What will counter the K4 up high?

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Fighters looking to bounce on ground pounders will and already do lurk around 8-12 kft. P-47 (or 190, or 109...) can bounce them from higher up. 26 kft is likely impractically high though.

Edited November 28, 2018 by LeLv76_Erkki

[Ehret]

3 hours ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

The tactical war is on the ground and above the trees.  A fighter patrolling at 26k is useless to a ground attacker or a friendly formation of troops.  Without strategic bombers those altitudes serve no purpose but jousting for fun.  These aircraft were used outside of that context in reality and will have to be in the sim as well.  At least in MP that isn't just dogfighting for the sake of it.

 

You are overlooking that the altitude can be changed quickly; especially downwards (upwards too - you can exceed 3500ft/m climb when on water injection). The 23-26k ft allows for fast cruise and reduces odds of being intercepted by a lot. You don't have to zoom immediately, thought for safety it'd be preferable. You can move over the target area, do reconnaissance there, wait for the attackers, provide cover with great initial energy advantage. The enemy is usually eager to engage as quickly as possible; will try to chase for few minutes at least. That's good because it will take the enemy away from attackers thus protecting them. Finally, the altitude provides fastest route to more distant targets so you can strafe them unexpected.

 

Once the P-38 will get released tactical possibilities will broaden. The Lighting should be able to load even more stores then the Thunderbolt and still be able to go to altitude . Then mixed forces of P-38 attackers and escorts (P-47, P-51, Spits) all at once will be able to arrive at +23k ft. I checked how the P-47 climbs with the 2500lb of bombs, 4 guns and extra ammo for strafing and 50% fuel; 2000ft/m on combat power @ 2510rpm which can be done for half of hour, or +2500ft/m on the water injected combat power @ 2510 which lasts as long the water supply.

 

At 10-15km distance from the target fighter-bombers could initiate a shallow dive to shorten the time to release of ordnance. Then use gained velocity to escape, zoom, defend or fight.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Ehret

[CountZero]

3 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

Fighters looking to bounce on ground pounders will and already do lurk around 8-12 kft. P-47 (or 190, or 109...) can bounce them from higher up. 26 kft is likely impractically high though.

 

and this works online like a charm even with airplanes not ment to fly high

[Ehret]

42 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Ground attackers will be at 3K (feet) or less.  Medium bombers doing tactical work will be between 3K and 12K.  Dive bombers will be at around 12K, although by 1944 nobody was doing dive bombing on the western front.  You are at 26K.  First, I doubt that you even spot the EA.  Second, if you do, what you are proposing is a 14K - 25K nose dive followed by a 10K zoom (I question the 10K zoom but will let others with more info confirm or refute).

 

Current P-47 (50% fuel, no mods) can zoom to +2600m (8.5k ft) from recovery at 850km/h when level flight is achieved under 100m. At 900km/h it can reach 10K. For the "26k ft plane" the P-47M it would be easier.

 

Of course it will be seldom done in practice. Needs too much patience; going straight into a fur-ball or mud-digging offers much quicker satisfaction.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Ehret

[Panthera]

18 hours ago, blackram said:

And I dont think thats wrong. K4 was bettter in every way. The problem was that germans didnt have many experienced pilots left plus the numbers were on the allied side, by large margin..also shortage of betetr fuel and parts in general crippled the already shaken luftwaffe. What we can do in MP we can limit Me262, tempest and K4 numbers.

 

I agree, which is also the reason I believe the Spitfire XIV needs to be added as its the real counter to the K4. 

 

 

[Warpig]

4 minutes ago, Panthera said:

 

I agree, which is also the reason I believe the Spitfire XIV needs to be added as its the real counter to the K4. 

 

 

The Mustang and P38 isn't even in the game yet. Why can't they counter the 109 K4? And if the Spit XIV comes, what counters that? When does this end?

 

God forbid Germany has a fighting chance. The Allies will never be happy until they have post-war P51H's and MK. 24 Spits stomping on German WWII planes.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Warpig

[TWC_Ace]

4 minutes ago, Warpig said:

The Mustang and P38 isn't even in the game yet. Why can't they counter the 109 K4? And if the Spit XIV comes, what counters that? When does this end?

 

God forbid Germany has a fighting chance. The Allies will never be happy until they have post-war P51H's and MK. 24 Spits.

In which area you think P51D and P38J will be better than 1.98Ata K4? I just dont see where...

Spitfire MK XIV would be on par with 1.98Ata K4.

Edited November 28, 2018 by blackram

[Warpig]

3 minutes ago, blackram said:

In which area you think P51D and P38J will be better than 1.98Ata K4? I just dont see where...

Spitfire MK XIV would be on par with 1.98Ata K4.

I don't know. I'm not one of the "experts". I just want to see how that matchup plays out before bringing out the pitchforks.

 

The devs picked this plane set for a reason. And I trust they have the right intentions in mind.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Warpig

[Panthera]

Just now, Warpig said:

The Mustang and P38 isn't even in the game yet. Why can't they counter them? And if the Spit XIV comes, what counters that? When does this end?

 

Well the P-51 & P-38 will face basically the same problem as the P-47, the K-4 will outturn & outclimb these two quite easily as well, and since neither has any real speed advantage the K4  remain the top dog. 

 

Also don't get me wrong, I don't want to see the Spit Mk.XIV added just to "dethrone" the K4, I want to see it added because it was actually there and in numbers. I mean we got 1.98ata K4's & Me262s, so why not the Spitfire Mk.XIV?

[RedKestrel]

8 minutes ago, Warpig said:

The Mustang and P38 isn't even in the game yet. Why can't they counter the 109 K4? And if the Spit XIV comes, what counters that? When does this end?

 

God forbid Germany has a fighting chance. The Allies will never be happy until they have post-war P51H's and MK. 24 Spits stomping on German WWII planes.

I mean, the Germans are going to have all their best fighters available with none of the realities of the late war situation regarding fuel shortages, construction quality, or low pilot numbers and quality. Even without 1.98ATA the K4 is a beast of a craft. The Dora is going to be brutal. The Me-262 will be borderline untouchable. Even a Spit XIV doesn't change the fact of Germany having  more than a 'fighting chance'. If online numbers stay at a similar level for axis vs. allies as they are now, I expect the Luftwaffe to be curbstomping the allies on a regular basis. If numbers even out I think it will be a coin-flip for the winners, based on pilot skill and tactics. Nothing like the completely asymmetric situation faced by the Germans in late 1944/45. 

Literally no one is asking for post war planes, just planes that were contemporary to the K4 with 1.98 ATA. Which everyone must admit is a late war plane, of the same vintage as the Spit XIV. The closest thing I've seen to people asking for post war allied planes is a few guys talking about Gloster Meteors, which is really just pie in the sky stuff anyway.

Anyway allied players will learn to use their craft to what advantages they have, just like they do now with soviet planes. I expect there will be a lot of 1.98ATA  K4 pilots getting owned by guys flying Spit IXs and Jugs, just like there's a lot of guys in 109F4s getting wrecked by LaGG-3 jockeys. A high performance plane can't completely trump skill, aggression and tactics.

[Panthera]

11 minutes ago, Warpig said:

The devs picked this plane set for a reason. And I trust they have the right intentions in mind.

 

Well the devs probably reasoned that since the Allies got the best dogfighter (Spitf IX) and the fastest prop (Tempest) then they will have plenty of options, which isn't really wrong either, it just demands more coordinated play on the Allied side. I do however not think they knew at the time how capable a properly modelled K4 really is, because if they did I certainly can't understand why they didn't pick out the Spitfire Mk.XIV as a certain addition, collector plane or not. Perhaps they had planned on keeping the K4 (& Me262) very limited on maps I don't know (?) 

 

I just know that right after I saw both the K4 & Me262 on the list of featured aircraft on the LW side I was rather surprised that the XIV wasn't on the Allied list.

[Warpig]

1 minute ago, RedKestrel said:

Anyway allied players will learn to use their craft to what advantages they have, just like they do now with soviet planes. I expect there will be a lot of 1.98ATA  K4 pilots getting owned by guys flying Spit IXs and Jugs, just like there's a lot of guys in 109F4s getting wrecked by LaGG-3 jockeys. A high performance plane can't completely trump skill, aggression and tactics.

Exactly this.

 

I say we give the devs the benefit of the doubt and let this current plane set play out. Give the Allies their correct fuel types, and engine performance, the Spit IX its 25lb boost, etc.

 

One side is always going to have a plane that the players naturally excel at. It's just it always seems if it's on the German side, everyone starts a riot. So then what... Allies get the Spit XIV that then will excel in every area, and the K4 will be the underdog. Then what comes next for Germany? It's a never ending cycle.

[mumbojumbo]

24 minutes ago, Panthera said:

 

Well the P-51 & P-38 will face basically the same problem as the P-47, the K-4 will outturn & outclimb these two quite easily as well, and since neither has any real speed advantage the K4  remain the top dog. 

 

Also don't get me wrong, I don't want to see the Spit Mk.XIV added just to "dethrone" the K4, I want to see it added because it was actually there and in numbers. I mean we got 1.98ata K4's & Me262s, so why not the Spitfire Mk.XIV?

The xiv feels a bit, under represented (still not sure that's the right term), not featuring in other sims that I can see. It was a part of the air war for a year or more and was a well respected craft. Its not balance its just a great plane from the time. 

[Panthera]

15 minutes ago, Warpig said:

Exactly this.

 

I say we give the devs the benefit of the doubt and let this current plane set play out. Give the Allies their correct fuel types, and engine performance, the Spit IX its 25lb boost, etc.

 

One side is always going to have a plane that the players naturally excel at. It's just it always seems if it's on the German side, everyone starts a riot. So then what... Allies get the Spit XIV that then will excel in every area, and the K4 will be the underdog. Then what comes next for Germany? It's a never ending cycle.

 

Again a big reason I want to see the Spitfire XIV added is because it was actually there, fighting.

 

Also I don't think you need to worry about the Spitfire XIV suddenly turning things up side down as eventhough the XIV is superior the K4 will still be a mouthful even for it, and the Germans will also still have a major advantage with the Me262. Properly flown the Me262 should be the best fighter ingame without a doubt, we saw that in the previous installment where it's dominance let to it basically being removed from all server maps. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Panthera

[Warpig]

Won't the Mustang and P38 win in raw speed over the K4?

Edited November 28, 2018 by Warpig

[Ribbon]

13 minutes ago, Warpig said:

The Mustang and P38 isn't even in the game yet. Why can't they counter the 109 K4? And if the Spit XIV comes, what counters that? When does this end?

 

God forbid Germany has a fighting chance. The Allies will never be happy until they have post-war P51H's and MK. 24 Spits stomping on German WWII planes.

Lol, fighting chance!

So Axis were underdog so far?

 

Axis planes dominated so far and now with K-4 they will be mostly untouchable (no advantages to use against it in defensive way either, it's God mode).

And as Panthera said Spit mk.xiv was actually there!

 

If you haven't fighting chance so far than you won't have it in K-4, 262, F-16 or USS Enterprise.

Or Allies always have to be underdog cos some 109-only pilots can't win the fight if they are not in uber planes.

 

Maybe with Spit mk.xiv MP will be more balanced, a lot of Hartmanns will switch side and go for super-uber Spit mk.XIV.

 

 

[Panthera]

9 minutes ago, Tarks91 said:

The xiv feels a bit, under represented (still not sure that's the right term), not featuring in other sims that I can see. It was a part of the air war for a year or more and was a well respected craft. Its not balance its just a great plane from the time. 

 

Definitely, it's a real shame that we haven't gotten to experience flying this aircraft virtually yet. 

[MiloMorai]

45 minutes ago, Warpig said:

The devs picked this plane set for a reason. And I trust they have the right intentions in mind.

 

I don't know about that. They included an a/c that was barely operational > 1.98ata K-4. The 1.80ata K-4 can match and even exceed the Allied opposition.

 

 

[Panthera]

1 minute ago, Warpig said:

Won't the Mustang and P38 win in raw speed over the K4?

 

No, the K4 is faster than both. Only a 75" Hg P-51 would better the K4 in speed, but it would still be hopelessly outmatched in climb & turn rate.

[mumbojumbo]

All this being said, I'm massively looking forward to the tempest and p38. Both fantastic looking planes with good performance in every area. What was the allowed bomb load for the p38j? 

[Rattlesnake]

22 hours ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

My initial impressions are that it's very good at medium to high speeds, dependant on altitude.

In my dive testing at over 400mph IAS the K4 and P-47 have about the same elevator authority. If one is willing to heavily use the trim the 109 can actually pull MORE G, into the blackout. Whereas even full nose-up trim doesn’t do that for the Jug. I am currently in the process of trying to re-find some documentation on the 47 I’ve seen before that reports on Jug stick forces as compared to several other planes. I’m certain the Jug should be able to pull as much G as the pilot can bear at 400 IAS, and the inability to do so to either make a shot or do high speed evasive maneuvers is semi-crippling for a plane whose major advantage is dive speed.

[Warpig]

13 minutes ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

Maybe with Spit mk.xiv MP will be more balanced, a lot of Hartmanns will switch side and go for super-uber Spit mk.XIV.

This is why the current plane set sounds better. The Spit XIV advocates don't want balance. They want a plane that can climb, speed, turn, and dive better than the K4.

 

Match-ups are an important thing in these games. And when one single plane holds all the cards, the fun and tactics become irrelevant.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

12 hours ago, Ehret said:

 

You can zoom by 10k ft in the Thunderbolt; the tactic would be to patrol at the 26k, do very fast bounces and climb back. It will not bring a good gun solution every time but distract the enemy and help your fighters which are lower. That's a teamwork; it's not plane's fault it doesn't happen too often. 

 

Wait...  I thought that was called "Hartman-ing".

Now its teamwork!?!

 

[mumbojumbo]

6 minutes ago, Warpig said:

This is why the current plane set sounds better. The Spit XIV advocates don't want balance. They want a plane that can climb, speed, turn, and dive better than the K4.

 

Match-ups are an important thing in these games. And when one single plane holds all the cards, the fun and tactics become irrelevant.

Eh? Have you forgotten the 262? Will be the fastest thing going. And the k4 vs xiv will be a good fight. 

[Warpig]

I wish they didn't even add the 262. It's only good at going in straight lines anyways. I would have rather this game stayed with prop planes.

 

Anybody with good SA should not have a problem dodging 262's. I would have rather seen the Ta152.

[=621=Samikatz]

6 minutes ago, Warpig said:

Match-ups are an important thing in these games. And when one single plane holds all the cards, the fun and tactics become irrelevant.

So like the K-4 when we don't have historical settings/planes for the allies? You could equally say that Spit XIV opposers just want their planes to be the one that out-turn, out-dive... etc

 

Any plane that served in any significant capacity in the theater has a right to be in the game, imo. The XIV should be part of Bodenplatte because hundreds served in the ETO

[Rattlesnake]

18 minutes ago, Warpig said:

This is why the current plane set sounds better. The Spit XIV advocates don't want balance. They want a plane that can climb, speed, turn, and dive better than the K4.

 

Match-ups are an important thing in these games. And when one single plane holds all the cards, the fun and tactics become irrelevant.

Thank you. A lot of people in these games are pretty bad about skewing the truth when it comes to balance. If the enemy plane is even marginally faster they’ll tout speed as all the end-all, be-all, while being cagey about relative maneuverability, a slightly important matter. If it can be shown that their plane out-runs out-turns out-everythings the enemy they’ll start talking about other attributes that are hard to quantify. If nothing else works they’ll essentially start arguing that all planes are equal because they can all make one pass, haul ass attacks on unaware opponents below them. Just the human condition.

Edited November 28, 2018 by CMBailey

[=621=Samikatz]

1 minute ago, Warpig said:

I wish they didn't even add the 262. It's only good at going in straight lines anyways. I would have rather this game stayed with prop planes.

 

Anybody with good SA should not have a problem dodging 262's. I would have rather seen the Ta152.

 

The 262 saw significant service as a bomber in the theater. The Ta-152 was a historically irrelevant footnote

[Warpig]

2 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

The 262 saw significant service as a bomber in the theater. The Ta-152 was a historically irrelevant footnote

As a bomber. But people still use the 262 as an excuse to say that the Germans will have some super plane, so they should have one too.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Warpig

[Rattlesnake]

Gentlemen, obviously with 262s and Tempests etc. server managers are going to have to limit numbers of the most obviously superior types to an extent so that other things get flown. We should be quite glad to see the devs adding as many types as possible, it sells copies if nothing else.

19 minutes ago, Warpig said:

 

 

Anybody with good SA should not have a problem dodging 262's. I would have rather seen the Ta152.

In our icon-less environments of semi-blind pilots the 262 will go from nearly invisible to firing range in a twinkling. Of course that is a double edged sword: 262 pilots may have difficulty spotting , identifying and orienting on targets before they overrun them.

 In some other games the 262 can actually be a formidable  1v1 E-fighter versus props because it starts with 100+mph advantage and has quite good E retention. Of course dropping below 500mph can leave the jet vulnerable to interlopers entering the fight, there’s the rub.

Edited November 28, 2018 by CMBailey

[kissklas]

6 minutes ago, Warpig said:

As a bomber. But people still use it as an excuse to say that the Germans will have some super plane, so they should have one too.

The 262 had several victory claims in the summer of 44, and by the actual bodenplatte operation in january 45 the JG7 jet fighter squadron had been operational for weeks so it wasn't just used for bombing. And to be clear, I mostly fly allied planes. I think the 262 is a cool and relevant addition to the game.

[CrazyDuck]

5 minutes ago, Warpig said:

I wish they didn't even add the 262. It's only good at going in straight lines anyways.

 

That's actually a misconception. The 262 was actually quite capable dogfighter. Of course, for 262 pilot it was always better to utilize speed and  to resort to dogfight only when he absolutely had no other options to survive, but this doesn't mean the aircraft maneouvered like an Exxon Valdez. It had wing loading in range of Fw 190D, 109K or P-47D, with leading edge slats over the entire wingspan. Sure the delicate jets imposing severe acceleration limitations take their toll on the maneouverability, but still - had it faced the Gloster Meteor, the Airacomet and similar contemporary fighters, it would be more than competitive in pure dogfighting.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

53 minutes ago, Warpig said:

Won't the Mustang and P38 win in raw speed over the K4?

Mustang is faster at high altitudes by small bit and if it has the -3 engine on par at around 4.5km. P-38 is not much quicker then the Spitfire LF Mk IX in speed, much slower then even the P-47 and P-51 at ~25,000ft

Edited November 28, 2018 by RoflSeal

[Ribbon]

28 minutes ago, Warpig said:

This is why the current plane set sounds better. The Spit XIV advocates don't want balance. They want a plane that can climb, speed, turn, and dive better than the K4.

 

Match-ups are an important thing in these games. And when one single plane holds all the cards, the fun and tactics become irrelevant.

K-4 now is what are you against for!

With K-4 and 262 allied side is undermouse not underdog.

 

Spit mk.xiv vs. K-4 is good matchup.

Also mk.xiv was there in decent numbers.

Also 150octane fuel was also there from mid '44.

We can't rewrite history.

From 1944 allies for the first time had equal or better planes.

So far allied side was underdog.

 

Saying this as a guy who fly both sides even i'm frequently forced to fly allies cos MP is overcrowded with axis.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

1 minute ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

From 1944 allies for the first time had equal or better planes.

So far allied side was underdog.

 

1943 La5FN?

 

[Warpig]

Nobody is trying to rewrite history. The Tempest, Mustang, and P38 haven't even been released yet, and everybody is already writing them off.

[Ehret]

39 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

Wait...  I thought that was called "Hartman-ing".

Now its teamwork!?!

 

If it's done with communications and agreed upon a plan other than just racing for kills, yes. Very, very unlike your typical Axis pilot and you should be able to spot the difference. Or, maybe not.

[mumbojumbo]

I think some people are forgetting about all the strategic targets and the fact that they're not going to blow themselves up. There's a huge tonnage of bombs that need to be dropped for teams to win, and in this regard I see the Germans being on the defensive. In this scenario if ground pounders are escorted then they'll have a hard choice between either the attacker or the pursuit plane, potentially wiping out their advantage. 

 

Still, seeing an xiv in a beautiful, populated sim like this is a dream. I'm sure with all the possibilities that this late war scenario has opened that we'll get another couple collector planes. And if mission makers/server hosts want to restrict certain planes, the  everyones going to have to lump it. 

[Rattlesnake]

4 minutes ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

From 1944 allies for the first time had equal or better planes.

 

 

 

Advantage switched back and forth a few times. The P-47D way faster than the ships it faced at typical altitudes in 1943. The Fw-190A definitely took the advantage for a little while earlier, but the Spit IX took it back. 150 octane and other late factors allowed Allies in ETO to extend rough parity to the end of the wear against hot but increasingly rare German aircraft. If the war had gone on a little while longer you would have seen P-51Hs appearing to counter the 109K menace, and P-80s to counter the 262 menace.

 

3 minutes ago, Warpig said:

Nobody is trying to rewrite history. The Tempest, Mustang, and P38 haven't even been released yet, and everybody is already writing them off.

It's hard to see how the P-51 and P-38 won't at least be slightly inferior to the 109K in most respects at typical combat altitudes in the game. If nothing changes they will boast slightly less performance and vastly less time at their max performance levels. I remain optimistic that something will change but that is the situation.

[Ehret]

2 minutes ago, Warpig said:

Nobody is trying to rewrite history. The Tempest, Mustang, and P38 haven't even been released yet, and everybody is already writing them off.

 

That's a group thinking of which Goebbels would be proud. We had similar but kinda reversed phenomena before when the release of the La-5FN was imminent. Instead of whining against a new stronger Allied plane now we just have exultation about new stronger Axis plane.