IL2 Missing an Air Defense Tactic

[fiddlinjim]

Reading my WWII books on air combat, a tactic often used by Axis combatants was to fly in a large formation circle, so that a plane following

close behind was always protecting the six of the plane ahead.   It appears to have been moderately successful ( but not always) in protecting

fighter/bombers like the ME110 against the Hurri and Spitfire.

I think it would be interesting to have this type of air defense setup in IL2. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by fiddlinjim
left out info

[InProgress]

I remember this being worked on for cliffs of dover. I would not expect anything like this in box until they start working on AI fixing.

 

Also read somewhere that bf110 did better than it was expected and they actually had higher kill ratio vs spits and hurracines than being shot down. So they weren't that bad.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

In addition to Bf 110s, "Spanish Circle" was also used a lot by the Soviets, especially I-16 and I-153

[Legioneod]

10 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

In addition to Bf 110s, "Spanish Circle" was also used a lot by the Soviets, especially I-16 and I-153

Never heard it called Spanish circle, I've always called it a Lufbery, or are they different?

Edited October 31, 2018 by Legioneod

[Dutchvdm]

10 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Never heard it called Spanish circle, I've always called it a Luftbery, or are they different?

 

You are right, and it's a very old tactic even used in WW1 by Fe2b crew. Yes that old. 

 

Grt M

 

Offtopic..

 

Now i'm sad again. Screw the Camel! I want my Fe2b back in Il-2

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by I./ZG1_Martijnvdm

[Yardstick]

Also called the Lufbery Circle.  I recall reading that Bf110s we’re still using this tactic against 8th AAF FGs.  The American pilots just boom and zoomed them to combat it and decimated the Luftwaffe heavy day / night fighter units.

 

I'm showing my age but the Bf110s in Chuck Yeager’s Air Combat employed the same tactic.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

3 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Never heard it called Spanish circle, I've always called it a Lufbery, or are they different?

 

Ahh yes, Axis pilots called it Spanish circle or Spanish fly. Soviets used it in Spain(hence the name) already against faster 109s.

[Legioneod]

1 minute ago, Yardstick said:

Also called the Lufbery Circle.  I recall reading that Bf110s we’re still using this tactic against 8th AAF FGs.  The American pilots just boom and zoomed them to combat it and decimated the Luftwaffe heavy day / night fighter units.

 

I'm showing my age but the Bf110s in Chuck Yeager’s Air Combat employed the same tactic.

 

It's actually a very good tactic, many 109 pilots used it against allied fighters to good effect. If only players online would use actual combat tactics like this, it's make things very interesting. I've only seen it online once I think.

[EAF19_Marsh]

There is  slight difference between a defensive circle (Fe2bs / 110s) and covering each other's tail / dragging (fighters). Essentially the former have little chance to attack, the latter are swapping the hunter-killer function.

 

Though as with all things there are no doubt many examples of variations and overlap.

[RedKestrel]

Yeah, pretty much everyone used these tactics at some point in the war, especially with slower, outclassed fighters. Il-2's used them too when attacking columns, with individual planes leaving the circle to attack and then returning, taking turns doing it so no one was exposed for long. 

Lufberrys work best when your enemy is going for a rear quarter attack without high closure. If they come in fast enough at a larger angle they'll take their snap shot, slash through the formation, extend, and climb up to do it all over again. Its also impossible to leave the circle while under attack without exposing yourself and all your comrades to the enemy. 

As a defensive formation its really a last resort, but it yields the initiative to the enemy in a big way and basically neutralizes you as an offensive force and puts you in a defensive mindset, which the aggressor pilot will exploit. 
 

[fiddlinjim]

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

Yeah, pretty much everyone used these tactics at some point in the war, especially with slower, outclassed fighters. Il-2's used them too when attacking columns, with individual planes leaving the circle to attack and then returning, taking turns doing it so no one was exposed for long. 

Lufberrys work best when your enemy is going for a rear quarter attack without high closure. If they come in fast enough at a larger angle they'll take their snap shot, slash through the formation, extend, and climb up to do it all over again. Its also impossible to leave the circle while under attack without exposing yourself and all your comrades to the enemy. 

As a defensive formation its really a last resort, but it yields the initiative to the enemy in a big way and basically neutralizes you as an offensive force and puts you in a defensive mindset, which the aggressor pilot will exploit. 
 

A very good explanation of the principle for the Luftberry  circle tactics. 

I would hope that the Devs would incorporate the Luftberry into an A.I. defensive tactic as it would be great fun to fly against.

Edited October 31, 2018 by fiddlinjim
clarity

[InProgress]

They already fly in circles so... 

[PatrickAWlson]

22 hours ago, Legioneod said:

 

It's actually a very good tactic, many 109 pilots used it against allied fighters to good effect. If only players online would use actual combat tactics like this, it's make things very interesting. I've only seen it online once I think.

 

From my reading it wasn't that great if the opposition used B&Z tactics against it.  The mistake is to lock onto the tail of one and let his buddy saddle up on you.  If you dive into the formation, take a shot, and zoom away the circle doesn't work that well.

[[APAF]VR_Spartan85]

I agree too that I don’t like the way fighters cover bombers in sp too.. especially when they spot a flight a flight of ground pounders 10 km away that has nothing to do with the mission, it’s called out by even your pilot and everyone is off....they should stick with the bombers at all times... unless it’s a threat.

also, how come bombers don’t fly in box for maximum coverage?  

They’re always in a kinda  “ > -  “ That being the V formation but the lead is out of formation ahead... 

 

this is also goes with fighter formation following...    the plane next to you does not does not respond to your separation .. so if your number 2 and following lead, 

first off the rest of the flight will be way behind you... second number 3 won’t respond to your flying to adjust spacing...

 

 

[EAF19_Marsh]

There is the AI issue and the circle issue, I cannot image the second being possible without addressing the first.

 

No formation starts circling offensively, but many have used it to mitigate a disadvantage.