Quick thoughts after a bit of flying offline last night...

[BlitzPig_EL]

I think the Pfalz is the star of this update actually. Best WW1 aircraft of the four currently available.  It's fast, has no quirks in it's flying qualities and really is a very user friendly kite.  The Camel is very challenging and will only be able to be exploited by very good "pilots".  It is going to send a lot of kite flyers to their virtual demise.

 

The 109K4 is what I expected, another 109 with all the qualities that make it a favorite of so many, with more power.  No surprises here.

The real let down is the P47, and before you all get the pitchforks and torches out, let me explain. As a ground attack bird it will work very well indeed. It's massive ammo loadout for the .50 cals, as well as it's under wing stores will make it very potent in that role. Just pray you have some La5FNs or Yaks for escort, because as a fighter it is going to be shredded online at any altitude that normally is "flown" in a video game. Yeah it's fast at 30,000ft. but, no one is up there. At 20.000ft. (7000 meters) which by game standards is a rarely populated altitude, a regular Bf109 G6, flown by an AI, simply out ran my P47, and I mean ran away and hid from me. I was using full turbo rpm, water injection, tried different prop pitch and cowl settings, to no avail.

I now wait for the P51 in hopes it will prove to be a real fighter, as the P47, as currently implemented, isn't.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

I think the P-47 we have now works well in spring/summer 1944 scenarios against 109 G-4, G-6, somewhat against G-14 too. Its fast enough to compete above 5500 m -ish. And against early 190s. But I agree that the K-4 is definitely too much for a P-47(actually too much for any Allied fighter now in game) that doesnt have even 70" boost or Hamilton Standard propeller. And cant use 22,000 boost RPM and water for 15 min straight.

[Donik]

I spent majority of my evening playing around with the Pfalz and Camel.  Loads of fun there.  I can't wait for a proper map and I'm super excited to see flying circus get fleshed out in the future.  WWI air combat has always been my first love.

 

I checked out the P-47 for an hour or so and liked it well enough for the mud moving.  Dogfighting I did less than stellar against AI and had a hard time handling the machine.  It's going to take lots of practice but I think P-47 pilots will do OK against other guys who are not quite ace pilots.

 

I never fly Axis, like ever. Mainly because whenever I fly online it's always stacked with Germans.  Despite that, I prefer Allied planes anyway.  With that said, the 109K4 is a monster.  I felt like I was playing in cheat mode.  I was shooting down AI like it was nothing.  That thing can just climb for days.  Mind totally blown after struggling with the P-47 for an hour or so.

[TWC_Ace]

P47 D  wasnt and never intended to be as a pure fighter much less to fight K4...which he never did AFAIK. Once we get P51 it would be another story. With that said in team vs team fight we did well in teh jug vs K4, in MP.

Edited November 21, 2018 by blackram

[40plus]

I agree on all points. The Pfalz is a dream to fly. I spent a good deal of time exploring it's nimbleness by dancing around trees. It turns on a dime.

 

K4 was a blast, camel have me in a fright and the p47 felt exactly like I thought it would. Fat. The plane can't match the hype.

[Avimimus]

Just a note - the improved damage model for vehicles is really exciting - it is definitely worth commenting on. The SFX still give excessively giant explosions when trucks go up... but there are details to the driving/dispersing, tanks losing treads, people bailling out of passenger cars... really good stuff for a sim with Sturmovik in the title!

 

Also, this was the first round of AI updates in a long time - so we should be rather happy about that!

Edited November 21, 2018 by Avimimus

[Garven]

7 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

water for 15 min straight

It should be able to, no matter what the manual says about a 5 minute limit, because they ran an R-2800 engine on a test stand for 100hrs straight on WEP with no issues.  Plus the manual says nothing about breaks in between uses; only that its rated for 5 minutes which is extremely conservative.

[Avimimus]

Btw. With regard to the P-51 being highly superior to the P-47 - I always found it finnicky... maybe it is the laminar flow airfoil? So, BoBP mainly appeals to me because of the Fw-190F8 and the Tempest... but you can try to talk me around.

[E4GLEyE]

yesterday I flew the 47 for a very brief time, during which it had no problem dealing with AI k4-s, I could gain on them, could trap them and with the awesome gyro sight make short work of them... And I am a noob when it comes to A2A combat I really love the bird, but will probably use her as a ground pounder, the 3*500 + 6 zookas are a nice setup for that. And yes! The WW1 birds are amazing to fly (tho accidentally spawned them 8k meters up on quick mission)

[Legioneod]

19 minutes ago, blackram said:

P47 D  wasnt and never intended to be as a pure fighter.

Yes it was. If we get the 8th AAF P-47 with 70" and 150 fuel it turns into a much better bird. A Hamilton Standard would be icing on the cake since it adds around 8 mph to it's speed.

 

9 minutes ago, Garven_Dreis said:

It should be able to, no matter what the manual says about a 5 minute limit, because they ran an R-2800 engine on a test stand for 100hrs straight on WEP with no issues.  Plus the manual says nothing about breaks in between uses; only that its rated for 5 minutes which is extremely conservative.

This^ Engine modeling is what really fails the P-47 imo.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Legioneod

[II./JG77_Manu*]

5 minutes ago, Garven_Dreis said:

It should be able to, no matter what the manual says about a 5 minute limit, because they ran an R-2800 engine on a test stand for 100hrs straight on WEP with no issues.  Plus the manual says nothing about breaks in between uses; only that its rated for 5 minutes which is extremely conservative.

 

Every German, British and US fighter (well, apart from the 109 G2) could use max power settings for a lot longer then it is the case in game. US aircraft suffer the most, as it is apparent with the P-40 and P-39 currently. That's what the devs decided and unfortunately it doesn't seem they move away from their conservative, simplified approach...

well, at least the Russian planes benefit from it ?

[Diggun]

While I thoroughly enjoyed my (limited) time last night trying out all my new toys, one thing i noticed with the '47 was that the nose likes to wander around the place. Has anyone else found this? Is this the famed lateral instability coming into play?

[CountZero]

Just now, II./JG77_Manu* said:

 

Every German, British and US fighter (well, apart from the 109 G2) could use max power settings for a lot longer then it is the case in game. US aircraft suffer the most, as it is apparent with the P-40 and P-39 currently. That's what the devs decided and unfortunately it doesn't seem they move away from their conservative, simplified approach...

well, at least the Russian planes benefit from it ?

 

and thats why 47 is exactly as i expected it to be in this game, to mutch effort around engine to be any use in game for anything more then GA, only few will stick with it online 

[TWC_Ace]

5 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Yes it was. If we get the 8th AAF P-47 with 70" and 150 fuel it turns into a much better bird. A Hamilton Standard would be icing on the cake since it adds around 8 mph to it's speed.

It was used as a pure fighter also. But it was built for jabo purpose. As fighter bomber. Not as a pure fighter. Thats why it was so well armed and sturdy. As a pure fighter it was just a slightly dominant only at very high alt which we never fight at in the game.

[Legioneod]

1 minute ago, blackram said:

It was used as a pure fighter also. But it was built for jabo purpose. As fighter bomber. Not as a pure fighter. Thats why it was so well armed and sturdy. As a pure fighter it was just a slightly dominant only at very high alt which we never fight at in the game.

You're wrong I'm afraid, it's original intent was a high altitude fighter (I've also read as an interceptor). It only got relegated to ground duty later in the war and it still escorted bombers quite a bit in the Pacific up till the end of the war.

 

The P-47 was designed first and foremost as a fighter, it was even thought early in it's career that it wouldn't succeed as a ground attack aircraft due to it's large nose and lack of forward visibility.

[TWC_Ace]

9 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

You're wrong I'm afraid, it's original intent was a high altitude fighter (I've also read as an interceptor). It only got relegated to ground duty later in the war and it still escorted bombers quite a bit in the Pacific up till the end of the war.

 

The P-47 was designed first and foremost as a fighter, it was even thought early in it's career that it wouldn't succeed as a ground attack aircraft due to it's large nose and lack of forward visibility.

Yes, at first they thought it would be an high alt interceptor but its moderate rate of climb was a problem. Anyways it wasnt meant to deal with the K4 and it didnt AFAIK.

[CountZero]

i think its great that it come in game when it did, (after spit9 before 51), better would be if 190a8 was on hold and it came now with 47 (insted pairing it relise with best prop in game k4), it would give him some chance to shine, now it will have to fight hords of k4s from start and no chance ther as fighter

Edited November 21, 2018 by 77.CountZero

[Talon_]

46 minutes ago, blackram said:

P47 D  wasnt and never intended to be as a pure fighter much less to fight K4...which he never did AFAIK. Once we get P51 it would be another story. With that said in team vs team fight we did well in teh jug vs K4, in MP.

 

It was built as an interceptor

[Legioneod]

2 minutes ago, blackram said:

Yes, at first they thought it would be an high alt interceptor but its moderate rate of climb was a problem. Anyways it wasnt meant to deal with the K4 and it didnt AFAIK.

It was still a good fighter irl, climb rate wasn't great but it wasn't horrible either.

Whether it fought K4s or not is irrelevant imo, it fought pretty much everything the Luftwaffe had and scored many victories in the air and lost far less to enemy aircraft.

[Talon_]

It would have fought K-4s but not at 1.98 fantasy ata.

[TWC_Ace]

4 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

It was still a good fighter irl, climb rate wasn't great but it wasn't horrible either.

Whether it fought K4s or not is irrelevant imo, it fought pretty much everything the Luftwaffe had and scored many victories in the air and lost far less to enemy aircraft.

 

True, then again if encountered Dora and K4 (or more often) and with more experinced pilots inside (luftwaffe lacked good pilots by the end of the war) it wolud have bigtime problems...

Anyhow I love the P47 even if it turns out its an underdog...

Edited November 21, 2018 by blackram

[Legioneod]

Just now, Talon_ said:

It would have fought K-4s but not at 1.98 fantasy ata.

This^ It's only right that we get 150 fuel for the Allies, British and American included. It's far more historically accurate to have P-47s and P-51s with higher MAP settings and 150 fuel than it is for the K4 to have 1.98 ata.

[Rattlesnake]

1. P-47 was designed as a fighter. It's talent for ground attack came in later. You don't bend over backwards to design a turbocharger system so effective that you can maintain sea level power at nearly 30,000 feet if your intent is just ground-pounding.
2. It was used to escort bombers (as far as it could) flying at 25,000 feet. At that kind of height the P-47D is only a little slower than the P-51.
3. In this role, being above the bombers and booming and zooming anything sent up to intercept, it was murderously effective and difficult to touch. There's good reason why the highest scoring American aces of the ETO flew Jugs.
4. The P-47M was probably the fastest piston engine fighter of the war, about 470mph up high. Important tidbit: Robert S. Johnson's P-47D was modified to pull the same max boost as that which was later standard on the P-47M, and this practice was common, perhaps even ubiquitous. Early boost limitations were extremely conservative. So when thinking of the plane in actual use add another 30mph over official figures to the top speed at altitude. This would have been amazing in 1943.
One of the best videos on the P-47 tech:
P-47 Thunderbolt Pt. 1 Design and Speed by Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles
 

Edited November 21, 2018 by CMBailey

[Swing]

The P47 is well designed to be a fighter at the origin, but in fact, it was a very average interceptor...because of it's solidity, and the heavy loads he could take away, it was used as an ground attack aircraft.

[CountZero]

Just now, Talon_ said:

It would have fought K-4s but not at 1.98 fantasy ata.

and online your lucky if you have balance in numbers usealy it is axis advantage, but in war they had big advantage in numbers  its differant when your fighting vs enemy that you outnumber or one that outnumbers you

 

on top of that it looks like for bobp for allied airplanes eng menagment to get most of them is way more demanding then axis airplanes so most new ppl will go for easy option and numbers will still stay higher on axis side

Edited November 21, 2018 by 77.CountZero

[Sgt_Joch]

I spent some time with the P47 and was actually pleasantly surprised. fairly easy to fly, engine management is quite reasonable and with 8x50 .cal+extra ammo+ gyro gunsight, any plane in your sights is pretty much dead.

 

as a ground pounder, this will certainly become one of my favorites.

 

now the engine settings, 65" wep limit is pretty much standard for 100 octane 9th AF. We can argue about whether the limit should be 5 minutes as per the manual or 15 minutes which was the water tank capacity, but 5 minutes is already plenty in air combat if you plan ahead.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Sgt_Joch

[Ehret]

19 minutes ago, II./JG77_Manu* said:

Every German, British and US fighter (well, apart from the 109 G2) could use max power settings for a lot longer then it is the case in game. US aircraft suffer the most, as it is apparent with the P-40 and P-39 currently. That's what the devs decided and unfortunately it doesn't seem they move away from their conservative, simplified approach...

well, at least the Russian planes benefit from it ?

 

Well... the P-40 on fully open throttle develops (it feels like, at least) 70" MP and 1700hp for 15s. The P-39 on the full WEP has 1550hp for 2m but she is much more aerodynamic than the Kittyhawk. The point is the without timers, as artificial they are, the P-40/P-39 overall would be much, much better to the point ruining the game-play, probably. The Airacobra is already as fast in the level flight as the FN or G-14 but the short WEP ensures the former stays a step lower in performance category.

 

This shouldn't be done like that, sure, but other way would need detonation modelling in piston engines and inter-sortie wear and logistics. Maybe one day...

[Legioneod]

1 minute ago, Ehret said:

 

Well... the P-40 on fully open throttle develops (it feels like, at least) 70" MP and 1700hp for 15s. The P-39 on the full WEP has 1550hp for 2m but she is much more aerodynamic than the Kittyhawk. The point is the without timers, as artificial they are, the P-40/P-39 overall would be much, much better to the point ruining the game-play, probably. The Airacobra is already as fast in the level flight as the FN or G-14 but the short WEP ensures the former stays a step lower in performance category.

 

This shouldn't be done like that, sure, but other way would need detonation modelling in piston engines and inter-sortie wear and logistics. Maybe one day...

True, but it really should be different for some aircraft, the P-47 has 15 min of water yet can't use it due to the limitations of the engine model.

[303_Bies]

2 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

because as a fighter it is going to be shredded online at any altitude that normally is "flown" in a video game. Yeah it's fast at 30,000ft. but, no one is up there. At 20.000ft. (7000 meters) which by game standards is a rarely populated altitude

 

In more realistic servers like TAW, Finnish, Coconut etc. lot of people fly high.

I remember last map in TAW when nearly all fly above 7km - Spitfires V and Bf109s. And that was eastern front, without any specialised high altitude planes. I can imagine with Spitfires HF IX, Thunderbolts and Lightings with turbochargers, Mustangs, Bf109K there will be even bigger emphasis on high alt fights.

 

It was natural and pragmatic decision - nobody wanted to be at disadvantage, when we fly Spits V we knew we gonna meet germans at about 7-8km and if we go lower we will be just cannon fodder. They thought the same. Simple.

 

If somebody fly on less realistic/more casual servers  -  yes, people will take off and turn right over the trees and most of Bodenplatte airplanes will not be better than old planes we have now in the game in this situation, Thunderbolt especially.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Bies

[LeLv76_Erkki]

50 minutes ago, Garven_Dreis said:

It should be able to, no matter what the manual says about a 5 minute limit, because they ran an R-2800 engine on a test stand for 100hrs straight on WEP with no issues.  Plus the manual says nothing about breaks in between uses; only that its rated for 5 minutes which is extremely conservative.

 

In game, on the turbo RPM gauge it says it can be oversped for 15 min too. So neither higher manifold pressure nor turbo overspeeding should be the limiting factor... Something else?

[Legioneod]

1 minute ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

In game, on the turbo RPM gauge it says it can be oversped for 15 min too. So neither higher manifold pressure nor turbo overspeeding should be the limiting factor... Something else?

Water. Once water runs out that's it, you can't run higher settings.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Just now, Legioneod said:

Water. Once water runs out that's it, you can't run higher settings.

 

yeh but theres 15 min of water. and 15 min of turbo overspeed. But in game we have 5 min of WEP only (for now, anyway)

[Legioneod]

3 minutes ago, Bies said:

 

In more realistic servers like TAW, Finnish, Coconut etc. lot of people fly high.

I remember last map in TAW when nearly all fly above 7km - Spitfires V and Bf109s. And that was eastern front, without any specialised high altitude planes. I can imagine with Spitfires HF IX, Thunderbolts and Lightings with turbochargers, Mustangs, Bf109K there will be even bigger emphasis on high alt fights.

 

It was natural and pragmatic decision - nobody wanted to be at disadvantage, when we fly Spits V we knew we gonna meet germans at about 7-8km and if we go lower we will be just cannon fodder. They thought the same. Simple.

 

If somebody fly on less realistic/more casual servers  -  yes, people will take off and turn right over the trees and most of Bodenplatte airplanes will not be better than old planes we have now in the game in this situation, Thunderbolt especially.

It would be nice to have some high alt objectives to encourage players to fly high.

[Rattlesnake]

Just now, Legioneod said:

It would be nice to have some high alt objectives to encourage players to fly high.

Gonna need bomber streams for that.

[Legioneod]

2 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

yeh but theres 15 min of water. and 15 min of turbo overspeed. But in game we have 5 min of WEP only (for now, anyway)

I know, that would be the limiting factor though imo, only 15min of water available, once it's gone you can no longer reach the higher MAP settings.

1 minute ago, CMBailey said:

Gonna need bomber streams for that.

Or an objective type that requires the player to patrol at a certain altitude gap and area.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Legioneod

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Work very much in progress. Turbo limited to 22k. I think P-47 alright against earlier 109s. Its also a bit faster with only 6 or especially 4 guns. Fw 190's super high critical altitude at full ATA might have been fixed last patch, I still need to test it.

 

Spoiler

 

[Matt]

5 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

yeh but theres 15 min of water. and 15 min of turbo overspeed. But in game we have 5 min of WEP only (for now, anyway)

If you take a break for 5 or 10 minutes (can't remember which right now), you again get 5 min of WEP. That's until you run out of water.

 

Works the same on the K-4 with MW-50.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Just now, Matt said:

If you take a break for 5 or 10 minutes (can't remember which right now), you again get 5 min of WEP. That's until you run out of water.

 

Works the same on the K-4 with MW-50.

 

True, but its not how it was used in real life. MW50 was limited to 10+10+however much there was water left, but P-47 could AFAIK use it all in one go.

[303_Bies]

10 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

It would be nice to have some high alt objectives to encourage players to fly high.

Yes but we did not need any objective other that surviving - it was enough to encourage to fly as high as possible.

 

BTW. Give a rest to 1.98 K4 I doubt it will be available in any historical server anyway, i treat it more like a curio or a bonus from the dev team.

But i also prefer the game not to include any prototypes or white elephants which can disort the real historical picture of the combat.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Bies

[Ehret]

1 minute ago, Legioneod said:

True, but it really should be different for some aircraft, the P-47 has 15 min of water yet can't use it due to the limitations of the engine model.

 

I yet to have to try the P-47D in multi-player but from doing few engagements through QMB the Jug isn't as problematic against the G-14/K4 as is implied by some. I tried "Ace" setting and starting altitude of 2000m and could achieve at least a parity against bots. Thought, against the K4 I needed to remove half of guns and it was tedious but not hopeless. (for all planes I set fuel loads to 50%)

 

MP will be more demanding but there will be time to climb and why to engage from disadvantageous positions? As long as you won't over-commit you should be fine in the Thunderbolt. It's possible to prevail flying the P-40 - why it should be any harder in the Jug?