Can a P-47 Dogfight?

[Legioneod]

Fun little fight I had in Berloga using the P-47. Unfortunately my gunnery is horrible so I didn't get the kill and ended up making a fatal error.

Good fight though, was really fun.

 

 

What range do bullets disappear? I know I was shooting pretty far but my bullets never even reached him, they disappeared before they hit him.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Legioneod

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

I think that's the tracers burning out that you see.  My guess is that the bullets de-spawn after they lose enough velocity to do more than cause a large bruise if it hit an unprotected person.

I could be wrong and they fall all the way to the ground, or they have an arbitrary de-spawn distance set. 

 

Nice turning-and-burning until you got below 3000ft though.  P-47 is definitely a plane where keeping, and sticking to, a 'hard deck' rule is essential. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Mobile_BBQ

[Ehret]

40 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Fun little fight I had in Berloga using the P-47. Unfortunately my gunnery is horrible so I didn't get the kill and ended up making a fatal error.

 

Looks like you weren't updating the gyro sight range at the end. Nevertheless, the enemy had a lot of luck that no a single stray bullet hit. Only at the end you lost the initiative so a very good fight for you.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Ehret

[Legioneod]

Just now, Ehret said:

 

Looks like you weren't updating the gyro sight range at the end. Nevertheless, the enemy has a lot of luck that no a single stray bullet hit. Only at the end you lost the initiative so a very good fight for you.

I noticed that as well. I was too focused on him to update the sight.

[5./JG54_Teoman]

It is not that you lost because your aim but energy/speed tactic. 

[il2crashesnfails]

damn that was close , if you tagged him before the stall would of ended differently

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

didn't watch all the video but you are far too far to open fire at the very beginning...

 

This guy is at 1 km or more and your bullets wont make much damage if they hit over 500m

[Legioneod]

8 hours ago, 5./JG54_Teoman said:

It is not that you lost because your aim but energy/speed tactic. 

 

19 minutes ago, StaB/Tomio_VR*** said:

didn't watch all the video but you are far too far to open fire at the very beginning...

 

This guy is at 1 km or more and your bullets wont make much damage if they hit over 500m

 

I know, I was just flying for fun not for any serious mission. If it was a mission based server I would have been much more disciplined.

Believe me, I would have never gotten into a fight like that if it was a mission server and I wouldn't have wasted any ammo like I did in the video.

[JG27*Kornezov]

I disagree with 5./JG54_Teoman. "It is not that you lost because your aim but energy/speed tactic."

You lost because you did not connect when you had the chance, you had several opportunities to blast the 109 from the sky, and you missed all of them. You need to train much more shooting, you can't afford to miss a shooting opportunity in p47.

I think you both were flying well.

I also think you outmaneuvered the 109. But how this 109 gets outturned by a p47, OK the first time when you were using the gravity assist, OK, but the second time on deck he should be right on your neck, instead he tried that gamble with the zoom, it is super risky to zoom in front of an aircraft that is zooming better than you.
The 109 fought like he was fighting a Yak and that will be a critical mistake he meets a p47 with shooting skills.

On the other hand trying to outturn a 109 was a little bit strange for me p47 is not designed to be in a turning fight, but when you see that the opponent is giving you angles for free and obviously is not turning well, why not, that was a right choice.
However I think p47 is not a plane to be alone with, like fw190, it is a plane to fight in a team. In this fight the angle fighter was the 109 but he failed, yeah yeah he shot you down in a spectacular manner but it only worked because you failed shooting him down.

So is it a p47 good dog-fighter. Let's precise the question.

Is it a p47 a good angle fighter? The short answer is No (it was not designed for that role). The long answer is it depends on the altitude.

109 G6  Wing loading: 196 kg/m² (40 lb/ft²) /depends on the fuel load
p47        Wing loading: 207 kg/m² (42.43 lb/ft²) /depends on the fuel load

 

At any altitude the 109 G6 and later is more efficient at turning, only a higher thrust to weight ratio could compensate for that.

 

But it is physically impossible to have a good range and to be a good dog-fighter by having high trust to weight ratio.

 

Long range=>big mass+a lot of fuel=>low trust to weight ratio=>bad turning characteristics
However if you consider the design you will see the engineering mitigations. As the p47 was designed for high altitude performance, at altitude because of the density altitude all planes are turning pretty bad high in the sky. However at high altitude the trust to weight ratio is very good "The supercharging system of the P-47 airplane is designed to supply 52" Hg manifold pressure (considerably more for War Emergency Power) to the engine up to stratosphere levels." . And that makes a good dog-fighter by having good trust to weight ratio at altitude but not on deck.
So if you fly relatively high even at 3000 m, in a hot day, with a lot of humidity, in a low density system 109 s  had a very bad surprise in real life, because of the density altitude. Is that simulated in the game?
Is it a p47 a good energy fighter? Yes.

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by JG27_Kornezov

[Legioneod]

2 hours ago, JG27_Kornezov said:

I disagree with 5./JG54_Teoman. "It is not that you lost because your aim but energy/speed tactic."

You lost because you did not connect when you had the chance, you had several opportunities to blast the 109 from the sky, and you missed all of them. You need to train much more shooting, you can't afford to miss a shooting opportunity in p47.

I think you both were flying well.

I also think you outmaneuvered the 109. But how this 109 gets outturned by a p47, OK the first time when you were using the gravity assist, OK, but the second time on deck he should be right on your neck, instead he tried that gamble with the zoom, it is super risky to zoom in front of an aircraft that is zooming better than you.
The 109 fought like he was fighting a Yak and that will be a critical mistake he meets a p47 with shooting skills.

On the other hand trying to outturn a 109 was a little bit strange for me p47 is not designed to be in a turning fight, but when you see that the opponent is giving you angles for free and obviously is not turning well, why not, that was a right choice.
However I think p47 is not a plane to be alone with, like fw190, it is a plane to fight in a team. In this fight the angle fighter was the 109 but he failed, yeah yeah he shot you down in a spectacular manner but it only worked because you failed shooting him down.

So is it a p47 good dog-fighter. Let's precise the question.

Is it a p47 a good angle fighter? The short answer is No (it was not designed for that role). The long answer is it depends on the altitude.

109 G6  Wing loading: 196 kg/m² (40 lb/ft²) /depends on the fuel load
p47        Wing loading: 207 kg/m² (42.43 lb/ft²) /depends on the fuel load

 

At any altitude the 109 G6 and later is more efficient at turning, only a higher thrust to weight ratio could compensate for that.

 

But it is physically impossible to have a good range and to be a good dog-fighter by having high trust to weight ratio.

 

Long range=>big mass+a lot of fuel=>low trust to weight ratio=>bad turning characteristics
However if you consider the design you will see the engineering mitigations. As the p47 was designed for high altitude performance, at altitude because of the density altitude all planes are turning pretty bad high in the sky. However at high altitude the trust to weight ratio is very good "The supercharging system of the P-47 airplane is designed to supply 52" Hg manifold pressure (considerably more for War Emergency Power) to the engine up to stratosphere levels." . And that makes a good dog-fighter by having good trust to weight ratio at altitude but not on deck.
So if you fly relatively high even at 3000 m, in a hot day, with a lot of humidity, in a low density system 109 s  had a very bad surprise in real life, because of the density altitude. Is that simulated in the game.
Is it a p47 a good energy fighter? Yes.

 

 

It was a rhetorical question really?

 

I'm fully aware how to properly fly the P-47, and this video is something I'd never do on an actual mission. This was in berloga so I was just having fun and doing things I'd never do in realistic servers.That's why I'm taking all these chances and shots, because I have nothing to lose in berloga and its just fun.

[ZachariasX]

My P-47 can dogfight. I hit „A“ and it starts doing just that in the QMB.

[Rattlesnake]

The incarnation of the P-47 found can actually dogfight pretty well because it has implausibly good slow maneuvers with der magick flappen, to wit

What it cannot do well is what it is supposed to to well, boom and zoom, due to limitations on high power settings and bad handling above 400mph IAS.

[Rattlesnake]

 Hey Legion, just had time to watch this at home.

The only bit of Monday-morning quarterback I'll inflict on you is that it might have been a good idea to roll back in on him quicker after he did his break and you went vertical. The idea of defeating a better-turning plane with energy fighting is to keep them under pressure. That way they don't have the space to equalize the energy and the angles situation simultaneously. Hopefully they stay mentally off-balance as well.