Flying the LaGG and the ME109 - my view

[pilotpierre]

Just to set the scene  - I have been flying flight sims since the original Falon came out (approx 25 years ago) on an Atari 512 (thats 512 kb RAM for the younger members) and flew (real life) aerobatics as a hobby up until a couple of years ago.

 

I am absolutely wrapped in BoS and have flown every week it has been released. I have read every thread (ad nauseum) about the flight characteristics of both aircraft and do not wish to get into any more long drawn out discussions.

 

What follows are my views on flying both a/c to date.

 

The LaGG even without trim has just got better and better, or perhaps I have. I've even managed to cream some (no bounce) 3 point landings and shoot down a couple of ME109's and find it a delight to fly.

 

The 109 on the other hand, with my rig (see sig), is a twitchy over sensitve horror that I find frustrating to fly. I have pitch, yaw and roll dead zones set, although I believe the moment the setting screen is vacated they revert to zero. Try as I may I cannot overcome the porpoise effect when dogfighting and landing. Landing is the worst as the slightest correction in pitch starts the rubber band porpoise effect that I have never experienced in real life nor simming.

 

For me, whereas the Lagg has improved over time I think the 109 has gotten worse, particularly over the last couple of early releases.

 

Apart from that, I believe this will end up the creme de la creme of flight sims and fortunately there will be plenty of other a/c to fly so I wont have to get frustrated with the 109.

[Fifi]

That's strange Pierre.

To me, Lagg is getting better and better, with devs adjustments.

109 has always been nice and easy to fly, not twitchy at all, contary to Lagg of first release.

Today, both planes aren't twitchy on my rig, except the fact the rudder is still very sensitive (and the lack of trim for Lagg).

 

To limit the twitchy feeling, you should adjust the sensitivity slider (to the right - increasing to 0.2 or up, would decrease actually the sensitivity) but not giving dead zones IMO.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Fifi

[pilotpierre]

Sensitivity slider is all the way to the right Fifi, always has been.

[FuriousMeow]

Why are you setting dead zones? You'd only want those if within a certain proximity to the center or end of the axis you experience spiking. That way you get rid of control spikes, you don't want any dead zones otherwise.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

Got to try again and see if adjusting joystick settings will give any improvement. At the moment I am getting the same as Pierre, and it really seems to have happened to me in last two patches.

 

Rig: Asus G53S gaming laptop with 2630qm, GTX560m 2GB, 8GB, Windows 7 home premium.

[pilotpierre]

Why are you setting dead zones? You'd only want those if within a certain proximity to the center or end of the axis you experience spiking. That way you get rid of control spikes, you don't want any dead zones otherwise.

 

To limit the amount of a/c movement with joystick movement, ie to try and prevent the twitchiness. I only have to think about moving the stick with the 109 and away it goes

[Finkeren]

To limit the amount of a/c movement with joystick movement, ie to try and prevent the twitchiness. I only have to think about moving the stick with the 109 and away it goes

I find that twitchyness is best avoided by setting proper curves. Deadzones just tends to excacerbate the problem.

 

I will give you that the last updates seem to have leveled the playing field somewhat between Bf 109 and LaGG in terms of handling, but there is no question that the 109 remains the superior fighter in almost every aspect, and partly for that reason the LaGG has become my ride of choice 75% of the time.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Finkeren

[FuriousMeow]

Uh, dead zones will do the opposite and make it twitchier. It reduces the amount of throw your real physical joystick has. You do not want to use dead zones to reduce twitchy in game joystick movements.

[Fifi]

That's what i was trying to say...dead zones should exacerbate the effect while sensitivity slider just gives kind of S curve...

But that's even weird Pierre has this slider full right already! 

 

I've set mine to 0.2, and quite satisfied with that.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Fifi

[LLv44_Mprhead]

For me it looks like setting sensitivity also to somewhere around 0.2 will give more or less ok results.

 

Don't know if the handling now is most realistic or so, but at least flying is not a pain.

Edited February 9, 2014 by 13./JG51mprhead

[pilotpierre]

It's probably a moot point anyway as I'm sure the dead zones are reverting as soon as I leave the settings screen.

[Finkeren]

I fly with a mediocre X52 twister stick and I fly just fine without even setting curves at all. I honestly think you have issues because you set deadzones rather than despite it.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 If interested just posted test flight data of the Series 35..

[III/JG11_Tiger]

I hadnt flown for 4 or 5 weeks and took the 109 up for a quick flight, forgot to close the cockpit so it was in convertable mode but I was surprised that I nailed the landing no problems, just wondering if you are having any issues with your joystick, seems that more and more you need a good joystick to fly accurately in these sims.

[JtD]

The LaGG is a terrific plane to fly in aerobatics. It's got post stall behaviour like modern fly by wire fighter aircraft would like to have. You never lose control.

 

Wondering if anyone can reproduce the two (edit: three) little tracks I've attached with a 109, please note that the slow rolls are with full rudder, elevator and aileron deflection. No problem, currently.

 

Edit: Added another track I just made. Take off.

LaGGpostStall.zip

Edited February 9, 2014 by JtD

[pilotpierre]

Nothing wrong with my joystick, it flies the LaGG and RoF just fine.

[303_Kwiatek]

After some testing both planes i think that LAgg3 is more beliveable to me. Still it has absence of elevator trimm which could change some things.  Lagg 3 rudder work more accurate - there is no flick roll and plane start to spiral down with slow roll - exacly like should be.  About pitch behaviour is hard to say in these moment casue of lack trimm - but for now i see much less gyroscopic moment which also looks more accurate.  Dunno about nasty stall characteristic with Lagg.  I know it  should had quite nasty stall but actually i think it is little too nasty. Maby these is lack of stall bufffet now.  It is harder to fly then P-51 DCS now  which has also quite nasty stall characteristic but got much better stall buffeting and pre stall warning.

 

Other hand in 109 we got now less spring back movement with pitch apply which is good.   I found that 109 has very big gyro moment which i think could cause bad rudder behaviour -  flick roll after full rudder apply  and the same flick roll when negative pitch is apply. Actually it looks like 109 had big 1300 HP rotary engine in front. Residues from ROF planes???

 

Still in 109 slats dont work correctly - thats why i think that stall characteristic is off now. 109 should have very gentle and forgiving stall beacasue of slats. Now it is far from these. Also reading 109 pilots raports i think 109 should be quite stable plane in pitch movements.

 

So i really have miss feelings.  Still too many things don't feel accurate to me.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Kwiatek

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Quick and dirty test of flying the planes on idle speed. Both had full fuel. Make your own conclusions from what you see.

 

 

Tracks.zip

[JtD]

Flying straight is easy, both in the LaGG and 109. I agree with that.

 

But personally I have much high troubles flying the 109 to the limit than I have with the LaGG (which I have a lot less time on, I'd guess about 3 hours, and still can do stuff with it that the real plane could not do). Historically, the LaGG was hard to control, the 109 was easy to control in slow speed flight. To me it feels that the global FM is still considerably lacking in some areas, and the LaGG control has been dumbed down which allows to exploit the FM deficiencies. The 109 can not, as far as I'm concerned (will change my opinion if someone uploads tracks replicating the LaGG tracks I provided).

[303_Kwiatek]

I think your stall test is not accurate.  You should try keep steady alt ( 0 vario) with decrasing speed until critical angle of attack will be reached.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 I set power to idle and raised nose to slow down faster. Could keep the low rate of descent without any stall indications and speed was as well steady.  As said, make your own conclusions. 

[IVJG4-Knight]

I always fly the 109 because i liked german planes since i was a kid.But the lagg has in my book a true to life fm ,feels like i'm flying a plane.I can land the 109 without problem but i don't get the feeling of flight at all.Feels way too sensitive.Maybe with time the 109 fm will be better .

This is the way i feel the controls , other pilots my have other opinion.

Edited February 9, 2014 by IVJG4-Knight

[Streiff]

I must be doing something seriosly wrong. If i leave my stick centered the 109 will role hard to the left. The rubberband effect when using the rudder is imo extremly overdone. Any fine tuning when aiming is vertually impossible. One quick snap shot, thats it, and if i miss i find myselfe parked behind the enemy for faaar to long before he goes down. Having to counter with roll to the right all the time makes propper flying, well, hard. As i said, i must be doing something wrong with the settings, if not, i surely hope they will fine tune it (fine tuning is putting it midly).

 

Btw, does trim even work for the 109? I know rudder is adjusteble, even i flight, but is that even correct to rl?

Edited February 9, 2014 by Baron

[DD_bongodriver]

rudder is not adjustable from the cockpit in the 109, not even in real life, the in game 109 has an adjustable horizontal stabilizer which is effectively the same as trim.

Edited February 9, 2014 by DD_bongodriver

[dburne]

 

 

Btw, does trim even work for the 109? I know rudder is adjusteble, even i flight, but is that even correct to rl?

 

Yes, it is the horizontal stabilizer adjustment, rather than trim tab.

I assign the same key for it, as is assigned for trim. The trim tab on the Lagg is not yet working, but the stabilizer adjustment for the 109 is.

[Emgy]

I must be doing something seriosly wrong. If i leave my stick centered the 109 will role hard to the left.

Hard rolling sounds wrong, have you checked in control options if your stick is correctly centered when neutral? See here

(credits to MysticPuma)

[Streiff]

rudder is not adjustable from the cockpit in the 109, not even in real life, the in game 109 has an adjustable horizontal stabilizer which is effectively the same as trim.

 

 

Sry, i meant elevator/ horizontal stabilizer Thats what i was wondering, was the elevator even adjustable in flight in rl? Got a nagging feeling its a case of me confusing the 2

 

What about the ailerons/roll in game? Trim able?

Hard rolling sounds wrong, have you checked in control options if your stick is correctly centered when neutral? See here

(credits to MysticPuma)

 

 

Yep, everything centered. Maby need to tweak a little bit more.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Baron

[BlackDevil]

@pilotpierre: get rid of deadzone and curve. Needs some time to get used to, but in the end it´s much more real and easier.

[DD_bongodriver]

was the elevator even adjustable in flight in rl?

 

Yes it was, the wheel next to the flap wheel.

[dburne]

 I have pitch, yaw and roll dead zones set, although I believe the moment the setting screen is vacated they revert to zero. Try as I may I cannot overcome the porpoise effect when dogfighting and landing. Landing is the worst as the slightest correction in pitch starts the rubber band porpoise effect that I have never experienced in real life nor simming.

 

 

From what I am seeing, I believe they are holding for the current session after they are set, however upon exiting and restarting the sim, the get reset back to zero...

[EdwardTheGreat]

Sensitivity slider is all the way to the right Fifi, always has been.

 

There we have the problem. (Edit: One possible problem.)

 

If you fly the plane at the aerodynamical limits you can not control that as well because of the nonlinearity.

Edited February 9, 2014 by EdwardTheGreat

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

For me, whereas the Lagg has improved over time I think the 109 has gotten worse, particularly over the last couple of early releases.

 

 

Thanks for your post pilotpierre.  Always interesting to read real pilots impression of the sim.

 

Not finding the 109 twitchy here.  The LaGG is a little more challenging but love to fly it.  Best of luck.

[JtD]

If you fly the plane at the aerodynamical limits you can not control that as well because of the nonlinearity.

That's a widespread misconception. The correct statement would be that you can't control the plane as well at the limits of control travel.

 

Often, the aerodynamic limits have long been exceeded when the control surfaces reach their limits (rudder, elevator). For instance, with a CoG not too far to the front, you'd need about 5° of elevator in a 109 to bring the plane from low AoA of high speed level flight to stalling AoA. That corresponds to about 1/6th of the one sided travel. Clearly, reducing sensitivity around the central part at the expense of sensitivity at the limits of travel is a very good idea.

Edited February 9, 2014 by JtD

[Wolfstriked]

Is something wrong with the slip model?I always thought that the slip ball indicator was offset when flying straight as as speed picked up the ball would become centered.And when you enter a turn the plane will slip and you have to add in some rudder to center the plane for coordinated flight.But in BoS the ball seems to always be offset and in the 109 perfectly centered when I make turns.When flying straight and in F4 view the plane does look like its sligtly slipping and a little bit of rudder seems to make it "look" like its tracking dead straight.

 

 

I fell in love with BoS yesterday,my first day with the sim so I hope this is not a harsh criticism or a downplay of its enormous potential.

[Volkoff]

I am sorry to hear that you are having issues, Pierre. 

 

.

To me, Lagg is getting better and better, with devs adjustments.

109 has always been nice and easy to fly, not twitchy at all, contary to Lagg of first release.

Today, both planes aren't twitchy on my rig, except the fact the rudder is still very sensitive (and the lack of trim for Lagg).

 

+1 This has been my experience. I don't know specifically what is the cause of your problems, Pierre.

 

@pilotpierre: get rid of deadzone and curve...

 

Yeah, I think that the BF-109 will be a lot easier to manage, eventually, after doing what the BlackDevil recommends, Pierre. I don't know if this will resolve all of your issues, but I think that this is a great place to start.

 

MJ

Edited February 9, 2014 by =69.GIAP=MIKHA

[pilotpierre]

Thanks for all the responses guys, and it take cognisance of them.

 

However, I reiterate, I use the same setting for both a/c and have absolutely no problem with the LaGG even with no trim, it is just the 109 that twitches and porpoises.

 

I can line the LaGG with the runway and make small adjustments if necessary all the way down and still stay lined up. With the 109 a slight movement of the joystick and away it goes vertically and horizontally.

 

To me the LaGG feels heavy and is controllable, the 109 feels like a feather and acts like one. Doing a 180 turn when strafing if I'm not particularly careful I end up nearly inverted.

[Wolfstriked]

There we have the problem. (Edit: One possible problem.)

 

If you fly the plane at the aerodynamical limits you can not control that as well because of the nonlinearity.

 This right here I "think" is the issue you may be having Pierre,with the 109.The problem with non linearity is that the joystick is shallow and non-sensitive in middle and then suddenly it has to get more sensitive.."Maybe the cure is to trim it out so you are landing and flaring with the stick centered?

[Fifi]

Thanks for all the responses guys, and it take cognisance of them.

 

However, I reiterate, I use the same setting for both a/c and have absolutely no problem with the LaGG even with no trim, it is just the 109 that twitches and porpoises.

 

I can line the LaGG with the runway and make small adjustments if necessary all the way down and still stay lined up. With the 109 a slight movement of the joystick and away it goes vertically and horizontally.

 

To me the LaGG feels heavy and is controllable, the 109 feels like a feather and acts like one. Doing a 180 turn when strafing if I'm not particularly careful I end up nearly inverted.

 

There is a problem here! It shouldn't occur with the 109...but more with the Lagg!

At least it's what i get here.

 

Maybe you should try a recovery? Maybe a corrupt file somewhere?

(save your input folder before, cause the recovery will reset all your mappings)

That's all i could see...

[Uriah]

I want to get a better understanding of just what I am seeing here.  If I have this setting for the pitch with the sensitivity slider all the way to the right it appears to me that the joy stick is giving me MORE affect than the distance I move it.  While if I move the slider all the way to the left I get the exact same movement as the stick moves.  Anyway, either way I find the 109 fine.  On take off and landing I so have to give the right amount of right rudder which has taken a while to learn.  I have not tried the Lagg in so long I can't compare the two.

 

[Wolfstriked]

I want to get a better understanding of just what I am seeing here.  If I have this setting for the pitch with the sensitivity slider all the way to the right it appears to me that the joy stick is giving me MORE affect than the distance I move it.  While if I move the slider all the way to the left I get the exact same movement as the stick moves.  Anyway, either way I find the 109 fine.  On take off and landing I so have to give the right amount of right rudder which has taken a while to learn.  I have not tried the Lagg in so long I can't compare the two.

The orange icon is your actual joystick movement and the white lever is the in game movement.So your moving the joystick alot more for less in game effect.

 

Quick question...what time does the game session end on weekends?

Edited February 9, 2014 by wolfstriked