Uriah Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 The near square is a distraction but I don't think the black cross that is on the wings would be.
1CGS LukeFF Posted February 9, 2014 1CGS Posted February 9, 2014 Nope, a black cross would be even worse. 3
Venturi Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Actually, their interpretation of that symbol is about as good a compromise between historical and political sensibilities as it gets. Leave it, it's fine. 7
pilotpierre Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Actually, their interpretation of that symbol is about as good a compromise between historical and political sensibilities as it gets. Leave it, it's fine. I agree. 2
johncage Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 disagree. self censorship is the worst. we can't expect the rest of the world to grow up if we don't lead by example.
johncage Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 oh you're right, i forgot about those infantile german laws.
BraveSirRobin Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 It's hard not to question the motives of people who really, really , REALLY!! want to have a swastika in a game. 1
DD_Arthur Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 oh you're right, i forgot about those infantile german laws.
Lusekofte Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 It's hard not to question the motives of people who really, really , REALLY!! want to have a swastika in a game. So you think that ridiculous replacement does any better. We all know what it suppose to be. I think following a historical skin and marking is good immersion , it does not give anyone the right to call me a Nazi. But I understand the concerns and need to follow customers national law. But remarks like that is just nonsense since we all know what it suppose to be 1
johncage Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) It's hard not to question the motives of people who really, really , REALLY!! want to have a swastika in a game. why? do you think they worship the swastika? do you have the same feeling regarding those who insist that movies like schindler's list show the actual atrocities and show the actual symbols used by nazis? do you believe spielberg condones torture and genocide? @arthurmedsley, you're right, covering your eyes and pretending like it never happened/doesn't exist isn't infantile. i stand corrected. Edited March 4, 2014 by johncage
BraveSirRobin Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 why? Check out a history book to see some of the stuff the Nazis did under that banner and it should be pretty obvious why. I think following a historical skin and marking is good immersion If you need a swastika for "immersion", there is something wrong. 1
johncage Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) should we also ban history books since they contain depictions of the swastika? how ridiculous is it to censor something like a symbol or emblem, THAT EVERYBODY ALREADY KNOWS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE. as for needing a swastika for immersion, just go open up a history book or encyclopedia and see that german ww2 planes had swastikas on them, then the reason should be obvious Do you really think the laws in these countries are in place because they want to forget?I think you're missing the point.I won't spell it out here, it's rarely a good idea to discuss politics or religion in 'polite company' i have no problem with how the devs handle it. they are a business, but i have a problem with laws based on censorship because they are predicated on the fact that some people think it's necessary to "guard" us against these supposedly offensive images. however, who are the ones who decide what is offensive or not? why are people not insulted that someone has made that decision for them? and lastly, how can one not be insulted to be treated as if they are a child who cannot differentiate honest depiction with advocacy? as for the motivation for these laws. i do think the underlying desire is to forgot. that should be obvious. no one who is interested in history blots out the "undesirable" parts. censorship is the tool of making the masses forget. whether they are conscious of this or not, is another story. it's rarely a good idea to discuss politics or religion in 'polite company' dialectical discourse and the socratic method, which generates criticism is the only way for humanity to make progress. i'll let you decide if these discussions are a "good idea" or not. but i agree, probably not the correct venue here. Edited March 4, 2014 by johncage
Emgy Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 as for the motivation for these laws. i do think the underlying desire is to forgot. that should be obvious. no one who is interested in history blots out the "undesirable" parts. So you think German schools and media never mention the Nazis?
BraveSirRobin Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 as for needing a swastika for immersion, just go open up a history book or encyclopedia and see that german ww2 planes had swastikas on them, then the reason should be obvious It's not. I don't even notice whether the 109 I'm trying to shoot down has a swastika on it. 1
johncage Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 In the immediate aftermath of the war, definitely a very reasonable precautionary measure. But now more than half a century, these laws prohibit, in a completely unreasonable way, art, media, economy. That is not right. And there is of course a strange double standard, why are films allowed to depict these and not other forms of media like art, comics or games. One is perhaps too economically lucrative and hard to regulate. Which shows me this law is at best a hindrance and annoyance that is blocking real cultural growth. So you think German schools and media never mention the Nazis? No, they would have been criticized brutally if they were to deny that to their public, but I consider the self censorship efforts to be at the very least an attempt to hide a shameful past. That is counter productive to the process of acceptance and tolerance. True, maybe they are not actively hiding anything, but they are clinging to these old ways and not fully allowing growth. Many German youths have attested to this strange hypocrisy particularly due to the fact that they do know about the holocaust from school, but it is treated differently everywhere else.
Nil Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 If I don't remember wrong, the original IL2 (at some time) didn't have the swastika, (even though it was available), unless launched with a special launcher!?
DD_Arthur Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 why? do you think they worship the swastika? do you have the same feeling regarding those who insist that movies like schindler's list show the actual atrocities and show the actual symbols used by nazis? do you believe spielberg condones torture and genocide? @arthurmedsley, you're right, covering your eyes and pretending like it never happened/doesn't exist isn't infantile. i stand corrected. No John, he's covering his eyes so he doesn't have to witness anymore crass stupidity.
1CGS LukeFF Posted March 4, 2014 1CGS Posted March 4, 2014 C'mon guys, this horse was beaten to death long ago and made into glue and dog food. The rules & laws with swastikas are what they are.
Sokol1 Posted March 4, 2014 Posted March 4, 2014 ... and, I believe Hungarian laws and Polish laws, Brazilian too I think ... Brazilian law forbid: "§ 1 Manufacturing, market, distribute or publicize symbols, emblems, ornaments, badges or advertisement using the swastika, for dissemination of Nazism." Penalty: imprisonment for two to five years and fine." Swastika is commonly used here as symbol by skinheads groups that usually attack homosexual, non white people, migrants from poor regions (Northeast)... or that act like the followers of the little mustache... Eventually a judicious judge forbid some computer games - dont know any case due swastika - like Counter Strike when the largest TV network said it could be used to train slums traffickers to fight against police ... But no one stop play the game. As is "common" here, some laws exist only "just for the English see" - reference to nineteenth century law forbidden black slave trade to meet a agreement with England (Aberdeen act). The law was pass - as demanded by England - but not enforced... and the traffic continued for more 30 years... Sokol1
J2_Trupobaw Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) oh you're right, i forgot about those infantile german laws. It's also banned by law in Russia where game is produced . http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoSwastikas Not Polish law, though, like mentioned above - we can legally play Wolfenstein here Edited March 5, 2014 by Trupobaw
Lusekofte Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Well I do not insist on the use of swatzika , but you guys are pretty hypocrite even flying WW2 on german side thinking like that, even the replacement witch we all know what is. Why is it there when you guys get so upset about this, because we all know what it is a placeholder for. Making a big deal of this mean that all WW2 games should be banned, that is my point. If you insist on taking this far
Nil Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Laws are laws, and idiots that make up some laws are also idiots! Lets hope we can get the paintjob complete on our own skins
BraveSirRobin Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Why is it there when you guys get so upset about this We're not the ones who are upset. If they have it, they have it. If they don't, they don't. The only people who are upset are the ones who want the swastika. And I don't care how much lipstick you put on that pig, being upset that you can't have a swastika on your plane is pretty ugly.
IVJG4-Knight Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 I share Olegs opinion regarding the swastika: "It's just a piece of paint on a plane". I would rather have more JG simbols available to choose from.
johncage Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) so you are reminded of gas chambers when you see a picture of the swastika painted on a plane in the context of historical accuracy? interesting. are you reminded of the nanking massacre, illegal experimentation, and war crimes, whenever you see a rising sun on a japanese plane in movies or documentaries? the swastika was on the flag of germany during ww2, therefore its military vehicles carried the swastika. what does that have to do with the holocaust? it's like saying that depicting the confederate flag in the movie gettysburg is "racist" because of its connotation with racism. context and intention matter. it's stupid to deem any and all depictions of swastika as offensive or meaning to offend. to make it a law. well that is a low point in free expression and critical reasoning. Edited March 5, 2014 by johncage 1
Rama Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 Too many godwin points scored in this discussion lately.... better stop the godwin flow there to avoid a lock. Laws are what they are, they may be stupid (and probably are), but this forum has no power to change memorial laws anywhere. So please, stop the useless bating.
Bladderburst Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 I think the swastika should be there because it was there.It's not the symbol of evil, it's a bad regime but ignoring the symbol would not get rid of the reasons why it went bad.But I understand laws even if I don't agree with them, that square is a good compromise. 1
csThor Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) Fact 1: The Russian Federation has a law against "spread of national-socialist propaganda". Since the wording is anything but clear 1C decided a year or two back not to include the swastika in any of their titles. Just in case a state attorney gets a bad case of ambitions. Fact 2: Germany has a law that outrules the use of the swastika (and symbols of NS organizations like the SS-runes, Waffen-SS divsional emblems or lookalikes) and only exempts education, historical documentation and art from this ban. PC games are considered toys and do not get exempted. Period. It's pointless to argue here and fire barrages of accusations of whitewashing history, cowardice or any such BS at the developers and the publisher. Their legal constraints are very clear. [very personal opinion] I, as a german citizen and taxpayer, support the ban of the NS insignia in my country because I for sure do not want the rightwing idiots in my country march through our streets with these emblems (again). And, being the cynic that I am, I firmly believe that if they could the same people yammering about "censorship" would be crying out the loudest.[/very personal opinion] Edited March 7, 2014 by csThor 3
1CGS LukeFF Posted March 8, 2014 1CGS Posted March 8, 2014 C'mon guys, this horse was beaten to death long ago and made into glue and dog food. The rules & laws with swastikas are what they are. ...
VR-DriftaholiC Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 Regarding a symbol as evil and outlawing it only empowers it. When in reality it just a shape nothing more. 1
ST_ami7b5 Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 I think it's a bit strange to allow that symbol in books, films, documentaries but not in WWII flight sims - which are close to those historical documents IMHO. But I'm fine with the 777/1c 'solution' - if it can't be otherwise for the reason they know...
Rama Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 By official "cease and desist" request of the WSPDA (World Society for the Protection of Dead Animals) .... Closing.... 3
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