Feasibility of adjusted targets for high altitude flights

[LuftManu]

 

Hello everyone, in this thread I would like to ask a question and provide some ideas on the advantages and disadvantages of having high-altitude targets for the new airframes of Bodenplatte.

Would it be possible to have high-altitude targets for the recent (hopefully) launch of the P-47 and the future additions of the expansion?

Knowing that many of the planes benefit greatly from the conditions of the flight in height. I think that some objectives of this nature could be exploited. Currently with the Bodenplatte planes available I think we could use escort missions at high altitude.

What I am thinking?

I am thinking of escort missions of bomber flights who spawn in mid-flight in one corner of the Battle area and then move towards another known point. The allied planes would get a call 15 minutes and then every 5 minutes for a rendevous point with them. I know that AI it's a limitation but let's pretend they fix this for this purpouse. Would it be feasible?
In a mission that runs for 3 hours, 3 Bomber flight runs composed for, lets say, 15 bombers that lasts 45 min in my opinion can be a great experience for both sides. Servers like KOTA or WOL would benefit to have this objetcive in addition to those. The only problem might be the map that we have at this time.

 

This kind of objective can also be made in a tactical server like TAW with an special option or even as something that repeats itself in the Bodenplatte map. No need for extra points, just bomber raids wiich grant kills for the Luftwaffe (Great in pilot kills/ airframes down) and also for the pilots escorting them.

 

I know this is too much (What if) But I would love to hear your ideas and opinions. 

Kind regards

Edited October 29, 2018 by LF_ManuV

[RedKestrel]

I think we have to start with the factors that led to the American bombing campaigns being conducted the way they were. High-altitude bombing raids are a thing because of the danger of interception and flak. Higher up, its harder for flak to hit you, and harder for enemy fighters to intercept you. It often gets you 'above the weather' that so often obscured targets and made flight conditions hazardous and frustrating. 

A server could naturally incentivize such raids, I think. If the raids start in the air, but the luftwaffe has to scramble and climb to meet them, that could incentivize higher flying. Locked low fuel settings for allied fighters could force caution from fighters who are flying at the edge of their range (especially if they must land at a friendly airfield on the map somewhere). Lots of ace light flak concentrated around the target would make low level attacks nearly impossible.

One issue will largely be targeting by the bombers - bombing from 8k is difficult when the draw distance is only 9.5k. A way around this would be to scatter targets in built up areas near identifiable landmarks to make lining up a bombing run easier. You can generally ID cities and towns from beyond the 9.5k bubble. You would essentially implement 'area bombing' with the entire town as the target, rather than specific facilities. Naturally, this kind of attack would necessitate a large number of bombers to saturate the area enough to actually hit the targets - which to my understanding is basically the whole idea of the strategic bombing campaign!

the issues would be:
-concentrating enough bomber pilots to make strategic bombing of this type feasible and effective
-a useful bomber for the scenario - the A-20 seems likely as a playable plane, and the rumored B-25 could be used if it indeed comes as AI only.
-dealing with the issues of lag/framerate from large number of planes
-coordinating the raid itself.
-successfully disincentivizing low-alt suicide runs

I would love a high-altitude raid escort mission, either as a co-op or as a revolving server mission. But there would be hurdles. It would probably work best between organized squadrons , with one side playing the bombers and escorts and the others playing the attackers. A defined start point would make it a lot easier to keep things together.

Altogether I think my ideas here could be workable but might not be palatable for a lot of fliers with limited time, who want a little more freedom in their missions. And I confess I don't know much of the technical side of mission planning as far as how this could work. But I think if I wanted to arrange an escorted bomber raid multiplayer scenario I would start with something like this.

 

[[TWB]Sauerkraut-]

I posted a topic about this what seems like forever ago.

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree. The high altitude combat was as much a staple of the Western front as low altitude combat was a staple of the Eastern front. I think it would be a shame and very much wasted potential if high altitude targets/objectives are not explored in Bondenplatte. Not only wasted potential for the game play, but for the aircraft themselves. If you are always forced to fight on the deck in your american fighters, you really won't be getting the full experience.

[CountZero]

15 bombers on online server lol thats min of 30 slots less on server, and 84 slots is to little on wol, there is reason servers dont use ai bombers in this game and its not that they didnt think about this idea of adding them as one more objective. I like idea of ai bomber flights to be objective to protect and so on but this game cant handle that online unless you limit numbers on server drasticly. In CloD that works like a charm, 100+ players and 20-30+ AI i played it there, here no way with state of netcode and ai bombers demands.

Edited October 29, 2018 by 77.CountZero

[LuftManu]

27 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

15 bombers on online server lol thats min of 30 slots less on server, and 84 slots is to little on wol, there is reason servers dont use ai bombers in this game and its not that they didnt think about this idea of adding them as one more objective. I like idea of ai bomber flights to be objective to protect and so on but this game cant handle that online unless you limit numbers on server drasticly. In CloD that works like a charm, 100+ players and 20-30+ AI i played it there, here no way with state of netcode and ai bombers demands.

Of course, AI bombers

[DD_Arthur]

Agree with CountZero.  However,  if RoF is anything to go by a formation of three or four A20's would work.

 

  It would add a new dimension and incentive both for escort and interception at altitude.   

[Pedersen]

Would it be completely impossible to have a much simpler AI for a bomber formation and simpler flightmodel? If they only need to keep a heading and speed and only serve as a backdrop and "static" target for enemy fighters. Maybe it would look too goofy 

[sevenless]

I agree. Also in SP (career) for BoPl we need high altitude missions. That´s were the US fighters excelled. If we have most scenarios between 1k and 3k as we have in BoM/BoS/BoK the US planes don´t shine that much. So I´d like to see tons of figher support for a crapload of A20s or B25s flying bombing runs at 5000 - 8000 metres.

[kramer]

 

[Cpt_Siddy]

Increase contrails draw distance. 

[PatrickAWlson]

Talking single player or coop here, not MP:

 

This is still a tactical air war sim, so even if the planes were used at high altitudes when doing strategic escort, they were not flying at high altitude when doing tactical.  I'm also not aware if B25s or any of the other bombers available in the game being used at strategic altitudes.

 

It could be done, but with limitations.  Number of bombers actually on the map at any time would be limited by each individual computer's capability.  You could at least get to 8K without a problem as that is just a mission setting.

 

Waves are certainly possible, just don't spawn the bombers until they are in range.  The first wave would be gone by the time the second spawned.  That has not been tried and would only work if the in game memory cleanup is handled well, but it is feasible.  Here's the thing about waves that makes me think the value is limited: by the time the second wave arrives you will have pretty much expended fuel and ammo on the first.  Your formation will be scattered - really it's time to go home.  Are you then going to go charging into a second wave of bombers with depleted ammo and no help?  

 

 

 

[CountZero]

15 hours ago, LF_ManuV said:

Of course, AI bombers

 

Yes im talking about AI bombers they are problem if you wont to have many of them on servers.

 

Regarding WoL and similar servers the way ground targets are set is if you play to win missions and close the objectives faster then enemy side you have to fly low and drop each bomb on each building or bunker and so on... even on factory or airbase targets that are suposed to be for carpet bombing and not so pinpoint like artilary or tanks. 

What would help in having human bombers flying higher and then human figghters who fly high have any impact, is that some targets are area targets that count how many bombs are drop in some designated industrial area or airbase like it was in il-2 clod online servers. 

That way you can close objective with only bombing from high alt, and then impact of 9,5km visability would not be problem as thouse targets can be in industrial area of city or airbases that can be sean from far, also over thouse targets you place insted useal mix of low alt flaks and high alt flaks in same number, more low alt flaks so it discurages low alt bombing of thouse targets, this is how they can aword high alt bomber guys who fly high, as now because of the way targets like factory and airbases are set to be finished high alt bombing of them is not as effective as just fly low and pin point drop bombs in pe2 or he111 on each building or static airplane or truck to destroy objective mutch faster and win missions. The way missions are set now is perfect for low alt fights and if they stay same it will be same when bobp comes, so i expect some to fly high like now but their impact to outcom of missions is minimal, and most will fly low and destroy targets by flying low.

 

 

[Cpt_Siddy]

Well, since you cant close AF's by bombing runways, you have no other option but to drop your bombs at low alt to hit the small shacks on the field.

 

When in reality, turning your runways to potato fields usually closed the shop down for week or two.