HS-129 30mm cannon and fire group 1

[Sybreed]

I tried to search the forums and only saw threads that said the devs would "fix it". The problem being that when you shoot the 30 mm auto cannon, you also shoot the machine guns because they're on the same group.

 

I tried the plane tonight and it seems it's still an issue. Or perhaps I'm doing something wrong? Thx for clarifying!

Edited May 13, 2020 by LukeFF

[Swing]

it's a known issue, you haven't do something wrong. 

[CrazyDuck]

Yep, they are still grouped. Not sure how this was done historically tho. Firing them together with the 30 mm is about as convenient as an ant wandering your sniper rifle scope.

[WheelwrightPL]

And when you fire 20mm cannons on trigger #2 they sound very "meaty" and the shells travel slow and have a big drop, just like firing 30mm cannons. I wounder if that is a bug too.

[DickDong]

i get machine gun sound fine on fire group one and meaty cannon on fire group 2 ... very distinctly different, sure doesnt seem like the m103 is shooting on firegroup1

[WheelwrightPL]

10 minutes ago, Banzaii said:

i get machine gun sound fine on fire group one and meaty cannon on fire group 2 ... very distinctly different, sure doesnt seem like the m103 is shooting on firegroup1

 

Exactly. This doesn't seem right.

 

Maybe developers can chime-in ?

[F/JG300_Gruber]

1 hour ago, Banzaii said:

i get machine gun sound fine on fire group one and meaty cannon on fire group 2 ... very distinctly different, sure doesnt seem like the m103 is shooting on firegroup1

 

And yet it does, despite not making that much noise.

But once you get out of canon rounds, you can definitely notice that firegroup 1 gets quieter than before. The MK103 is making sound on top of the peashooters.

 

I think that it makes sense since the 30mm is in a pod below the airframe, while the machineguns are sitting within the airframe, 30cm away from the pilot. (Or at least that's what I want to believe )

Edited November 7, 2018 by F/JG300_Gruber

[Sybreed]

2 hours ago, Banzaii said:

i get machine gun sound fine on fire group one and meaty cannon on fire group 2 ... very distinctly different, sure doesnt seem like the m103 is shooting on firegroup1

 

just go in external view and you'll see the 30mm firing as well.

[LukeFF]

Guys, it's a coding issue that's been discussed a lot in beta testing. Not an easy fix.

[Frenchy56]

38 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

Guys, it's a coding issue that's been discussed a lot in beta testing. Not an easy fix.

Is it really? Making an additional weapon group doesn't seem like rocket science. If the devs were bothered enough with making a separate key to stow/move the gunsight on the IL-2 and G-14, they should be able to do this, right?

Edited November 7, 2018 by Frenchy56

[Avimimus]

Isn't it that coding in a 'gun select' system requires effort?

 

Surely, regrouping the guns (or even possibly offering the other grouping as a 'field mod') should be pretty quick to do. Interim fix?

[ShamrockOneFive]

On 11/7/2018 at 12:34 PM, Frenchy56 said:

Is it really? Making an additional weapon group doesn't seem like rocket science. If the devs were bothered enough with making a separate key to stow/move the gunsight on the IL-2 and G-14, they should be able to do this, right?

 

As simple as it sounds to us, having been involved with programming projects in the past tells me if they say its difficult... It is. Weapon systems and the interface system may have been designed with some core principles that aren't easily changed without bringing down a house of cards. Not impossible of course, but not something you just do without planning for it.

 

I'd really like to see this changed. At least move the machine guns to the same fire group as the 20mm as IL-2: 1946 does it. Possibly that's not easy either.

[JaffaCake]

On 11/7/2018 at 1:26 PM, WheelwrightPL said:

And when you fire 20mm cannons on trigger #2 they sound very "meaty" and the shells travel slow and have a big drop, just like firing 30mm cannons. I wounder if that is a bug too.

 

the 20mms have slower projectile speed  than the mk103 cannon.

[[PFR]Sarpalaxan]

I Think in Reality there was one trigger and a leaver to tell wich group will be fired. How ever i think in game they would have to add a third wheapongroup to the game just for the Ente and then just for when there is a cannon strapped underneath it. For the current system i think they got the best Workaround. If you have the mg's strapped to it it's correct and with the 30 mil it's the lesser of thwo evils. You waste mg instead of cannon shells if you only want to fire the cannon and you don't waste 30mill shells when you fire your canons at something. 

[MasserME262]

12 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

As simple as it sounds to us, having been involved with programming projects in the past tells me if they say its difficult... It is. Weapon systems and the interface system may have been designed with some core principles that aren't easily changed without bringing down a house of cards. Not impossible of course, but not something you just do without planning for it.

 

I'd really like to see this changed. At least move the machine guns to the same fire group as the 20mm as IL-2: 1946 does it. Possibly that's not easy either.

as a developer myself, I can asure you and everyone that when a dev says something's difficult... it isnt. Its just about priorities, its not their at the moment. I know that, and its perfect for me, I understand it completely.

Edited November 9, 2018 by ME-BFMasserME262
typos

[InProgress]

They should do like with engines. Click 4 to shoot all guns, click 5 to shoot mg only, click 6 to fire cannons etc.

[ShamrockOneFive]

23 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

as a developer myself, I can asure you and everyone that when a dev says something's difficult... it isnt. Its just about priorities, its not their at the moment. I know that, and its perfect for me, I understand it completely.

 

You'd be the first developer I've heard say something isn't difficult

 

Priorities is certainly an issue too.

 

2 minutes ago, WheelwrightPL said:

 

That's incorrect, here is the quote from the official il2 aircraft specs:

 

HS-129 Forward-firing armament:

2 x 7.92mm machine gun "MG 17", 1000 rounds, 1200 rounds per minute, nose-mounted

2 x 20mm gun "MG 151/15", 250 rounds, 700 rounds per minute, nose-mounted

2 x 20mm gun "MG 151/20", 250 rounds, 700 rounds per minute, nose-mounted (modification)

4 x 7.92mm machine gun "MG 17", 1000 rounds, 1200 rounds per minute, underbelly (modification)

30mm gun "MK 101", 30 rounds, 250 rounds per minute, underbelly (modification)

30mm gun "MK 103", 80 rounds, 400 rounds per minute, underbelly (modification)

 

He's talking about projectile speed commonly known as muzzle velocity. You're talking about fire rate in this post but I believe you were talking about muzzle velocity in your first post.

 

For reference:

MG151/20 725m/s

MK101 920m/s

MK103 860m/s

 

Source: http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-pe.html

 

So, yes the MG151/20 cannon shells do travel more slowly than those fired from the MK101 and MK103.

[Asgar]

yes, but the standard loadout of the HS 129 uses MG 151 not MG 151/20 and the 15mm have a good MV 960m/s with HE shells to be exact

[ShamrockOneFive]

16 minutes ago, Asgar said:

yes, but the standard loadout of the HS 129 uses MG 151 not MG 151/20 and the 15mm have a good MV 960m/s with HE shells to be exact

 

Good point Asgar. I made the assumption that everyone equips the MG151/20 and not the MG151/15

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Both the APCR rounds for the MK 101 and MK 103 have 960 m/s muzzle velocity. Iirc the guns have the same barrel lenght. The difference is rate of fire and ignition mechanism

Edited November 9, 2018 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[Avimimus]

6 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

Good point Asgar. I made the assumption that everyone equips the MG151/20 and not the MG151/15

 

Yeah, you'll see German designers combining Mg-151/15 and Mk-103 into 1944... (Do-335 anyone)? The reason is that they have much more similar ballistics. Being able to sight both guns (or use one to line up for the other) was seen as a higher priority than the greater explosive filling brought by the 20mm guns.

[JonRedcorn]

This has been on my wishlist for a long time and now I've forgotten to make it into a feedback reply. Wish I saw this thread sooner. I could have sworn weapon selections were on a to do list somewhere.

Edited November 10, 2018 by 15th_JonRedcorn

[Sybreed]

soooo... this hasn't been fixed right??? Can a dev pop in and give us an ETA? Kinda messes with the whole "HS-129 is a tank hunter" thingy if you keep getting distracted by your machine gun fire. Doesn't help that it's a collector plane you pay for too...

Edited December 10, 2018 by Sybreed

[Jade_Monkey]

6 hours ago, Sybreed said:

soooo... this hasn't been fixed right??? Can a dev pop in and give us an ETA? Kinda messes with the whole "HS-129 is a tank hunter" thingy if you keep getting distracted by your machine gun fire. Doesn't help that it's a collector plane you pay for to...

 

There are only two fire groups in the game at the moment, they made a choice. It's not broken, they just made a design choice. 

I agree it would be great to get more options but phrasing it like things are broken is not fair.

 

Also, you have to pay for all planes so your second point is not a very solid argument.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Jade_Monkey

[-=PHX=-Rudull]

 Please. dedicate a little of your time to this. I understand everything they say arrica but not fixing it makes a plane go from having a purpose to just being useless. I am more than 1.5 years old that I bought this plane but I cannot use it. assuming that they are very busy in the new projects and planning more things, but in the case of this airplane this is essential, it is as if the aircraft have only 1 group of weapons

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

2 hours ago, -=PHX=-Rudull said:

 Please. dedicate a little of your time to this. I understand everything they say arrica but not fixing it makes a plane go from having a purpose to just being useless. I am more than 1.5 years old that I bought this plane but I cannot use it. assuming that they are very busy in the new projects and planning more things, but in the case of this airplane this is essential, it is as if the aircraft have only 1 group of weapons

 

I'm not entirely sure why you can't use it. I have been flying the Hs129 almost exclusively for the past 3 weeks and it's great. My only wish here is that they give the MG151/15mm on the Hs129 the correct AP H-panzergranate which could penetrate 48mm of armour plate at 100m/90°. This cartridge was specially designed for killing armoured vehicles and was only issued for use in the Hs129. As far as I can tell now, the current 15mm AP is correct for the MG151/15mm on the 109F2 and the gun pods on the F4, but not for the Hs129.

[FeuerFliegen]

On 12/9/2018 at 7:30 PM, Jade_Monkey said:

 

There are only two fire groups in the game at the moment, they made a choice.

 

In the controls settings, there is an option to select a button for a third fire control... although I haven't found a single plane that utilizes it, as far as I know.

 

Do you know what the situation is with this?  Did they just put it in to have it as an option for them to implement in the future?

 

 

 

 

On 12/9/2018 at 1:01 PM, Sybreed said:

Doesn't help that it's a collector plane you pay for too...

 

I feel the same way; we might pay for ALL planes, but collector planes cost substantially more than the standard planes in the game; I think it's reasonable to expect extra attention to be paid to them.

Edited May 12, 2020 by SCG_FeuerFliegen

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, SCG_FeuerFliegen said:

although I haven't found a single plane that utilizes it, as far as I know

The sophwith dolphin use it for its upwards firing guns

[=FEW=ayamoth89]

If you use the duck for hunting red planes, you can leave all guns linked all together with awesome results.
Anyway on the real plane's stick I see 2 triggers only: so I guess 2 kind of guns (maybe 20-15 mm cannons ang Mgs had to be linked together)
 

 

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, SCG_FeuerFliegen said:

 

I feel the same way; we might pay for ALL planes, but collector planes cost substantially more than the standard planes in the game; I think it's reasonable to expect extra attention to be paid to them.

This is wrong perspective on things, if you expect more of a plane than common for the sim you will always be disappointed. 
It is not like we pay a fortune. 
Besides it was not clear if it would pay off selling it, I expected less myself. 
Anyway by the time they made this no 3 trigger was not there. It is now, and like you I hope they find time fixing it. Because it is a good idea. 
Devs have fixed a lot of things I never believed they would. Some day they might just do it. 
But for now it kind of work. If you get to survive short burst from close range with all it got work best. Get away from target and see if anyone saw the tracers. If not go back snd do it again. It is very effective and a way better fighter than reality

[Avimimus]

On 11/7/2018 at 11:58 AM, LukeFF said:

Guys, it's a coding issue that's been discussed a lot in beta testing. Not an easy fix.

 

Is it though? If they go the route of actually modelling the historical system and a fire selector it is.

 

However, if they use the third trigger - or if they use the 'field mod' system to allow selecting a different trigger arrangement before the flight it should be easier.

 

We're probably talking about only a few bytes being changed as an interim fix.

[LukeFF]

21 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

Is it though? If they go the route of actually modelling the historical system and a fire selector it is.

 

However, if they use the third trigger - or if they use the 'field mod' system to allow selecting a different trigger arrangement before the flight it should be easier.

 

We're probably talking about only a few bytes being changed as an interim fix.

 

Av, believe me, I've addressed the issue with the relevant developers more than once.  It's not an easy issue to fix, because it involves more than just changing trigger assignments.

[Avimimus]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

Av, believe me, I've addressed the issue with the relevant developers more than once.  It's not an easy issue to fix, because it involves more than just changing trigger assignments.

 

I guess I'll take your word for it sir! You've clearly had more contact on the issue (as a beta tester and part of the old guard)!

 

I just wish I could switch off the Mg-17s so that I didn't have their tracers fouling my corrections... but using the 15mm cannon to initially lay in the target and then holding stead while the cannon and machineguns do their work seems adequate.

[Asgar]

trust me he's not the only one who bugged the devs about it 
<- guilty as charged ?

 

[frosen]

Just posting to hopefully draw more attention to this ?. It feels so unrealistic to fire the MGs at the same time as I try to destroy a tank with the cannon.

[Sybreed]

Still haven't used the plane for this reason to this day! (Exaggerating a bit, always found new planes to try first but this grouping thing is quite the turn off)

Edited October 25, 2020 by Sybreed

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

Also, the ammunition for the MG151/15mm needs to be addressed. Hs129 received specially 15mm ammo with increased powder charge and special projectile that allowed it to penetrate 48mm of armour plate at 100m @ 90 degrees. Theoretically, the 15mm on the Hs129 should be able to destroy a T34 in the right conditions without even using the 30mm.

[Chief_Mouser]

When they get around to fixing it they can do this little thing at the same time: 

(Copy of an earlier post)

 

Brief description: Visual error with Hs129
Detailed description, conditions: When the Hs129 fires its standard armament the spent shell cases are ejected from the bottom of the aircraft. In reality they should be retained within the aircraft and emptied out after landing.
Additional assets (videos, screenshots, logs):

 

Guns firing and shell cases ejecting in-game:

 

 

Text from Hs129 PANZERJÄGER (2019 version) by Martin Pegg, pp. 33-35:

 

 

Underside of Hs129 showing ejection box covers, Pegg p.34:

 

 

From the information given it would appear that these box covers for the MG17 that slide open and closed would be shut before an aircraft takes off for a sortie. When it landed afterward the covers would then be slid open and the shell cases collected. In-game they are permanently open; they would be better shown as permanently closed and the empty case animation removed. In real flight open holes in the wing would affect the airflow, even if only in a minor way, which may explain why they were covered..

This does not affect the Mk101 or Mk103 cannon; the spent shells are ejected from the gun as shown in-game.

Your PC config data (OS, drivers, specific software): N/A

Edited October 27, 2020 by 216th_Cat

[Lusekofte]

Damn this topic made me want to fly the duck

[frosen]

1 hour ago, II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson said:

Also, the ammunition for the MG151/15mm needs to be addressed. Hs129 received specially 15mm ammo with increased powder charge and special projectile that allowed it to penetrate 48mm of armour plate at 100m @ 90 degrees. Theoretically, the 15mm on the Hs129 should be able to destroy a T34 in the right conditions without even using the 30mm.

 

Wow! Didn't know that. It would be awesome to, in addition to be able to fire only the 30 mm cannon, fire both the 30 mm and 15 mm cannons with AP at the same time! ?