-51, and if it turns out that plane also cannot effectively boom and zoom my interest in BoBP will be over.

 

We are still about 8 months (???) away from final release. Until then I guess they will tweak a thing or two with the planes.

[Rattlesnake]

3 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

We are still about 8 months (???) away from final release. Until then I guess they will tweak a thing or two with the planes.

I’m trying to remain optimistic 

The ‘Murican planes are generally a tad heavy and have mediocre power loading. Their bread and butter in these types of games is having good speed, dive, and high speed handling, and using this offensively to come in with a large energy overhead they can shrewdly burn to force a better turning, better climbing opponent to give up a shot opportunity. (The Fw A3/A5 does this pretty well against its common foes in the current game). Defensively they can be pretty hard targets by keeping it at high speed and high G going downhill. But if the high speed/high G regime isn’t a thing in a game then they are basically useless.

Edited November 29, 2018 by CMBailey

[MiloMorai]

In the Me262 tome by Smith/Creek, pg 373, it says Lauer's 262 WNr 170069 ran out of fuel and crashed. The first actual 262 shot down by gun fire from an a/c seems to be WNr170082 by 5 Spitfire IXs of 410 Sqd RCAF on Oct 5.

[sevenless]

27 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

In the Me262 tome by Smith/Creek, pg 373, it says Lauer's 262 WNr 170069 ran out of fuel and crashed. The first actual 262 shot down by gun fire from an a/c seems to be WNr170082 by 5 Spitfire IXs of 410 Sqd RCAF on Oct 5.

 

So we have a typical example here why a claim might not necessarily be a kill. With todays access to primary data and the abillity to compare russian, german, uk and us archives many myths could be demystified. However for the US boys it obviously was a kill with 4 eye-witnesses, they did not know that the jet was low on fuel and thus crashlanding anyways.

 

The encounter you mention, is that the Me 262 from 5./ KG(J) 51 flown by Hauptmann Hans-Christoph Buttmann encountering No 401 Sqn, led by gunnery expert and 13-victory ace Sqn Ldr Rod Smith? Then either the Osprey book or your source has a typo. No 410 or 401 Sqd ?

Edited November 29, 2018 by sevenless

[LColony_Kong]

3 hours ago, CMBailey said:

I’m trying to remain optimistic 

The ‘Murican planes are generally a tad heavy and have mediocre power loading. Their bread and butter in these types of games is having good speed, dive, and high speed handling, and using this offensively to come in with a large energy overhead they can shrewdly burn to force a better turning, better climbing ability to give up a shot opportunity. (The Fw A3/A5 does this pretty well against its common foes in the current game). Defensively they can be pretty hard targets by keeping it at high speed and high G going downhill. But if the high speed/high G regime isn’t a thing in a game then they are basically useless.

Additionally American planes generally get the shaft in video games. Every sim since 1998 has had just about every off kilter super-rare hot rod from the Russians and Germans. Especially the Germans. 

 

-you always see La-7s in every single flight sim. Despite being introduced not until sept-44 and in tiny numbers. 

 

-you always get K-4's and 190 D-9s. Des[ite K-4's only making up 1 in 4 109s as of jan 1945, and not being introduced until mid-oct 44. And you always get 2100bhp 190 Dora's, despite not showing up at all until sept-44, and not showing up at 2100hp until november. And they always have performance as though they had the non-production engine gap seal. Until nov-44 the best a 190D could do was 1900bhp. initial models only 1700. By 1945 there were only 60 MW50 equipped doras out of 180. 

 

American planes coming out a England operated 150 grade fuel and boost settings exclusively from June-44 onward. That is every mustang in England with around 1900bhp. Yet we never get this in any game. 

 

And for some reason we have a 18lbs boost spit 9, when the spit 14 came out and oct43 and by BoBP there were lots of other spit marks with similar performance. Hell the Germans even get 262's

 

 

When BoBP comes out, every server that isnt TAW will be nothing but K4s and D9s. And it will be nothing but 1.98ata K4s. 

[GP*]

If the devs want current American / USAAF-airplane-enthusiast players to recommend this game to their fellow American / USAAF-airplane-enthusiast friends, issues like this need to be fixed. Yes, I’m saying that the devs getting more $$$ from our market is dependent upon them getting this right. 

 

No one is asking for uber performance, just a bit of common sense when it comes to interpreting flight manual limits and historically-correct fuels. 

[MiloMorai]

In EAW the German planes were crap.

[Rattlesnake]

18 minutes ago, Go_Pre said:

If the devs want current American / U Yes, I’m saying that the devs getting more $$$ from our market is dependent upon them getting this right. 

 

I’ve been advocating Il-2: BoX as THE game to get in to for anyone interested in the genre ever since I started playing it. This was based on the graphics, flight feel, and overall good BALANCE in previous incarnations. That’s on hiatus until I see start some light at the end of the tunnel regarding the American planes in Bodenplatte.

Edited November 30, 2018 by CMBailey

[ShamrockOneFive]

49 minutes ago, Fumes said:

Additionally American planes generally get the shaft in video games. Every sim since 1998 has had just about every off kilter super-rare hot rod from the Russians and Germans. Especially the Germans. 

 

-you always see La-7s in every single flight sim. Despite being introduced not until sept-44 and in tiny numbers. 

 

-you always get K-4's and 190 D-9s. Des[ite K-4's only making up 1 in 4 109s as of jan 1945, and not being introduced until mid-oct 44. And you always get 2100bhp 190 Dora's, despite not showing up at all until sept-44, and not showing up at 2100hp until november. And they always have performance as though they had the non-production engine gap seal. Until nov-44 the best a 190D could do was 1900bhp. initial models only 1700. By 1945 there were only 60 MW50 equipped doras out of 180. 

 

American planes coming out a England operated 150 grade fuel and boost settings exclusively from June-44 onward. That is every mustang in England with around 1900bhp. Yet we never get this in any game. 

 

And for some reason we have a 18lbs boost spit 9, when the spit 14 came out and oct43 and by BoBP there were lots of other spit marks with similar performance. Hell the Germans even get 262's

 

 

When BoBP comes out, every server that isnt TAW will be nothing but K4s and D9s. And it will be nothing but 1.98ata K4s. 

 

It's a fair point about some of the rarer German types getting included while the Western Allied types that were rarer seem to be seen less in the last couple of generations of flight simulators. The trick is likely in the documentation and it seems that German aircraft have some of the best documentation out there, especially translated into English, whenever I go looking for stuff.

 

There's also the point to be made about historical relevance that transcend numbers. There may have been small numbers of Bf109K and FW190Ds kicking around but they were pretty much what the Allies were fighting against. When I go through books like the RAF 2nd TAF Series there are numerous pilot accounts about running into the long nosed D-9s. They may have been low numbered runs but they were also used as tip of the spear types. The same can be said for the La-7, although 5,753 produced is not a small number.

 

I think its a disservice to knock down some of these interesting German types when really what most of us want to see is just more on the other side too. The Spitfire IX was absolutely the right choice as its the bread and butter of the 2nd TAF September 1944 to April 1945. More squadrons with this and the essentially identical Spitfire XVI than anything else. Take that away and historical scenarios get a lot more difficult. Do I want to see a +25lb boost mod though? Oh yes and the documentation is good. Spitfire XIV? I think we'll see that as a Collector Plane. Those are pretty much the only Spitfire marks of any relevance to this battle (IX/XVI and XIV).

31 minutes ago, CMBailey said:

I’ve been advocating Il-2: BoX as THE game to get in to for anyone interested in the genre ever since I started playing it. This was based on the graphics, flight feel, and overall good BALANCE in previous incarnations. That’s on hiatus until I see start some light at the end of the tunnel regarding the American planes in Bodenplatte.

Just like its not a great idea to judge a book by its cover, it's also not a great idea to judge the latest IL-2 content package before its done. We're probably only at half way through development and IL-2: Battle of Kuban felt like just a slightly more interesting Battle of Moscow content release until we got to March of this year where it all came together.

 

Also, this is a simulator so balance is not what we should be interested in.

 

If there's something wrong with the P-47... get the data together and point it out. If I find anything I'm going to send it to the developers myself but whenever I go looking for actual information its either not there OR it supports what's already there.

[Gambit21]

7 hours ago, Legioneod said:

The cockpit itself is very different from the P-47 we currently have. They would have to do a complete rework of the current model if they wanted to add it as a modification.

 

I could alter the external 3D model is a single sitting I think - no problem.

No new model would be necessary.

 

It's the cockpit that's the problem, and the real time suck.

[ShamrockOneFive]

7 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

Ah I see. Too bad. That reduces the chances drastically that we might see the P-47-M. ?

 

The P-47M may be out of easy reach but I think there is still some hope of a halfway measure. The P-47D, going back to the early D-5 versions, were often modified by crew chiefs with higher boost settings. There's got to be documentation out there for a higher boost option. Even if it comes with a penalty of higher heat and overheating related issues.

 

If there's a good historical option (like you tried to find here) and there's documentation out there then I'd love to see it as an option. This is important especially for these 1944 and 1945 types that really saw both sides pushing the limits.

[PainGod85]

Just now, Gambit21 said:

 

I could alter the external 3D model is a single sitting I think - no problem.

No new model would be necessary.

 

It's the cockpit that's the problem, and the real time suck.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the M did have fewer aerials as well as the D-30's dive flaps. Additionally, most were fitted with the fin fillet.

[LColony_Kong]

9 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

It's a fair point about some of the rarer German types getting included while the Western Allied types that were rarer seem to be seen less in the last couple of generations of flight simulators. The trick is likely in the documentation and it seems that German aircraft have some of the best documentation out there, especially translated into English, whenever I go looking for stuff.

 

There's also the point to be made about historical relevance that transcend numbers. There may have been small numbers of Bf109K and FW190Ds kicking around but they were pretty much what the Allies were fighting against. When I go through books like the RAF 2nd TAF Series there are numerous pilot accounts about running into the long nosed D-9s. They may have been low numbered runs but they were also used as tip of the spear types. The same can be said for the La-7, although 5,753 produced is not a small number.

 

I think its a disservice to knock down some of these interesting German types when really what most of us want to see is just more on the other side too. The Spitfire IX was absolutely the right choice as its the bread and butter of the 2nd TAF September 1944 to April 1945. More squadrons with this and the essentially identical Spitfire XVI than anything else. Take that away and historical scenarios get a lot more difficult. Do I want to see a +25lb boost mod though? Oh yes and the documentation is good. Spitfire XIV? I think we'll see that as a Collector Plane. Those are pretty much the only Spitfire marks of any relevance to this battle (IX/XVI and XIV).

During the later half of 1944 most of the German fighters were not D9s or K4s, and certainly not the ones people think of when they imagine those planes. 

 

Most of the 109s from mid-44 up until 1945 were G variants. Most of them G-14s of the non-AS variety. Almost all 190s were A variants, whose performance was little changed from the A-3 we started with in this game. Notice I didnt say "not changed."  

 

K4s and D9s showed up absurdly late in the ETO airwar, and in too little numbers. They were the definition of too little to late. I dont consider the P-47M to be a significant plane either by the same standards. Considering that the Luftwaffe was basically totally imploded by Feb-Mar 1945, and doomed well before that....they saw little action even by the standards of late war planes. 

 

Quotes of long nosed D-9s are about as reliable as Sherman tankers claiming everything was a Tiger. We have the hard numbers. There were hardly any D9s even by 1945, especially of the 2100hp type most people only know about. 

 

As for the La-7. I dont recall the exact numbers or dates, but IIRC something like a mere 30 planes showed up in late sept 44. And then they were removed from the lines due to reliability issues, not coming online again until I think December. Large numbers does not mean large contribution. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Fumes

[Legioneod]

6 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I could alter the external 3D model is a single sitting I think - no problem.

No new model would be necessary.

 

It's the cockpit that's the problem, and the real time suck.

 

Cockpit is what I meant. Externally there was pretty much no change at all save for dive flaps, not all P-47M had the dorsal fin so that'd just be optional.

 

5 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

The P-47M may be out of easy reach but I think there is still some hope of a halfway measure. The P-47D, going back to the early D-5 versions, were often modified by crew chiefs with higher boost settings. There's got to be documentation out there for a higher boost option. Even if it comes with a penalty of higher heat and overheating related issues.

 

If there's a good historical option (like you tried to find here) and there's documentation out there then I'd love to see it as an option. This is important especially for these 1944 and 1945 types that really saw both sides pushing the limits.

 

Higher boost for the D-28 would need 150 fuel. With 150 fuel it ran at 70" and could run 65" with or without water. Combat would be the same as it is now at 52".

Edited November 30, 2018 by Legioneod

[Ehret]

27 minutes ago, Go_Pre said:

No one is asking for uber performance, just a bit of common sense when it comes to interpreting flight manual limits and historically-correct fuels. 

 

The major issues with the P-47D as now (imho) are:

- water injection should work at 64" for 15m straight without pauses (a problem at lower altitudes)

- there aren't turbo failures like pulsating and damming

- at fully (100%) extended flaps weird stuff happens

 

For P-47 "performance woes" - do anyone else test the thing in the sim?

On the deck (Kuban autumn, 50% fuel, no mods, closed everything but inter-cooler at 50%, rpm around 2400) the Thunderbolt reaches 585km/h; try 7000m alt the same settings she gets to 490km/h indicated. Keep rpm under 2550rpm and use MP other than 64" and the timer extends greatly. You can run engine at 52" @ 2510 for freaking 35m and there will be extra few minutes until the engine finally ceases. This allows climb of around 2250ft/m so it's possible to get to 15-20k ft in reasonable time and have the engine (timers) and water supply practically fresh. If you are willing to use some water the climbs increase over 3000ft/m.

 

That's pretty good for 6t big plane - a heavy single engine fighter, basically.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Just now, Fumes said:

During the later half of 1944 most of the German fighters were not D9s or K4s, and certainly not the ones people think of when they imagine those planes. 

 

Most of the 109s up until 1945 were G variants. Most of them G-14s of the non-AS variety. Almost all 190s were A variants, whose performance was little changed from the A-3 we started with in this game. Notice I didnt say "not changed."  

 

K4s and D9s showed up absurdly late in the ETO airwar, and in too little numbers. They were the definition of too little to late. I dont consider the P-47M to be a significant plane either by the same standards. Considering that the Luftwaffe was basically totally imploded by Feb-Mar 1945, and doomed well before that....they saw little action even by the standards of late war planes. 

 

Quotes of long nosed D-9s are about as reliable as Sherman tankers claiming everything was a Tiger. We have the hard numbers. There were hardly any D9s even by 1945, especially of the 2100hp type most people only know about. 

 

As for the La-7. I dont recall the exact numbers or dates, but IIRC something like a mere 30 planes showed up in late sept 44. And then they were removed from the lines due to reliability issues, not coming online again until I think December. Large numbers does not mean large contribution. 

 

It's a good thing that the developers did model those important volume models too and they did them well. We've got a FW190A-8 which I assumed would kind of be under the radar for most but be an extremely important model as the developers have rightly been able to give us an A-8, an F-8 and even a G-8 out of that aircraft. That's the kind of bread and butter type I'd want for historical scenarios too.

 

However, even with the small numbers of the rarer types, they have relevancy. If I wanted to do another Tempest campaign like I did with Stormclouds 2.0 then I need both FW190D-9 and Bf109K-4 to be there in the day to day operations within that late winter/spring 1945 timeframe. That's what the Tempests were all too frequently up against. The numbers argument is one thing but I think relevancy is another and if a few of the key units on the frontlines during that time were using them then I really want to see them represented. Which they are.

 

The same is with the La-7. It's relevancy in 1944? If the devs were doing a late 1944 scenario then I see little point in the La-7. The numbers are too low but it's the relevancy which is low too as you point out. However, if we were to say do the lead up to the Battle of Berlin it becomes far more important as some key front line squadrons were using it (and famously shooting down a Me-262) and I'd absolutely want it.

[Legioneod]

2 minutes ago, Ehret said:

 

The major issues with the P-47D as now (imho) are:

- water injection should work at 64" for 15m straight without pauses (a problem at lower altitudes)

- there aren't turbo failures like pulsating and damming

- at fully (100%) extended flaps weird stuff happens

 

For P-47 "performance woes" - do anyone else test the thing in the sim?

On the deck (Kuban autumn, 50% fuel, no mods, closed everything but inter-cooler at 50%, rpm around 2400) the Thunderbolt reaches 585km/h; try 7000m alt the same settings she gets to 490km/h indicated. Keep rpm under 2550rpm and use MP other than 64" and the timer extends greatly. You can run engine at 52" @ 2510 for freaking 35m and there will be extra few minutes until the engine finally ceases. This allows climb of around 2250ft/m so it's possible to get to 15-20k ft in reasonable time and have the engine (timers) and water supply practically fresh. If you are willing to use some water the climbs increase over 3000ft/m.

 

That's pretty good for 6t big plane - a heavy single engine fighter, basically.

 

I understand that there are workarounds for the current modeling limitations but we really shouldn't have to go through all that. It should run as it historically did without having to play with the settings.