Capt_Hook Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 Like many, the 1:1 control scheme of BoS has frustrated me somewhat, coming from IL2 which (IIRC) dampens the control response to correspond with a real pilot's physical limitations. I've been getting better at it, though, as I think most will... it requires a different kind of discipline on the stick. I've always been reluctant to set curves when the virtual equipment perfectly matches the movement base of the real equipment, as that just moves the sensitivity you have to learn further out on the stick extremes... it's still there. I just got a piece of equipment in on Friday, however, that feels like pure cheating. I'm not exaggerating.. it seriously feels like cheating. I've flown with a Warthog since the stick was available, and think it's an incredible piece of kit and worlds better than the Cougar. Simpit.co.nz sells extensions for the Hog, and I bought one at 8cm. Took about 30 seconds to install, and I've had a grin on my face ALL WEEKEND. It feels like I can shoot out individual rivets on opposing planes now, the aimpoint is so precise. I don't have anything to do with this company (they're literally on the opposite side of the world to me, and the extension took 3 weeks to get from NZ to Dallas), and the extension seemed a bit pricey for what it is, but now that I've flown with it I'd pay double. If you've got a Hog, get one. If you're one of those intrepid folks building their own pit and/or controls, go for a longer throw stick. We'll get used to 1:1, but it'll always be like driving a racing sim with a console controller... you'll have faster than normal end-to-end ability, but not nearly as much control resolution in the middle. This has never bothered me in any other sim (thousands of hours in 1946, smattering in DCS and RoF), but for BoS it's a game changer with all the subtlety of a smack in the face. Now to throw money at the pedals... I'm one of those folks that just can't control rudder yaw, especially in the 109. The Saitek Combat Pedals have a fair amount of throw, but it seems the smallest amount of pressure I can put on them results in sudden and dramatic nose movement. Not a slam on the sim; the pedals just aren't very smooth. Slaw to the rescue, I guess. 1
DD_Crash Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 I bought one and they are nice It took 4-5 weeks to get from NZ to the UK but it was worth the wait.
McMortison Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 What is it good for? I looked at at there homepage, but I simply dont understand why a longer stick helps to fly more accurate .
DD_Crash Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 It allows you to make small accurate movements. The longer the stick the bigger the movement required to move 1 degree
andyw248 Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 What is it good for? I looked at at there homepage, but I simply dont understand why a longer stick helps to fly more accurate . I think there are several factors at play here: Joysticks have different degrees of sensitivity; the Warthog is very sensitive, the CH Pro stick is somewhere in the middle, and there might be low sensitivity sticks out there. If your stick has high sensitivity, your input from the stick is translated into a smooth movement of the controls (ailerons, elevators); if your stick has low sensitivity, your input is translated to the controls in increments - you make a tiny movement, nothing happens; you make another tiny movement, and get the cumulative input from two small inputs at once. If you have a very sensitive stick, like the warthog, you can get that direct response of the aircraft controls, but only if your hand sensitivity matches the sensitivity of the stick. Those of us that are ham fisted will have trouble getting that sensitivity. Imagine: The length of the stick is only a few inches; if you move it by just 1/16th of an inch that already gives you a response on the aircraft controls. How good are you at making stick movements that small? Now imagine a longer stick: For the same response your hand has to travel farther. This is good news if you are ham fisted. If you already have sensitive hand control, combined with a sensitive stick it will give you even more precision (as the OP mentioned he is now able to aim at individual rivets). The other issue is the spring load. A high spring load, such as in the warthog, will force you to constantly apply pressure to overcome the load. This means you ask your hand to overlay two forces at the same time - a minute force to control the plane, and a stronger force to overcome the spring load. Which of these two forces will be the dominant one? The one that tries to overcome the spring load; it will make the control input less sensitive. Now with a longer stick you will be able to apply more torque to the stick, thus overcoming the spring force to some extent. That's the second reason why a longer stick helps to make your input more precise. 1
Requiem Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) Thanks for that post, the extra length sounds interesting. I have a spare G940 joystick so I might look into modifying the length of it. Yaw control is still very sensitive for me though, so I'm not sure what to do about that... Edited February 9, 2014 by SYN_Requiem
AA_Engadin Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 .... they're literally on the opposite side of the world to me, ...... Sorry mate, but NZ is the geographic antipode of my country, Spain. Let's call a spade a spade . http://www.findlatitudeandlongitude.com/antipode-map/#.UvfBIvl5PRw S! AA_Engadin
Sokol1 Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 In this Computer Pilot maganize issue (free download) show article about "extended" joysticks and his benefit. http://www.pcaviatornetwork.com/files/CP143MT6FZ6A.ZIP Sokol1 3
arjisme Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 Thanks for that post, the extra length sounds interesting. I have a spare G940 joystick so I might look into modifying the length of it. Yaw control is still very sensitive for me though, so I'm not sure what to do about that...Keep us posted if you do this. I have a G940 too and have been considering extending it. I am unsure if that would overwork the FFB motors, though. On the rudder, the devs have said they still have some adjustments to make to it. Besides that, you might want to look at removing the centering detent in your rudder pedals, if you can. I have the Saitek pedals and I modded mine to remove the detent and it has made it easier to make fine inputs without inducing heavy oscillations.
BMA_West Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 If Sahaj from PL1 is still doing them that would be cheaper for Europeans anyway link has his hotmail http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3740946/selling_Thrustmaster_Warthog_e
andyw248 Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 In this Computer Pilot maganize issue (free download) show article about "extended" joysticks and his benefit. http://www.pcaviatornetwork.com/files/CP143MT6FZ6A.ZIP Sokol1 Thanks for the link! I tried the little experiment, and the result is really an eye-opener... I'd recommend everybody to try this: Get some wooden stick or plastic tube. Length should be about 14 to 15 inches (35 to 40 cm), diameter 1 to 1 1/2 inches (2.5 to 3.5 cm). Mount that stick/tube to your joystick with some tape. Make sure the stick/tube sits as rigid as possible on the joystick, but also make sure it doesn't depress your gun buttons (you may want to use some tiny bits of cardboard as spacers). Go fly. You won't be able to use the gun buttons of course, but this is just a test. You can map them to the keyboard for now. I bet you will experience some precision flying like you have never experienced before...
III/JG11_Tiger Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 If Sahaj from PL1 is still doing them that would be cheaper for Europeans anyway link has his hotmail http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3740946/selling_Thrustmaster_Warthog_e I bought one of Sahaj's extensions just before Christmas well worth the money especially if you can centre mount the stick as it makes things a lot more comfortable as well as more accurate.
No601_Swallow Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 When I win the lottery I'll be getting one of these: http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/spitsim-spitfire-cockpit-simulator-product-review.html Sigh...
71st_AH_Hooves Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) here ya go Req, the stick mods really easy as long as you can solder some wires Edited February 10, 2014 by SYN_Hooves
FuriousMeow Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 I dunno. I think extensions would be cool and probably really help out a lot - but I'd need to go through the process of building a "simpit" to make real use of it. Right now I play on a computer desk with a crappy swivel chair, and the computer desk is a piece of junk from Ikea (which most of Ikea stuff is) that is bowing in the middle just due to the weight of the monitor - which is a flat panel S-IPS, that's how terrible this computer desk is. I was considering building a "simpit" out of metal tubing from home depot and mounting a relatively cheap (sub $150) racing seat from JCWhitney to it, mounting a monitor mount system to it and installing a couple of flat mounts for the joystick/throttle. But I'd need the place to work on it, and tools to do so which I'm lacking on both right now. However, I do make extensive use of joystick "curves" for combat sims. I don't have any of my old Il-2 ones available, but here are a couple of "curves" I use in RoF which, as you'll see, aren't curves at all but work amazingly well for me. I only do curves for pitch as well, I leave all other control surfaces at standard. This is only four of the planes, I have curves for almost all scouts, and many of multi-seaters.
andyw248 Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 Before you build that pit I strongly recommend that you sacrifice one of your Ikea chairs and mount your joystick on it. The attached picture shows my rendition of such a minimalistic pit. Yes, it's ugly, and if you share your place with your significant other you might not get much appreciation for your efforts. Note that the picture also shows the even uglier results of my stick extension; however, this was just a proof-of-concept and took a quick visit of my garage, plus 10 minutes to cut the tube to length and wrap the whole thing in tape. Try it
71st_AH_Hooves Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Before you build that pit I strongly recommend that you sacrifice one of your Ikea chairs and mount your joystick on it. The attached picture shows my rendition of such a minimalistic pit. Yes, it's ugly, and if you share your place with your significant other you might not get much appreciation for your efforts. Note that the picture also shows the even uglier results of my stick extension; however, this was just a proof-of-concept and took a quick visit of my garage, plus 10 minutes to cut the tube to length and wrap the whole thing in tape. Try it This is how more great ideas start. I just wanted a more authentic experience, As I don't fly F-16 sims I came to the conclusion that a side stick wasn't for me. So I got brave, took apart my G940 and went from there. I'm still working on better ideas. But trying to keep it cheap. I made my sim pit from about 100$ of PvC and plywood. I just got a length of the pipe and started cutting. I ended up with a pretty sweet Simpit that does everything I need it to. Here is a Pic of the Sim pit before I did the center stick mod. Edited February 10, 2014 by SYN_Hooves
FuriousMeow Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) I'm looking to do something like what you've got there Hooves, nothing fancy and especially something portable since I currently live in an apartment and will have to move. I figured metal plumbing tubing would work best for structural integrity but perhaps PVC would work just as well with glue and screwing through joints. Although I catch a ton of crap from my girlfriend for my "nerdy" flying games, and silly R/C collection (2 small/cheapish Helos - MSRx and RedBull 130-X from Blade) and 5 planes from various makes but didn't go over $1000 for all five total), she actually would give me less crap for building a "simpit" because I don't know... shows handiwork I guess? I'm still confused on that one. Still geeky/nerdy either way I've said to her, screwdrivers and plastic/metal manipulating tools involved don't make it less so. Edited February 10, 2014 by FuriousMeow
migmadmarine Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 You know, I keep getting emails that say things about the benefits of extending one's stick...
andyw248 Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Well yes, of course another benefit of having that stick extension is that each single landing will be smooth as silk (no pun intended ). Fun aside, this is because due to the precision flying it is so much easier to keep the aircraft gliding just a couple of inches above the surface until it finally settles down, without that nasty climb-away due to overcontrolling. Edited February 10, 2014 by andyw248
Revvin Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 I'm looking to do something like what you've got there Hooves, nothing fancy and especially something portable since I currently live in an apartment and will have to move. I figured metal plumbing tubing would work best for structural integrity but perhaps PVC would work just as well with glue and screwing through joints. Although I catch a ton of crap from my girlfriend for my "nerdy" flying games, and silly R/C collection (2 small/cheapish Helos - MSRx and RedBull 130-X from Blade) and 5 planes from various makes but didn't go over $1000 for all five total), she actually would give me less crap for building a "simpit" because I don't know... shows handiwork I guess? I'm still confused on that one. Still geeky/nerdy either way I've said to her, screwdrivers and plastic/metal manipulating tools involved don't make it less so. Have you considered buying an Obutto cockpit system? I have the Ozone and it suits my needs for an all-in-one solution. Its really comfortable for typing and catching up with a bit of office work and general web browsing but can also quickly switch to a flight sim or racing sim layout.
AnaRasanen Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 I have a real 109's joystick. Got it from my grandfather before he died.
Georgio Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) I'm intrigued, did he wrench it from a 109 as part of bailing out or did he salvage it from an aircraft on the ground... I have a real 109's joystick. Got it from my grandfather before he died. Edited February 10, 2014 by Georgio
AnaRasanen Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 I'm intrigued, did he wrench it from a 109 as part of bailing out or did he salvage it from an aircraft on the ground... He worked as a mechanic in a local air force base so I think he got it from there.
Fodder Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 Does Thrustmaster support the use of these extensions? Just wondering whether they would refuse to fix under warranty if they found out.
Georgio Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 Thrustmaster have difficulty honouring their warranties regardless of this, look at the amount of bricked Warthogs that were about a few years ago that they chose to ignore. Though saying that the Warthog is built like a tank, so assuming you don't naff it up during a firmware upgrade they're pretty difficult to break. Does Thrustmaster support the use of these extensions? Just wondering whether they would refuse to fix under warranty if they found out. Nice, well if you ever needed some spare money I think that EBay would be your friend as I believe that original 109 parts especially control grips/columns go for silly money to collectors. Maybe you could take a decent photo of it and post on here for everyone to admire? He worked as a mechanic in a local air force base so I think he got it from there.
arjisme Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 I would be quite surprised if modding the stick didn't void the warranty.
DD_Crash Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) A squad mate did have a problem with his Sahaj extension. When he tried to remove it the ball part of the joystick turned with it and he knackered the hall sensor. He recons that there was a burr on the thread and this dug into the TM part. He has ordered a replacement and it will cost him 48 euros quote Ok so this is what happens when you fit an extension without wire wooling the threads for burs they embed themselves into the painted threads of the warthog,so when you come to remove the extension it does this _2063675.JPG it rips the hall sensor mounting right off .But luckly TM customer services are on the ball and they will send me this part out for 48 euros HWinternal.jpg and here endith the lesson lesson learned Edited February 10, 2014 by DD_Crash
VO101_MMaister Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 Fly with a full length control stick compared to a short desktop one is day and night, I can confirm that! But keep in mind 2 things if you want to modify your desktop stick. - These things are made of plastic. Hence they are not built as a tank. Lengthening the stick means increased load on the internals. If you full deflect the stick with a sudden, strong movement, you can easily break something. - The short desktop sticks have usually higher +/- degrees of deflection than the full scale columns. If you lengthen the arm, you can end up with very long travel at the top where you grip it. It can be uncomfortable and slow to move it from end to end or it can collide with your knees or lumbar. Do some testing before you do something permanent. Place the stick where you intend to use it with the extension and try it out. 2
andyw248 Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 A squad mate did have a problem with his Sahaj extension. When he tried to remove it the ball part of the joystick turned with it and he knackered the hall sensor. He recons that there was a burr on the thread and this dug into the TM part. He has ordered a replacement and it will cost him 48 euros quote Ok so this is what happens when you fit an extension without wire wooling the threads for burs they embed themselves into the painted threads of the warthog,so when you come to remove the extension it does this _2063675.JPG it rips the hall sensor mounting right off .But luckly TM customer services are on the ball and they will send me this part out for 48 euros HWinternal.jpg and here endith the lesson lesson learned That's good to know. Thanks!
Sokol1 Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Though saying that the Warthog is built like a tank, so assuming you don't naff it up during a firmware upgrade they're pretty difficult to break. Tank? "Urban legend" - A "tank" with plastic gimbal (The gimbal of "all plastic" CH stick is more sturd that Wart' one). Wart' broken ball joint. Other example of Wart' gimbal broken when guy try remove grip to fit a extension - due force aplied in Z (twist) axis the ball of ball-joint gimbal broken in two. http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3908947/Re_Any_gimbal_mods_for_HOTAS_W#Post3908947 Notice that ball broken note due extension use, but during removal grip - procedure allowed by Tm. Sokol1 Edited February 10, 2014 by Sokol1
Capt_Hook Posted February 11, 2014 Author Posted February 11, 2014 I don't know anything about the Sahaj extension, but the one from Simpit goes on with finger force. I can't imagine breaking the stick installing it, as it's build exactly like the base of the grip, with the same connector socket and nut. The video for installing it does go to great lengths to inform you to hold the extension when spinning the restraining collars to keep it from twisting, so I guess that's the issue, but it takes zero effort to tighten them. Almost wishing I'd gotten the full 15cm extension length, but the improved control resolution at 8cm is mind-blowing. Plus I'd definitely have to figure out how to lower the stick. It's OK now, though it could be a few inches lower. With twice the extension it'd be unplayable without somehow modding the Revolution. Anyone sitting in an Obutto Rev pit, any ideas on how to lower the side-stick mount? I'd love it if Obutto sold the generic L-brackets that everything mounts to with a few different vertical pipe lengths.
Panzerlang Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 I found the stick force too weak with the 10cm extension (Warthog) but two rubber gear-stick gaitors, which fit like a pair of gloves, cured it superbly.
6./ZG26_Gielow Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 We really need force feedback rudder pedals!!
Sokol1 Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 Some guys already try make FF rudder (with racing sim FF whell controller/motors), the question is games only support one FF controller, and provide effects only for X and Y axis... Sokol1
BMA_West Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Did a buttkicker owner already tried clamping it on his rudder pedals? Edited February 12, 2014 by West
Krig Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 Thanks for sharing. The article is on page 118 and is quite a good read. Food for thought anyway.I have that and loads of more pages and info I gathered when I was about to build my "long" thrustmaster 16k. I have a prototype-kinda thing in wood and it works flawless. The base of the joystick is on the floor and the grip is so you can rest your hand on your thigh. I have a busted shoulder so I had to find a way to rest my arm And the total cost for the build was about 40-50$ tools included. So go for it mod them sticks!
Mags Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 Interesting topic! I'm about to buy and modify a Warthog so I have a question: How far does a Warthog travel from 'neutral' (straight up) to the end (f.ex. full forward). How long is that measurement? Pivot angle? Thank you for your time!
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