Why does the AI kill fps so much in career?

[rowdyb00t]

I thought I read about this earlier this year but I can’t find the thread. Does this happen to everyone? Bomber escorts are the worst

[NETSCAPE]

Because early on the devs made a design decision to make the AI fly against the same forces as a human player... and that costs a lot of cpu cycles. 

 

Check out this thread and then follow the link at the end of it to another thread and all will make sense.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/32011-scripted-campaigns-will-never-be-excellent-until-ai-is-improved/

[rowdyb00t]

45 minutes ago, NETSCAPE said:

Because early on the devs made a design decision to make the AI fly against the same forces as a human player... and that costs a lot of cpu cycles. 

 

Check out this thread and then follow the link at the end of it to another thread and all will make sense.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/32011-scripted-campaigns-will-never-be-excellent-until-ai-is-improved/

Thanks NETSCAPE, I was planing on upgrading my MB so I can get a ryzen 5 2600. My current is a amd fx 9590 with a GTX 1070ti and 2tb hdd. Also I’m using oculus CV1 VR. Do you think this will be enough to soften the fps blow? I usually get a solid 44fps until AI drops it some times to 21. It’s frustrating

[rowdyb00t]

Definetly try an ssd too. Thanks for the reply!

[Ribbon]

3 hours ago, NETSCAPE said:

Because early on the devs made a design decision to make the AI fly against the same forces as a human player... and that costs a lot of cpu cycles. 

 

Check out this thread and then follow the link at the end of it to another thread and all will make sense.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/32011-scripted-campaigns-will-never-be-excellent-until-ai-is-improved/

This^^^

I hope it will be revised on behalf of VR and overall performance.

AI moving stick inside cockpit and moving flight surface animations like we do are too costly on performance while it's tactics and flying are in need of improvements.

I would trade that for performance gain and smarter AI (flying plane to it's strenghts) rather than having AI flying stupid with complex physics and animations.

Just my opinion, i believe devs will find the best way to polish it over time.

 

 

[NETSCAPE]

3 hours ago, rowdyb00t said:

Thanks NETSCAPE, I was planing on upgrading my MB so I can get a ryzen 5 2600. My current is a amd fx 9590 with a GTX 1070ti and 2tb hdd. Also I’m using oculus CV1 VR. Do you think this will be enough to soften the fps blow? I usually get a solid 44fps until AI drops it some times to 21. It’s frustrating

 

For gaming you want fast SINGLE THREAD SPEED. Disregard marketing trends for 6 gazillion cores. I used to have a Fx processor too... glad I got rid of that. Your GPU is fine. SSD will help loading times, it won't boost frames in game. 

 

EDIT: SSD is awesome in general. For gaming a cool aspect of the upgrade is, (if you have good internet speed) you will always get the first "slots" in a first person shooter or something like that, which is super nice!

Edited November 12, 2018 by NETSCAPE

[SAS_Storebror]

25 minutes ago, NETSCAPE said:

For gaming you want fast SINGLE THREAD SPEED.

True for IL-2 Great Battles series at the moment, but not generally true for gaming at all.

 

Mike

[-TBC-AeroAce]

This ga me does not seem to like AMD CPU's. I can run the latest games at very high fps with my FX 8350 but not BOX.

[NETSCAPE]

5 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

This ga me does not seem to like AMD CPU's. I can run the latest games at very high fps with my FX 8350 but not BOX.

 

Yep, it's the singlethread speed my dude. Sorry. At one point I had a FX 8350 system. It worked great for music production but was absolutely horrible for gaming. 

 

I also have a P. II and P.III system. GET ON MY LEVEL LADS. 

 

 

Don't forget to bring your short shorts to my LAN party.

[Ribbon]

42 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

This ga me does not seem to like AMD CPU's. I can run the latest games at very high fps with my FX 8350 but not BOX.

For games like Il2 and Arma AMD cpu's are trash, intel cpu like i5 4690k/6500k and i7 4970k/6700k/8700k are best choice.

It's not just about overall speed, it's single core performancce and floating point speed (calculation power and accuracy) and this is where intel beats amd by miles.

 

[SAS_Storebror]

"Trash" is a bit harsh.

My good old i5-2500K can handle IL-2 Great Battles pretty well.

This translates to "anything at about 2000 Passmark Single Thread points and above should be fine".

Take a look at this list and you will find quite a few AMD CPUs falling into that category:

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

 

Mike

[Voidhunger]

I have i5 4670k and its a trash in career mode

[MasserME262]

I have an I5 4440, and a GTX 1050 (not the ti).

The other day I was flying over kuban in career mode, at one point of the combat, there were like 10 herman bombers, at least 10 german figthers and like 10 more soviet fighters. You can imagine the lag I suffered

[Feathered_IV]

When I'm following the AI around and around in circles on the deck and the game is running in slow motion, I often think how nice it would be if the AI used a more simplified FM combined with a more varied set of behavioural routines.

[PatrickAWlson]

As far as I am aware the AI code needs optimization, but when we last heard resources were not available.  Go to an external view and look at the plane on autopilot.  The control surfaces are fluttering.  The AI is making micro corrections way too fast. 

 

This is not an easy task: the AI has to be slowed down all without making it so slow that it is completely stupid.  Oddly enough, if done really well, slowing the AI down can actually make it smarter.  If the AI makes a decision and then COMMITS, then the decision does not have to be revisited for some fractions of a second.  That savings could then be used to let the AI make more complex decisions.  Bomber and gunner AI can be slowed down period - allowing more cycles for fighter and attacking AI to make better choices.  

 

Example: AI decides to perform a half loop.  That maneuver is coded.  First the AI goes through prep - getting enough speed.  Prep phase is only revisited to check if it is complete.  Then the AI goes to step 2: perform the half loop.  It pulls back on the stick.  At this point it is committed to the maneuver.  Again, the AI is only revisited to verify that the maneuver was done.  Once at the top of the half loop the AI performs step 3: half roll.  The AI has now completed the half loop and can use a more complex decision tree to decide what is next.  That maneuver probably took a few seconds, during which the AI was not consuming much CPU at all.  Going down the decision tree might take a bit of CPU, but it is not happening very often in computer time (once every couple of seconds for major decisions).

 

I would also look into software architecture, maybe allocating dedicated thread pools to major AI decisions (maneuvers, changes in state like running away, etc.) and minor Ai decisions like input corrections needed to perform the maneuver in progress.  The advantage would be that CPU usage is bounded by the size of the thread pools.  The thread pools can be sized based on machine specs or, better, some user configuration much like graphics - let people play with it to determine best usage.  The disadvantage is that AI without access to threads is flying dumb, but that is better than a slide show.  Done right, there will be plenty of compute for AI decisions because those decisions will be made less frequently.

 

Another thought: make the queues priority based with priority set by AI level. That would give ace AI priority over novice, so if somebody is looking stupid it is the novice pilots.

 

But like I said - not easy.

Edited November 12, 2018 by PatrickAWlson

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

As far as I am aware the AI code needs optimization, but when we last heard resources were not available.  Go to an external view and look at the plane on autopilot.  The control surfaces are fluttering.  The AI is making micro corrections way too fast. 

.

Lol honestly just look at their rudders on takeoff...  it looks like a hippo farting

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

Ive only had the slow mo in career once or twice, and that was with a tone of aircraft in the scene at once...

thats with i7-8700k, 32gb ram, 1060 6gb on a 1tb ssd/HD hybrid

 

[SAS_Storebror]

Don't know what that has to do with the FPS impact of AI planes.

While AI might be a tad too good in compensating prop wash on taxiing (and many human players are too slow -> donut!), this can hardly be called a showstopper.

Maybe we're better off if we concentrate on the main issues, don't you think so?

 

@edit: My reply was targetted at your reply an hour ago, not at the double post thereafter.

 

Mike

Edited November 12, 2018 by SAS_Storebror

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

21 minutes ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Don't know what that has to do with the FPS impact of AI planes.

While AI might be a tad too good in compensating prop wash on taxiing (and many human players are too slow -> donut!), this can hardly be called a showstopper.

Maybe we're better off if we concentrate on the main issues, don't you think so?

 

@edit: My reply was targetted at your reply an hour ago, not at the double post thereafter.

 

Mike

Oh is that why they’re fluttering around like that??  Hm that would explain it..

Buuuut never called it a showstopper on my end, just that it looked funny.

 

my only issues with the sim in any forum i ever really keep on saying is the aliasing with clouds... but I don’t want to derail the OP!

 

btw, Speaking of propwash... does this have impact on sp?  I meant being that every aircraft produces disturbances in the air, is the sim constantly trying to keep up with calculations with this... and how long do the vorticies hang in the air?   Is it enough when a lot of planes are around to take this computation into consideration for FPS or ‘slow-mo’?

 

[SAS_Storebror]

Having flown in close formation online a lot, I must say that I've never had the impression that turbulencies behind other aircraft are taken into account at all.

And frankly I don't consider that relevant either.

Whether this has an impact on sp depends on what "sp" is in your question.

If it refers to "single player", then the answer is probably "your own propwash has an impact on yourself but on no one else".

But then again, that's the same in "mp".

 

Mike

[Ribbon]

Turbulence is modeled very good imo, just set windy weather and pop-in in Ju-52.

Today at work we were flying low (500ft) in plane similar in some aspects to ju52 (cl-415 big flight surfaces, light and slow).

It was very windy so i had to lay down to stop my guts going up and down, which we don't feel sitting in front of the pc.

But turbulence affecting plane stability in visual remark was the same as in il2.

Same thing is when you fly low over the hills/mountain peaks you get sudden turbulence hit, IRL and in il2 is very similar so i think devs did a great job.

I also tried to fly close behind another plane in il2 and turbulence is there, didn't tried it IRL tho so i can't compare them.

 

I don't think weather physics affects performance as much as AI.

You can feel it by setting time speed to max in career and in moment when AI spawns you can see time slows down.

[SAS_Storebror]

I didn't try to say that turbulence isn't modelled - it clearly is, we're using it on our FAC Server quite successfully and it makes ground attacks a real challenge.

What I'm saying is that aircraft induced turbulence, i.e. what you suffer from when flying closely behind another aircraft, e.g. inside it's wing vortice, seems not to be modelled and I don't think it should be a priority to do so.

 

Mike

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

Using AMD in IL-2 without problems. FPS is 70-140 online, average being around 80-90. When playing IL-2 the GPU usage is 99% but CPU sits below or around 10%. Intel users with nVidia get higher CPU usage because how nVidia used it's drivers in DirectX 11. It puts CPU to work as well, not only the GPU. Was quite an interesting article about it and how use of DirectX 12 with asyncronous computing would benefit AMD more than Intel / nVidia due different ways they are done. 

[DD_Arthur]

2 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

What I'm saying is that aircraft induced turbulence, i.e. what you suffer from when flying closely behind another aircraft, e.g. inside it's wing vortice, seems not to be modelled and I don't think it should be a priority to do so.

 

Mmmm.....in single player prop wash or some sort of aircraft induced turbulence is modeled. 

 

 

[SAS_Storebror]

Interesting.

Well, it looks like the wake and prop wash turbulencies are surprisingly "soft" compared to what you'd expect, nevertheless... worth repeating that test online.

 

Mike

[DD_Arthur]

Not modeled online.

btw Mike, sending you a PM 

[Gambit21]

On 11/12/2018 at 2:48 AM, EAF_Ribbon said:

For games like Il2 and Arma AMD cpu's are trash

 

 

Eh...no.

I build heavy missions, and my AMD Ryzen smokes them.

I've done more testing than I can speak of, and CPU is NOT the bottleneck whether it's AMD or Intel.

 

What CPU issues there are, seems to have more to do with optimization as Patrick indicated.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Gambit21

[THERION]

4 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

Not modeled online.

 

Are you sure about that one? Last week we had an online mission with bombers and we were flying in formation.

I would bet I could clearly notice some prop wash of the others in the formation.

[DD_Arthur]

20 minutes ago, -IRRE-Therion said:

Are you sure about that one?

 

Yes.

[Ribbon]

2 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Eh...no.

I build heavy missions, and my AMD Ryzen smokes them.

I've done more testing than I can speak of, and CPU is NOT the bottleneck whether it's AMD or Intel.

 

What CPU issues there are, seems to have more to do with optimization as Patrick indicated.

Than il2 is not quite single core heavy, meaning overall optimization is quite good.

Arma 3 is not that case, runs very poor on amd cpu's.

 

Still biggest load in il2 is AI, when i warp the time in career i can see/feel the moment when AI is spawned, warped time slows down quite a lot not to mention stutters.

I'm all in for devs to make it with simplified physics bit better tactics....win on performance and win on AI tactics.

 

S!