AAA discussion thread.

[Wandalen]

Lets keep it constructive     

 

Here`s wath i found so far.. its not deadly and it can not die.  But i must say its fantastic to look at !

 

~S~

Wandalen   

 

 

 

[Fifi]

I'm hoping to see at some point "walls" of AA bursts in this game.

 

Just like it is very well rendered in ROF using PWCG and Flak X10...

So immersive!

 

Hard part will be to build it so we don't die each time we'll cross it 

Edited February 10, 2014 by Fifi

[Georgio]

Currently I think the flak is a bit under-done, it should be a bit heavier but not so much that it affects framerates if that is at all possible.

[Finkeren]

I'm hoping to see at some point "walls" of AA bursts in this game.

 

Just like it is very well rendered in ROF using PWCG and Flak X10...

So immersive!

 

Hard part will be to build it so we don't die each time we'll cross it 

 

Are you sure it should be like that?

 

AFAIK the Soviets didn't employ coordinated barrage AA fire, like the German system, even though they did have an awful lot of ack akc at Stalingrad. Luftflotte 4 on the other hand was overstretched and didn't have enough flak to set up proper barrages I think.

 

In any case it should be nothing like what you'd expect to see over Western Europe in 1943-44.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

I'm hoping to see at some point "walls" of AA bursts in this game.

 

Just like it is very well rendered in ROF using PWCG and Flak X10...

So immersive!

 

Hard part will be to build it so we don't die each time we'll cross it 

I gotta try that!!!!

[Fifi]

 

In any case it should be nothing like what you'd expect to see over Western Europe in 1943-44.

 

Didn't know Soviets AA wasn't well coordinated...

[DoWSiq6Six]

Ground attack mission on Stalingrad, HUD off, searching for any remaining vehicles (took out 4, but the spotter said there was one more --- I turned the HUD on briefly to read the msg). I was flying a slow loop, scanning for movement when suddenly all goes red. "I'm wounded!", my pilot transmits. I hit F2 to find my plane is in flames, wing & tail is blown off & on a death spiral facing the ground... I eject.

 

So it seems the flak is deadly, just a low chance of being hit by it.

[Finkeren]

Didn't know Soviets AA wasn't well coordinated...

Not to the extent that the German was. The Germans had a very scientific approach to AA defense, and the permanent AAA emplacements in Western Europe were coordinated by analog computers IIRC.

[Wandalen]

Currently I think the flak is a bit under-done, it should be a bit heavier but not so much that it affects framerates if that is at all possible.

 

I remember from the early IL2 days when i was using a dialup 54kb modem, the AA made the game lag in multiplayer maps. 

When i was hosting DF maps i never had more than 3 88mm an 3 2X20mm flak at each base. Witch i think was a good balance for defend and attack.

Not sure how realistic the il2 46 AA was but i think it was good. Was hoping it vould be something like thath.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Wandalen

[Wandalen]

Ground attack mission on Stalingrad, HUD off, searching for any remaining vehicles (took out 4, but the spotter said there was one more --- I turned the HUD on briefly to read the msg). I was flying a slow loop, scanning for movement when suddenly all goes red. "I'm wounded!", my pilot transmits. I hit F2 to find my plane is in flames, wing & tail is blown off & on a death spiral facing the ground... I eject.

 

So it seems the flak is deadly, just a low chance of being hit by it.

 

Great ! its working then, just need a adjustment in gunnery skills 

I was flyin aroung the targets for almoast an houer without a single hit in Expert mode.  Well as they sayd, its just put into the game to show us how it looks like, 

Lets hope the dev team got the AA under control 

 

~S~

 

.

[SeaW0lf]

I did some low to middle level flybys and saw some flak bursts over Stalingrad, not in sequence -- as I would expect from a WWII flak gun with a short range, below 5 thousand feet-- and scattered around and most of the time absent, even at low altitudes. Sometimes the lack of pattern and bursts to distant from my plane (just me in the sky) reminded of a mix of ambient flak and single batteries from ROF.

 

I am not sure if this is historic or not, but I expected sequenced flak, at least at low altitudes. But as Finkeren commented, maybe the soviets had outdated flak batteries. Maybe this is just the beginning and we will have different patterns for flak guns and also for soviets and German defenses.

 

I remember when I played scramble missions with MCFS and it was cool to see the incoming bombers being followed by streams of flak. It was very realistic and they were deadly too!

 

Well, my two cents over my first impressions. I need to fly more.

[Wandalen]

Wow! Now we got perfect AAA :-D

Edited February 15, 2014 by Wandalen

[TyphoonOneB]

On my first ground attack mission, I approached the target and I love the felling of having to bob and weave. Anyway I wanted to see how devestating the flak was, so I passed over the flak position also target fixated and trying to get into the best diving approach when i heard a huge BANG! My engine was absolutely blazing, so I hit the Bailout key and saw my gunner have an awesome animation to jump out, he got out just in time and his parachute opened a few meters off the ground.

 

So it seems flak is pretty effective

[Fifi]

Haha...no need to build an SP career mode with actual AA.

Just a one day mission would be enough 

[Volkoff]

I really like the new AAA. The ground crews keep me on my toes. I can understand if single player career players would like less deadly AAA, but for multiplayer, I would like it if the AAA is left, as is. Squads can think around the problem, develop tactics, adapt, and overcome the lethal AAA. 

 

 MJ

Edited February 16, 2014 by =69.GIAP=MIKHA

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Can flack be suppressed by strafing etc? I'm not only just talking about destroying the actual guns but having the Ai modelled  in in such a way that if they come under direct attack they will temporarily abandon their guns or divert their attention to a self preservation mode.

 

If this is added it would actually make sense to assign planes in a flack suppression role when performing coordinated ground attacks. also when down in the thick of it once bombs have been dropped players could support planes still attacking the main objective  by diverting the attention  of the Aaa crews.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Skoshi_Tiger

[Wolfstriked]

Can flack be suppressed by strafing etc? I'm not only just talking about destroying the actual guns but having the Ai modelled  in in such a way that if they come under direct attack they will temporarily abandon their guns or divert their attention to a self preservation mode.

 

If this is added it would actually make sense to assign planes in a flack suppression role when performing coordinated ground attacks. also when down in the thick of it once bombs have been dropped players could support planes still attacking the main objective  by diverting the attention  of the Aaa crews.

Thats a great idea and makes the world seem more dynamic and alive! Another thing that I would love to see that has never been done before in a flight sim is to model fear/evasion in ground vehicles.Would love to see vehicles race towards wooded areas or hide behind buildings as I try to strafe them instead of just plow along like nothing is happening.Found this one video of a BoS truck stopping and the driver manning the AAA gun on back and that looked excellent.Maybe a little less accuracy when shooting at you at distance and moving fast BUT when you dive on a AAA gun and the gun is pointed at you you should know that its suicidal.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0IUihyZzt4&hd=1

[Finkeren]

Can flack be suppressed by strafing etc? I'm not only just talking about destroying the actual guns but having the Ai modelled in in such a way that if they come under direct attack they will temporarily abandon their guns or divert their attention to a self preservation mode.

 

If this is added it would actually make sense to assign planes in a flack suppression role when performing coordinated ground attacks. also when down in the thick of it once bombs have been dropped players could support planes still attacking the main objective by diverting the attention of the Aaa crews.

This is a really good idea. The devs should look into this and see if it can be done.

[Georgio]

In a night mission I've managed to strafe and bomb a flak position accurately. I'm pretty sure they were destroyed but it was hard to tell as other flak got me on the egress and of course the mission automatically ends.

What would be uber-cool would be some secondary explosions from attacked flak positions and vehicles while we're at it.

I would imagine a nice fat ammo truck make a pretty big bang with some 37mm in it....^^

 

Can flack be suppressed by strafing etc? I'm not only just talking about destroying the actual guns but having the Ai modelled  in in such a way that if they come under direct attack they will temporarily abandon their guns or divert their attention to a self preservation mode.

 

If this is added it would actually make sense to assign planes in a flack suppression role when performing coordinated ground attacks. also when down in the thick of it once bombs have been dropped players could support planes still attacking the main objective  by diverting the attention  of the Aaa crews.

[heinkill]

Ground attack mission on Stalingrad, HUD off, searching for any remaining vehicles (took out 4, but the spotter said there was one more --- I turned the HUD on briefly to read the msg). I was flying a slow loop, scanning for movement when suddenly all goes red. "I'm wounded!", my pilot transmits. I hit F2 to find my plane is in flames, wing & tail is blown off & on a death spiral facing the ground... I eject.

 

So it seems the flak is deadly, just a low chance of being hit by it.

 

Not my experience at all---same mission, get killed by flak 9 times out of 10, but as you are the only kite in the sky, that isn't a good test.

 

I actually think it is overly accurate because when dogfighting in my 109 out of 5 frags yesterday, I was shot down 3 times by flak. Flak hitting a manoeuvering 109 fighter at altitude? That's more than bad luck...I would vote to tone it down.

[Tektolnes]

The aaa is a bit on the unrealistic side at the moment but it's still a wip so hopefully will improve over time. For it to be more realistic there's a few points I'd consider to try and have it so that AAA is nasty at low level but with limitations that pilots can use to minimise their exposure.

 

The slower firing AAA should be fairly inaccurate during early war periods and get more accurate as the war goes on when they start introducing radar tracking and the like.

 

AAA should lose track of you once you're out of their line of sight.

 

AAA should not be able to effectively engage a bunch of wheeling & maneuvering fighters - they nearly shouldn't bother at all as it'd be a complete waste of ammunition. Fighters flying low level or predictably at medium / high level would be fair game.

 

AAA should stop engaging when friendly fighters enter their zone to engage enemy aircraft.

 

AAA needs to have correct traverse times so they can't track low level fast moving targets too easily.

 

AAA shouldn't be instantly on track of the target once it pops up at low level into the view of the AAA site.

 

AAA should be suppressible - crews aren't going to hang around if being directly strafed unless they're well protected.

[Wandalen]

I really like the new AAA. The ground crews keep me on my toes. I can understand if single player career players would like less deadly AAA, but for multiplayer, I would like it if the AAA is left, as is. Squads can think around the problem, develop tactics, adapt, and overcome the lethal AAA. 

 

 MJ

 

100% agree !  To prevent players hang around airfields strafing hoping for a easy kill. 

[6./ZG26_Emil]

The aaa is a bit on the unrealistic side at the moment but it's still a wip so hopefully will improve over time. For it to be more realistic there's a few points I'd consider to try and have it so that AAA is nasty at low level but with limitations that pilots can use to minimise their exposure.

 

The slower firing AAA should be fairly inaccurate during early war periods and get more accurate as the war goes on when they start introducing radar tracking and the like.

 

AAA should lose track of you once you're out of their line of sight.

 

AAA should not be able to effectively engage a bunch of wheeling & maneuvering fighters - they nearly shouldn't bother at all as it'd be a complete waste of ammunition. Fighters flying low level or predictably at medium / high level would be fair game.

 

AAA should stop engaging when friendly fighters enter their zone to engage enemy aircraft.

 

AAA needs to have correct traverse times so they can't track low level fast moving targets too easily.

 

AAA shouldn't be instantly on track of the target once it pops up at low level into the view of the AAA site.

 

AAA should be suppressible - crews aren't going to hang around if being directly strafed unless they're well protected.

 

Agreed

[SeaW0lf]

The aaa is a bit on the unrealistic side at the moment but it's still a wip so hopefully will improve over time. For it to be more realistic there's a few points I'd consider to try and have it so that AAA is nasty at low level but with limitations that pilots can use to minimise their exposure.

 

The slower firing AAA should be fairly inaccurate during early war periods and get more accurate as the war goes on when they start introducing radar tracking and the like.

 

AAA should lose track of you once you're out of their line of sight.

 

AAA should not be able to effectively engage a bunch of wheeling & maneuvering fighters - they nearly shouldn't bother at all as it'd be a complete waste of ammunition. Fighters flying low level or predictably at medium / high level would be fair game.

 

AAA should stop engaging when friendly fighters enter their zone to engage enemy aircraft.

 

AAA needs to have correct traverse times so they can't track low level fast moving targets too easily.

 

AAA shouldn't be instantly on track of the target once it pops up at low level into the view of the AAA site.

 

AAA should be suppressible - crews aren't going to hang around if being directly strafed unless they're well protected.

 

Agreed +2

[BraveSirRobin]

In a night mission I've managed to strafe and bomb a flak position accurately. I'm pretty sure they were destroyed but it was hard to tell as other flak got me on the egress and of course the mission automatically ends.

What would be uber-cool would be some secondary explosions from attacked flak positions and vehicles while we're at it.

I would imagine a nice fat ammo truck make a pretty big bang with some 37mm in it....^^

 

 

Flak positions explode pretty spectacularly when they are killed.  I think they need to add a smoke column like you see with the vehicles.

[I./JG68_Sperber]

The Best AAA ever !

[6high]

While i agree this is one of the best AAA replications, i do think Tektolnes has it spot on.

But please don`t tone down the AAA to the level of earlier Sims. I think it should be quite deadly, at least that`s what you can read about in all sorts of pilots reports who flew in the ground-attack role. They were absolutely terrified about it, and they had their reasons.

Except for Rudel perhaps who saw and embraced Valhalla in every AA round...

 

6

[JG1_Pragr]

The ability of heavy AA hit the plane moving at +300 km/h below 100 m and during evasive manoeuvring in 9 out of 10 cases is anything but real.

[IonicRipper]

The ability of heavy AA hit the plane moving at +300 km/h below 100 m and during evasive manoeuvring in 9 out of 10 cases is anything but real.

I agree, the heavy artillery's ability to predict new courses so quickly doesn't feel very realistic.

 

Its interesting, though. In earlier games I've literally been ignoring the AAA because it was so ineffective. This new aspect of flight sims is new to me so it will take time to adapt. I still feel it needs work but I know its still WIP after all.

[6./ZG26_Emil]

The ability of heavy AA hit the plane moving at +300 km/h below 100 m and during evasive manoeuvring in 9 out of 10 cases is anything but real.

 

The heavy stuff shouldn't be firing at low alt aircraft I can't imagine they had fuzes so short to detonate at 100m height. I think it needs to be layered so the biggest guns like the 88 only shoot at aircraft above a certain altitude. Being at high altitude should be pretty safe for small aircraft, it's more dangerous for the He-111 etc. The 20mm and MG should be fairly nasty for low level attack.

[IonicRipper]

That's probably the issue here. I remember seeing a video in which they said flak was usually only used above 5000 feet (approximately 1500 meters.) If this aspect was included in the game, I think we'd have a properly simulated anti-air artillery as everything ease feels spot on.

Edited February 16, 2014 by IonicRipper

[ATAG_Slipstream]

One pass and out. If you are going to fly around strafing vehicle after vehicle, or camping over an airbase, like in other games of the past you deserve to get blown out of the sky. Ground attack missions were a good way of getting killed in WW2.

Leave the intensity as it is please, or have a switch in the difficulty settings for gamers who want to just blow stuff up.

Edited February 16, 2014 by LG1.Oster