Tips flying P-47

[Pruciak]

Any tips on flying this magnificent aircraft? Yesterday i set up a fight with F4 on average, 1500 m and couldn't keep up with it. I believe I should fly the P47 as an energy fighter? Was putting too much pressure on the stick (used to yak1-b) and stalling too much. When to use the turbo? Does it work as a boost in other aircraft? 

[Legioneod]

2 hours ago, Pruciak said:

Any tips on flying this magnificent aircraft? Yesterday i set up a fight with F4 on average, 1500 m and couldn't keep up with it. I believe I should fly the P47 as an energy fighter? Was putting too much pressure on the stick (used to yak1-b) and stalling too much. When to use the turbo? Does it work as a boost in other aircraft? 

The P-47 is slow down low, in order to get the best performance you'll want to be around 20-25,000 ft or higher.

 

The turbo is best thought of as an altitude throttle imo, you increase it as you gain altitude in order to maintain full power. Water Injection if your boost, use it when needed but be careful because you only have 15min total (though you can only use about 5 min before your engine dies do to the current engine modeling)

 

BnZ in the Jug, never turn and don't get slow if you can help it. Use hit and run tactics and if you are at a disadvantage then run away.

 

Also, if you find managing the turbo complicated then you can always link your turbo and throttle together with a button press (not sure what the key is) this will allow you to operate your throttle and turbo together so you dont have to worry about them.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Legioneod

[303_Bies]

I also don't know everything, i just started P-47 yesterday but first it's not energy fighter (it doesn't have great climb and accelaration, Bf109 is energy fighter) it's more BnZ'er (P-47 has great high alt performance, great dive acceleration, good high speed authority and firepower, great zoom climb). 

 

Generally you fly high (the higher the better, even more than 9km is ok, you are heavy due to turbo so you are worse down low when turbo is not very usefull but you are great up high when the turbo does the job) Bf109K has 1850HP at sea level but it drops with altitude. P-47 has 2600HP at sea level and still 2600HP at 7km due to turbocharger - it works like a turbo in a car (in simple terms, it takes exhaust gases from the engine, cools them and puts them in an engine again that can burn more fuel).

 

• Using turbo and RPM governor you simply block/connect them with the throttle (two last commands in settings->controls->engine management) and observe the throttle quadrant when you use them, you will understand how the system works immidiately, you need to move the throttle a bit to set the connection. You can control it manually but at first it's better to start with connected)

 

• Boost is a water injection, you turn it separately like in i.e. La-5 - it cools the engine down and increases manifold (power).

 

For 1v1 duel down low it's very poor performer, for realistic combat scenario servers like TAW, Finnish, Coconut and similar it will be great plane.

Climb at 7-9km, dive on the enemy with great speed, shot him, shallow zoom climb with great speed.

Another use is ground pounding - it's the best plane for this task in the whole game except maybe pure medium bombers.

 

Edit. pff i see i wrote in english for a Polish guy

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Bies

[Pruciak]

Thx for the reply, not a problem, more people understand english so it will help others. Don't understand the turbo and rpm lock but will try when Im back home. 15 minutes total so it doesent "regenerate"? Like alcohol in mig21 for radar, if it "drinks" it all you cant use it. 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Pruciak

[303_Bies]

It will connect turbo and RPM with the throttle so you will move all three at once. But they need to connect in some peculiar way, you will see.

It's not the most efficient way in every situation but it makes it easier at first.

Yes, 15 min total.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Bies

[Matt]

Imho, it's easier to just leave the turbo at 100% right from take-off. Only at high altitude (9000m+) you would need to reduce turbo a bit to avoid overspeeding the turbocharger, but at that altitude you would still fly with throttle at 100%.

 

So overall there's little reason to connect throttle and turbo. Just leave turbo at full and control speed with throttle.

[Ehret]

3 hours ago, Pruciak said:

Any tips on flying this magnificent aircraft? Yesterday i set up a fight with F4 on average, 1500 m and couldn't keep up with it. I believe I should fly the P47 as an energy fighter? Was putting too much pressure on the stick (used to yak1-b) and stalling too much. When to use the turbo? Does it work as a boost in other aircraft? 

 

You should be able to run at 560km/h at the deck with the P-47D with full fuel load and 8 guns. Set the throttle/RPM/turbo at 100%, close engine cowls and oil coolers and set inter-cooler flaps to 20-30% (the "inlet cowl" bind controls it) so the inter-cooler temps will be in the "yellow" range in the (in top right part of the dashboard) gauge and engage the "boost" (water injection in the P-47D).

 

For the turbo you have the turbo RPM gauge at the left side of the dashboard and the turbo blinking light. It becomes important at medium/high altitudes; for now just link the controls and it should be ok.

 

6 minutes ago, Matt said:

Imho, it's easier to just leave the turbo at 100% right from take-off. Only at high altitude (9000m+) you would need to reduce turbo a bit to avoid overspeeding the turbocharger, but at that altitude you would still fly with throttle at 100%.

 

So overall there's little reason to connect throttle and turbo. Just leave turbo at full and control speed with throttle.

 

Well... IRL throttling the turbo could damage it so it shouldn't be a good idea. Dunno how it's now - perhaps there are no downsides in the sim.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Ehret

[ZachariasX]

6 minutes ago, Matt said:

Imho, it's easier to just leave the turbo at 100% right from take-off.

In real aircraft, that wouldn't get you far.

[Matt]

6 minutes ago, Ehret said:

Well... IRL throttling the turbo could damage it so it shouldn't be a good idea. Dunno how it's now - perhaps there are no downsides in the sim.

That's not modelled in the sim and i couldn't say wether or not that will change in the future.

[303_Bies]

13 minutes ago, Matt said:

Imho, it's easier to just leave the turbo at 100% right from take-off. Only at high altitude (9000m+) you would need to reduce turbo a bit to avoid overspeeding the turbocharger, but at that altitude you would still fly with throttle at 100%.

 

So overall there's little reason to connect throttle and turbo. Just leave turbo at full and control speed with throttle.

Does full turbo influence fuel consumption when in cruise? Thud has a lot of weight so taking less fuel and reduce consumption prior the fight would be beneficial.

10 minutes ago, Ehret said:

Well... IRL throttling the turbo could damage it so it shouldn't be a good idea. Dunno how it's now - perhaps there are no downsides in the sim.

But is shouldn't damage lower than 20000 RPM and that's how it works at low alt.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Bies

[ZachariasX]

10 minutes ago, Bies said:

Does full turbo influence fuel consumption when in cruise? 

Proper turbo settings are essential for a good mileage as well as optimal power.

 

13 minutes ago, Matt said:

That's not modelled in the sim and i couldn't say wether or not that will change in the future.

It would be nice if the devs were open what aspects of the turbo they'd model.

 

For instance doing this

25 minutes ago, Matt said:

just leave the turbo at 100% right from take-off.

will substancially increase your MAP temperature, most likely beyond of what the intercooler can compensate. The intercooler is not dimensioned to offet stupidity, it works best at the correct engine regimes. In the real world, letting the turbo at 100%, you'd have much less power due to MAP overtemperature, more drag due to fully opened intercooler as well as the risk of predetonation should you require power. Also it will induce the most severe turbo lag making it harder to find max. MAP on the throttle lever.

 

As a rule of the thumb, do the contrary. Unless you know what you are doing, leave the turbo way back at lower altitude, maybe 5% or 10% to keep it spinning sufficiently (check the blinkenlight) and you can get all the power you need just from the throttle lever alone, up to critical altitude of the supercharger. You don't need the turbo below that. This is also why todays airshow P-47 often disconnect the turbo. Less maintenance for something you don't need to zoom over the crowd.

 

Only above critical altitude, you can move the turbo lever forward, but only to the extent that you will not retard the throttle ever behind the turbo.

 

It may well be that we have an ACME "everlast" turbo and you can do what you want with it, as neither MAP temperature, bearing temperatures and fuel flow are really modelled. If that remains the state, then you can do what you want. But just don't assume you're flying the P-47 as you should.

[Matt]

I'm aware of all that. But the OP was asking for tips on how to fly the P-47 ingame right now.

 

Everyone is free to ask the devs about the aspects they plan to model in the future.

[Schmehl]

1 hour ago, Bies said:

 it works like a turbo in a car (in simple terms, it takes exhaust gases from the engine, cools them and puts them in an engine again that can burn more fuel). 

 

Not trying to give you a hard time, but a turbo (slang for a turbine driven supercharger) doesn't put the exhaust back into the engine, it uses the exhaust to turn a turbine.  The turbine is connected to a compressor (supercharger).  The supercharger compresses fresh air, but compressing it makes it hot, so the air is cooled by an intercooler before it is forced into the engine.

[Ehret]

31 minutes ago, Bies said:

But is shouldn't damage lower than 20000 RPM and that's how it works at low alt.

 

No - the problem wasn't with RPMs but pressure buildup because once you throttled the turbo the excess compressed air hadn't a place to go.

 

33 minutes ago, Matt said:

That's not modelled in the sim and i couldn't say wether or not that will change in the future.

 

Then... it is unfortunate; hopefully it will be addressed as soon possible. Managing the turbo and all related effects shouldn't be overlooked in the Thunderbolt. The turbo was the very defining property of the P-47 - it's why the plane looks like it is; it's why it had such good performance up high.

 

8 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

For instance doing this

will substancially increase your MAP temperature, most likely beyond of what the intercooler can compensate. The intercooler is not dimensioned to offet stupidity, it works best at the correct engine regimes. In the real world, letting the turbo at 100%, you'd have much less power due to MAP overtemperature, more drag due to fully opened intercooler as well as the risk of predetonation should you require power. Also it will induce the most severe turbo lag making it harder to find max. MAP on the throttle lever.

 

From my quick tests it looks like the inter-cooler temp affects the power output in the sim. Couldn't accelerate well beyond 500km/h if the temps weren't in the "yellow" range of the inter-cooler's gauge. I will check again, thought.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Ehret

[ZachariasX]

44 minutes ago, Ehret said:

From my quick tests it looks like the inter-cooler temp affects the power output in the sim. Couldn't accelerate well beyond 500km/h if the temps weren't in the "yellow" range of the inter-cooler's gauge. I will check again, thought.

That'd be cool. I plan to do some tests this evening if I have time. The P-47 is a lot of fun just to fly right. But for that the systems should be modelled accordingly. But 3.007 works well bottom line.

[Tapi]

Here is what  original manual says:

[Smoke_Fan]

Doesnt this plane have a supercharger and not a turbo? Im confused

[Tapi]

P-47 has both of them: supercharger (part of the engine) as well as turbo-supercharger (in the aft fuselage section) ? 

[LukeFF]

As for what's modeled / not modeled right now with the turbo: overspeed limits are, pulsation is not. Collapse is also IIRC not modeled. 

[Smoke_Fan]

Can someone teach me how to fly this pile of nuts and bolts! Keep getting raped at altitude

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

14 hours ago, Schmehl said:

Not trying to give you a hard time, but a turbo (slang for a turbine driven supercharger) doesn't put the exhaust back into the engine, it uses the exhaust to turn a turbine.  The turbine is connected to a compressor (supercharger).  The supercharger compresses fresh air, but compressing it makes it hot, so the air is cooled by an intercooler before it is forced into the engine.

 

Thanks, was about to say this...................

Edited November 22, 2018 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[montag]

So if I’m understanding all of this correctly wouldn’t the best way to manage the engine be to keep the turbo as low as possible to achieve whatever manifold pressure you desire so that you can keep your intercooler as closed as possible? And to only increase turbo use when you need it?

Edited November 22, 2018 by TheKillerSloth

[LeLv76_Erkki]

1 hour ago, TheKillerSloth said:

So if I’m understanding all of this correctly wouldn’t the best way to manage the engine be to keep the turbo as low as possible to achieve whatever manifold pressure you desire so that you can keep your intercooler as closed as possible? And to only increase turbo use when you need it?

 

Intercooler gives the least drag in neutral position, which is 50 %. It should be set there at high speeds anyway, similar to how cowl flaps need to be nearly completely closed above 225 mph. At low altitudes you can keep turbo and throttle interlinked. I do not recommend letting turbo stay at 0 % or some other low percentage because you're going to start needing it to achieve 65" at fairly low altitudes.

 

For maximum level speed below approximately 6500 m for 65" or 7500 m for 52" maintain 2550 RPM (right between 88 and 89 %). Doing that also also increases the 52" combat mode timer from 15 min to over 20 min.

 

Cowl flaps and oil rad can be kept closed or nearly closed at low and medium altitudes, higher up oil rad needs to be opened and very high cowl flaps too.

Edited November 22, 2018 by LeLv76_Erkki

[183_IAP_Baranov]

Thanks Erkki for this tip !  This information helps...

 

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

I do not recommend letting turbo stay at 0 %

It is actually very bad if you keep it that low. Keep the turbo spinning. You can advance the turbo easily 30% or so without it giving that much added MAP, as pressure grows exponentially with turbo rpm. You have most pressure in the 70% to 100% range. As for the rest, it is good practise to keep turbo lever behind or at the throttle lever. The higher you have your turbo spinning, the faster it will spin up for high MAP. Check out carb air temperature (right hand side of the dashboard). Excessive turbo use rises that temperature. The intercooler is best left at "neutral". Fly fast, don't overdo turbo.

 

 

[montag]

What gauges am I regulating with my outlet cowls? Does that help with cylinder head temp?

[von_Tom]

 

Currently I have the oil cooler and intercooler linked, simply because it mimics the La5 controls I have set.

 

I get that the intercooler cools air so the turbo can shove more of it into the air to be mixed with fuel etc.  It starts at 50% so is there any point in changing the intercooler setting at all? Ever?

 

For the oil cooler, I think it is quite a small flap so again is it worth closing it less than 50% just to get a very small speed increase?  I appreciate 5km/h might really help but it'd be a lot more pilot friendly if I could just leave it at 50% along with the intercooler.

 

Thanks

 

von Tom

Edited November 23, 2018 by von_Tom

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, TheKillerSloth said:

What gauges am I regulating with my outlet cowls?

 

Cylinder head temperature. 

[Yankee_One]

Wow,

 

thats a nice thread! Learning very much!

Love this discussion.

 

Thank you all for such great info!

 

 

[RydnDirty]

Great thread, I am just riding around admiring the manifold pressure gauge. Got to remind myself to look out the window for Bf109s !   I have a lot to learn about how to use this new manual turbo mechanism.

 

Thanks for the manual pages. I would never have used the interlinked throttle and turbo lever  if I hadn't read it in the manual to do that.

 

I thought it was just a game thing...

 

I was fighting the AI at high alt and there was a Bf109 on my six so I revved up the turbo for a short time to dangerous levels (25K rpm)  and it seemed the boost went even higher and that big 10 000 pound plane climbed away from a controlling bf109 !  Wow quite a sight. I think I love this thing.  I had no idea we would get to control the turbo manually and be able to push it harder in moments of danger at risk of breaking the engine. 

 

These time limits are strange though. I would have thought the WEP engine time limits were usually due to overheating. But the timer just breaks the engine even if it is not overheating. 

 

Wiki page on WEP says:

 

 "Like other boost techniques, MW 50 was restricted by capacity and engine temperatures and could only be used for a limited time" 

 

It's a shame all our engines break on a time limit instead of overheating... kinda gamey and unnecessary, if they just made over heating the limitation and we were looking at our temp gauges instead of our technochat time warning... Oh well. 

[Legioneod]

5 hours ago, DirtyRotnFlieger said:

 "Like other boost techniques, MW 50 was restricted by capacity and engine temperatures and could only be used for a limited time" 

 

It's a shame all our engines break on a time limit instead of overheating... kinda gamey and unnecessary, if they just made over heating the limitation and we were looking at our temp gauges instead of our technochat time warning... Oh well. 

Yep, it's a real problem with the way they model engines limitations in this game, and it effects some aircraft alot more than others. Hopefully one day we'll see a more accurate model but at this point in time we'll have to make do with what we got.

 

Another reason for the limitations was just to preserve the life of the engine, in  reality you could run it until the water ran out but it would shorten the life of the engine.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Legioneod

[183_IAP_Baranov]

Many thanks to those who created the P-47 for this sim.  Really enjoying learning to fly this aircraft.  Means a lot.  

[Praetor]

Someone needs to start at the beginning and ELI5 the P47's entire engine system.  

[montag]

 

 

27 minutes ago, Praetor said:

Someone needs to start at the beginning and ELI5 the P47's entire engine system.  

 

The first video has a good explanation of the unique characteristics of the P-47 engine and its turbine powered supercharger.

The second one is useful for basic flight but is a bit dry.

The third video goes more in depth in using the turbo at high altitude and high altitude flight characteristics.

Edited November 23, 2018 by TheKillerSloth

[Bilbo_Baggins]

On 11/21/2018 at 7:44 PM, ZachariasX said:

 

, maybe 5% or 10% to keep it spinning sufficiently (check the blinkenlight) and you can get all the power you need just from the throttle lever alone, up to critical altitude of the supercharger. You don't need the turbo below that. This is also why todays airshow P-47 often disconnect the turbo. Less maintenance for something you don't need to zoom over the crowd.

 

Only above critical altitude, you can move the turbo lever forward,

 

Great thread gents. Very interesting with the forced induction on this machine. 

 

ZachariasX, with the turbocharger set low as you described, I can not seem to get maximum power. The maximum SL speed of 557kmh I could only achieve with turbo on full. There is definitely a need for the turbo down low it seems.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Bilbo_Baggins

[JGr2/J5_W0LF-]

Maybe someone can put together a really nice video that covers all the aspects of this beautiful bird. I too am learning how to fly the P-47 in game and need all the assistance I can get ...

[RNAS10_Oliver]

12 hours ago, TheKillerSloth said:

 

 

Cheers for posting those.

I also stopped looking at the golf ball by the way.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Oliver88

[Garven]

4 minutes ago, StaB/Tomio_VR*** said:

Does someone know why the turbine overspeed red light warning is always blinking ?

Blinking is good as it means the turbo is functioning at normal speed, constant light is bad and means the turbo is being over-sped.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Garven_Dreis

[Tapi]

After a little bit of testing, I still don't fully understand when turbo should start to spin:

 

After takeoff, the turbine does not work (light is not blinking) even if the turbine lever is a halfway forward. I have to move the lever fully forward (or to the same position as the throttle lever) or connect both levers together from the start in order the light start blinking.

If not connected, I can move the turbine lever back to reduce turbine RPM but not fully back. If fully back during flight, light stop blinking (that is correct) but if I want to run turbine again I have again move lever fully forward (move it half way forward do nothing) and then reduce it a bit to not over speed.

 

Do I miss something? IMHO we should be able to start turbine immediately after takeoff and let is spin only to minimal RPM and start to use it gradually again after achieving the height where the turbo starts to be a real help for MAP.

[ZachariasX]

12 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

ZachariasX, with the turbocharger set low as you described, I can not seem to get maximum power. The maximum SL speed of 557kmh I could only achieve with turbo on full. There is definitely a need for the turbo down low it seems.

Indeed. I checked and the supercharger will not give more than ~48 inches. It also seem sto maintain that to critical altitude, suggesting another boost refinement over previos blocks of the P-47. AFAIK the -22, -23 (and how it is modelled in other sims) blocks let you go all the way up to ~62 inches in the superchager alone *at sea level*.

 

The P-47 took a rather remarkable improvement of the systems over time, eventually (P-47 M) they even merged turbo and throttle lever, such as it is in the P-38.

 

Edit: This P-47 training manual explains some more and also shows how in the late models safeguards are put in place to prevent the pilot form destrying his engine.

Edited November 24, 2018 by ZachariasX