Macchi 202 - really?

[ATA_Vasilij]

Hi all,

well, I took the special autumn price and bought Macchi 202 collector plane.

 

After one evening of flying this plane I must say this: It is the worst plane ever. It is even so dangerous for the pilot (for me), that I would prohibit to use it and now I fully understand why is this plane taken so rarely on multiplayer servers.

 

In negative G the plane goes into the stall, from which is unable retake the control.

When damaged it is so hard to fly, much more than others.

When I didnt take panzerglass on cockpit, I got pilot killed two times in a raw even when probably 2 balls hit my plane.

Engine stopped almost immediatelly after damage.

 

Armor without 2 cannons (so only two guns) is just useless they take absolutely no damage.

 

My question to the developers: 

Is this plane modelled correctly? Is the flight model according to the reality, Are you sure?

Was this plane such terrible also in real?

 

 

 

[LeLv76_Erkki]

I think it falls somewhere between 109 E and 109 F-2. Closer to F-2 though. Its very fragile as you noticed, but so are the 109s...

 

Its actually fairly fast especially higher up, and turns well at all speeds. Guns are pretty worthless so you want to use the 2 wing machine guns. Dont use wing cannons, they slow you down too much. Actually dont bother with armor glass either. Its faster than LaGG-3 above 4500 m and faster than Yak-1, Yak-7 above 5000 m. Faster than P-40 at all altitudes and especially above 5000 m.

 

Notice that in MC.202 the boost button works, and what it does is that it increases engine RPM by 200. Fly cruise and save fuel without it and engage it for combat and for more performance. You are faster with "boost" and 1.2 ATA (continuous) than lower 2200 RPM and 1.2 ATA. Above certain altitude(5000 -ish) you need to engage boost to reach 1.2 ATA anyway.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

I think the issue with the MC 202 is that the 109 shadows it in speed and maneuverability at low speed, which are important aspects when dealing with the Soviet planes. The MC 202 isn't as fast, and in fact it's slower at low altitudes than the 1942 Soviet fighters, while the assimetrical wing desing makes it temperamental in low speed handling. Think that it has a Bf 109E engine, in this regard it compares favorably with the Emil.

On the plus side, the MC 202 has good high speed handling, good roll rate and elevator authority, good dive speed limit and strong airframe. It didn't have that much of a participation on the Eastern Front. It is a plane that's much optimal in it's natural theater against early Hurricanes and P-40s. Also it is described as a plane very well paired with the Spitfire Mk V, however in game the Spit utilizes late 1942 engine settings (+16 boost) which tip the balance in it's favour in speed and climbrate.

With a +12 limited Spitfire, and slowed down by tropical filters, I can see both planes being rather similar in their climb and speed characteristics as often mentioned.

I could see the MC 205, with the much more powerful DB 605 engine and MG 151/20 internal wing cannons being a very good plane for 1943 settings, however we wont see it anytime soon, unless a radical change in game direction happens.

Edited October 26, 2018 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[ZachariasX]

The MC 202 is a nice early war plane. I find it a bit easier to handle than the 109E or F, as it reatains maneuvrability more across the speed range. It is a bit more "Yak" than the 109. It is totall underarmed, yes. But blame the Italians for that, not the devs. Just keep in mind it is a 1941 plane and pair it with such, and it does ok.

[sevenless]

Enjoy!

 

 

[Ehret]

57 minutes ago, 3.IAP_Vasilij said:

In negative G the plane goes into the stall, from which is unable retake the control.

When damaged it is so hard to fly, much more than others.

When I didnt take panzerglass on cockpit, I got pilot killed two times in a raw even when probably 2 balls hit my plane.

 

The 202 has asymmetrical wings to (partially) nullify some effects of single propeller. Thus, stalls can be much worse than otherwise. Pros are the plane stays coordinated by herself between 400-500km/h, has very good dive with high red-line, and nose mounted heavy machine guns have plenty ammo (400 rpg) and good chance of starting fires.

 

The best gunnery technique (imho) for the MC is to use HMGs as kind of hose. Open fire, keep it and try to intersect the target with bullets stream.

[adler_1]

its home really was Lybia 1941 replacing the C42 the Fiat G50 and MC200 battling the early Hurricanes and Kittyhawks until it was obsolete the following year with the arrival off the Spit V and VC . 

[Barnacles]

1 hour ago, 3.IAP_Vasilij said:

Hi all,

well, I took the special autumn price and bought Macchi 202 collector plane.

 

After one evening of flying this plane I must say this: It is the worst plane ever. It is even so dangerous for the pilot (for me), that I would prohibit to use it and now I fully understand why is this plane taken so rarely on multiplayer servers.

 

In negative G the plane goes into the stall, from which is unable retake the control.

When damaged it is so hard to fly, much more than others.

When I didnt take panzerglass on cockpit, I got pilot killed two times in a raw even when probably 2 balls hit my plane.

Engine stopped almost immediatelly after damage.

 

Armor without 2 cannons (so only two guns) is just useless they take absolutely no damage.

 

My question to the developers: 

Is this plane modelled correctly? Is the flight model according to the reality, Are you sure?

Was this plane such terrible also in real?

 

 

 

You're right I think. I reckon it has whatever the p40 and fw190 used to have pre major flight model update. It's just there were a lot more people with an interest in those planes rather than the mc202, so things got changed.

[ATA_Vasilij]

OK, all answers are welcomed and appreciated. thanks.

[CrazyDuck]

I find P-40E vs Macchi a superb 1941 matchup, one has agility and climb, the other has guuunnzzz.

Edited October 26, 2018 by CrazyDuck

[Barnacles]

I do love flying it though. It's a beautifully modelled plane, and although there's usually more competitive fighters available it makes a change from 109s and 190s all the time. It just seems to snap stall so easily, a bit like the 190 used to do.

[CrazyDuck]

Also, too much shouldn't be expected from this plane. It's not to be compared to our ingame Yaks and Laggs which came later and are in a different league (due to their uprated 105PF). Unfortunately we don't have the early 105P(A) equipped initial series Yak-1 and Lagg-3 (series 4 for example).

 

It should be pitted vs "Moscow league" MiG, I-16, 109E/F2 and P-40. And in this environment I find it quite competitive. Its speedy and excellent climber and diver - also two HMGs in the nose with good ammo load can ruin someones day.

 

[Soilworker]

I love the cramped cockpit in VR, nothing to with the performance of course but it's a great feeling. ?

[Pedersen]

It is one of my favorite planes in the game but yes very difficult to fly and the guns are very frustrating and underpowered. To me it seems there is a sweetspot between where the plane will almost topple in a weird stall and being able to turn amazingly. Good use of rudder and flaps at low speeds can outturn many planes I find. It also works well in diving attacks if one is patient enough with many times not getting a kill if it is with the 50. cals. 

I'd say fly a bit higher until you learn the stall behavior and yes i wonder too if the guns are really supposed to be that ineffective 

[7.GShAP/Silas]

It's the only plane in the sim that makes me feel like Porco Rosso.  It feels like the engineers that designed it focused less on killing the enemy and more on a work of art.  Or maybe not.

 

Edited October 26, 2018 by 7.GShAP/Silas

[Lusekofte]

I am no expert in this plane, in fact in no fighter plane . Got something to do with my interest in them. My biggest mistake is I never push them to the limits, mostly because I do not want to blow up the engine and I haven't bothered to learn them. The few times I flown the MC 202 however , I found it to be very responsive, easy to fly and a great ground attacker. 

I said the same about the FW 190 while others complained about it. But the fact was then and now with the MC 202. You could get to a target and home again. And you hit the target.

In Single player I do really good against enemy fighters, something about it making me aim right.

 

Being responsive and stable weapon platform is something I do not see too often.

Edited October 26, 2018 by LuseKofte

[Rjel]

I think it flies great, looks great. Not an expert but I've flown it a lot. Very responsive, climbs pretty well. Does aerobatics very well. It's a fun plane to fly. It wouldn't be my first choice as a combat plane though.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The 202 is one of my favorite Axis planes in the sim so far.  It's a delight to fly and even better to look at.

 

Che bella macchina!

[Cybermat47]

The top P-40 ace, top Allied desert ace, and top Australian ace of WWII, Clive Caldwell, considered it to be one of the best planes of the war.

[ITAF_Rani]

It depends how you are going to fly this warbird.

Look at Mr.X videos.

He is very dangerous( like always) also in this plane !!

 

 

[CanadaOne]

I like the 202, if for no other reason than it's one more excellently modeled BOX plane that I get to fly.  

 

I bought it just to support the team, but it turned out to be a lot of fun.

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

I like it for boom and zoom as its handling and altitude performance are good.  The bredas are pretty good at starting fires so I would aim appropriately.  I do like the mg151 pods for the exponential firepower increase to aid in the boom aspect of bnz and they feel to me less penalizing (realitively?) to performance.  In multiplayer I think I've been killed more by 109s and aa than vvs fighters.  

[Guest deleted@134347]

7 hours ago, 3.IAP_Vasilij said:

Hi all,

well, I took the special autumn price and bought Macchi 202 collector plane.

My question to the developers: 

Is this plane modelled correctly? Is the flight model according to the reality, Are you sure?

Was this plane such terrible also in real?

 

 

it's not a terrible plane, but it requires a completely different style to flying compared with everything else. It requires a lot of patience and it teaches you that patience otherwise it will punish you. I would say you need about 2-3 weeks of constant flying to understand Macchi's potential. It has an extremely strong elevator authority and thusly it can stall out on you in pretty much any maneuver if you pull or push on the stick a bit too hard (think fw190 stalling x 10 = macchi). This stall is actually extremely valuable in a dog fight as it allows you to avoid the enemy at very last moment. Also, focus on learning how to maintain Energy in it, my advice is to get in 1x1 fights with AI Mig3  and try to catch it whilst carrying 20mm gunpods. Once you master/understand how to do it with the 20mm it'll be a lot easier with .30+50cal's.

[=FEW=Hauggy]

The flying is not half bad but the armament on the other hand is awful and it's a fragile thing.

It's so bad that the devs decided to put the prototype 20mm gondolas that were certainly never used in combat.

Not my favorite plane but I like the idea of having an Italian plane that actually was used on the Eastern Front.

[RedKestrel]

8 hours ago, 3.IAP_Vasilij said:

Hi all,

well, I took the special autumn price and bought Macchi 202 collector plane.

 

After one evening of flying this plane I must say this: It is the worst plane ever. It is even so dangerous for the pilot (for me), that I would prohibit to use it and now I fully understand why is this plane taken so rarely on multiplayer servers.

 

In negative G the plane goes into the stall, from which is unable retake the control.

When damaged it is so hard to fly, much more than others.

When I didnt take panzerglass on cockpit, I got pilot killed two times in a raw even when probably 2 balls hit my plane.

Engine stopped almost immediatelly after damage.

 

Armor without 2 cannons (so only two guns) is just useless they take absolutely no damage.

 

My question to the developers: 

Is this plane modelled correctly? Is the flight model according to the reality, Are you sure?

Was this plane such terrible also in real?

 

 

 

I remember reading pilots accounts from both sides that said the MC202 was not very impressive against contemporary aircraft it faced - its biggest successes were in North Africa against the cast offs of the RAF. The MC205 on the other hand was widely considered to be a stellar aircraft, but came too late in the war and in too small of numbers for it to change Italy's fortunes.

EDIT: Not to say that it didn't have its successes, or it was a bad fighter, it was apparently very successful in NA campaign. But we have to remember it was fighting  Gladiators (pre-war biplanes), Hurricanes (which were nearly obsolete in 1940, not to mention 41 and 42, ) and tropic equipped spitfires (which had reduced performance). 
 

Edited October 26, 2018 by RedKestrel

[ITAF_Rani]

7 hours ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

You are faster with "boost" and 1.2 ATA (continuous) than lower 2200 RPM and 1.2 ATA. Above certain altitude(5000 -ish) you need to engage boost to reach 1.2 ATA anyway

How mutch time you can fly with Ata 1.2 and boost activated?

This coming to be an interesting post about flying the Macchi, I add also this pic made by Requiem.

To me also this plane is almost unknown.

Everyone have data about handling his engine is wellcomed

 

[Luftschiff]

I adore the Macchi, as a plane - but not as a fighter. It is one of my absolute favourites in the game in a wide variety of aspects, ranging from looks (GORGEOUS) to handling, temperament, comfort... But I do believe that is is worse than it ought to be, and probably the worst plane in the game currently. Now, of course you can be successful in it, but comparing it with any other plane in the game, even older planes like the I-16, it is completely outmatched. I fly it every now in then in MP because it's such a pleasure to fly, but I know I'm signing myself up for one-shot destruction as soon as an enemy is within view.

 

It saddens me, because its profile makes me drool - but it is unfortunately mostly in SP I get to get my grubby mitts on it and try to figure out how to pronounce Radiogionomiomononomgnomeionomoemetro.

[Guest deleted@134347]

3 minutes ago, Luftschiff said:

I adore the Macchi, as a plane - but not as a fighter. It is one of my absolute favourites in the game in a wide variety of aspects, ranging from looks (GORGEOUS) to handling, temperament, comfort... But I do believe that is is worse than it ought to be, and probably the worst plane in the game currently. Now, of course you can be successful in it, but comparing it with any other plane in the game, even older planes like the I-16, it is completely outmatched. I fly it every now in then in MP because it's such a pleasure to fly, but I know I'm signing myself up for one-shot destruction as soon as an enemy is within view.

 

It saddens me, because its profile makes me drool - but it is unfortunately mostly in SP I get to get my grubby mitts on it and try to figure out how to pronounce Radiogionomiomononomgnomeionomoemetro.

 

oh you're so wrong..     Mc202 is faster than i16 and will outclimb it with ease.

 

I had successfully dueled with Mc202 against Mig3, i16's and p40. And it's matched very nicely with those. It can even stand its ground against the yak 69 series, although a veery skillful maneuvering in .69 can topple 202.  Lagg3 is the only plane that I have trouble fighting against.. just haven't figured out the tactics against it...

 

 

[Luftschiff]

Just now, moosya said:

 

oh you're so wrong..     Mc202 is faster than i16 and will outclimb it with ease.

 

I had successfully dueled with Mc202 against Mig3, i16's and p40. And it's matched very nicely with those. It can even stand its ground against the yak 69 series, although a veery skillful maneuvering in .69 can topple 202.  Lagg3 is the only plane that I have trouble fighting against.. just haven't figured out the tactics against it...

 

 

 

Wrong in what way? I know it is faster, but in a competitive setting your chances of scoring and surviving are still better in an I-16. As I said, it is possible to score well in the Macchi, I have done so myself, but I maintain that it is the worst plane in the game (for its intended role).

[CrazyDuck]

3 minutes ago, moosya said:

 

oh you're so wrong..     Mc202 is faster than i16 and will outclimb it with ease.

 

I had successfully dueled with Mc202 against Mig3, i16's and p40. And it's matched very nicely with those. It can even stand its ground against the yak 69 series, although a veery skillful maneuvering in .69 can topple 202.  Lagg3 is the only plane that I have trouble fighting against.. just haven't figured out the tactics against it...

 

That's my sentiment exactly. Versus its own "colleagues" from year '41 (I-16, MiG, P-40, Bf109E/F2) it's only outclassed by F2 in my opinion. It can toy with the rest, in particular due to superior climb. Now comparing it to younger generation from '42 (Yak-1s69, Lagg-3,..) is not really fair, it should be compared to to the '41 versions of these aircraft (equipped with weaker VK-105P instead of VK-105PF), which we sadly don't have in the sim.

[Guest deleted@134347]

25 minutes ago, Luftschiff said:

 

but in a competitive setting your chances of scoring and surviving are still better in an I-16.

 

obviously you have a use case in mind here?

I'm talking about in my duels with this plane I have higher survivability in 202 than in i-16.

 

edit:  just re-read your reply. I think you mean you fly better in i-16 than in 202, which is completely understandable. My point was in duel matches 202 x i16 or 202 x p40  or  even 202 x mig3  it can do wonders.

Edited October 26, 2018 by moosya

[Luftschiff]

I'm sure you do, and I congratulate you for it! The world needs more Macchi aces - but such data is statistically insignificant, and while I would be interested in seeing a qualitative analysis, I have neither time nor inclination. Don't get the wrong impression, I love just about everything about the 202. Compared to the FM, DM and Survivability  of its contemporaries in this game, however, and perhaps even compared to its historical performance, I do not consider it to be what it should. In any given time-appropriate MP scenario I can think of, there's another plane that'll be a better choice - regardless of mission profile. I'll still fly it based on personal preference, but were I to select a real ride to fight and die in, given the in-game FM's, the macchi would be far, far down.

 

In a duel on equal terms, however, I have no insight, and defer to your experience in the matter. 

[LeLv76_Erkki]

MC.202 is far superior to I-16. The speed gap alone is too large.

 

Rani, I will contact you

 

[Bremspropeller]

I think Mario Castoldi was a genius and his designs are very sexy - just think about his racing flotplanes.

Another great italian designer was Stelio Frati of F8L Falco and SF260 fame.

 

 

[Guest deleted@134347]

29 minutes ago, Luftschiff said:

I'm sure you do, and I congratulate you for it! The world needs more Macchi aces - but such data is statistically insignificant, and while I would be interested in seeing a qualitative analysis, I have neither time nor inclination. Don't get the wrong impression, I love just about everything about the 202. Compared to the FM, DM and Survivability  of its contemporaries in this game, however, and perhaps even compared to its historical performance, I do not consider it to be what it should. In any given time-appropriate MP scenario I can think of, there's another plane that'll be a better choice - regardless of mission profile. I'll still fly it based on personal preference, but were I to select a real ride to fight and die in, given the in-game FM's, the macchi would be far, far down.

 

In a duel on equal terms, however, I have no insight, and defer to your experience in the matter. 

 

understood, it took me couple of minutes to get where you're coming from, and something tells me you may be on the right path. I-16 does have superior cockpit visibility.. you're pretty much sitting on top of the plane and can spot the baddies far easier than in mc202, hence increasing i-16's survivability!  You're absolutely right!

 

[Alexmarine]

1 hour ago, ITAF_Rani said:

How mutch time you can fly with Ata 1.2 and boost activated?

 

Everyone have data about handling his engine is wellcomed

 

 

 

[Guest deleted@134347]

with boost ON and 69% power (around 1.25) or like a 12 o'clock on the dial  you can fly unlimited. Because of the boost, however, it will burn thru fuel a lot faster.

 

And with 1.35ata with boost on you got around 6-8 minutes before the engine blows up.

[rolikiraly]

I used to think that the Macchi is terrible, but then i realized in my case it's probably 90% me, as i'm bad in Bf-109 and FW-190 as well.

 

Anyway, my personal subjective impression is that it should be better than an 1942 LaGG variant.

 

It was mainly used in '42, Africa and Russia, got nothing to do (historically) with Moscow or I-16s. It replaced primarily the MC. 200. It's at least contemporary to 109F-4 and was used along the Gs. I would guess that the most common opponents were the Tomahawks and early Kittyhawks, but also some Hurricanes and more importantly, Spitfire Vs. Not Gladiators etc. 

Still, from what i can recall, it was generally considered to be a very good fighter, minus the armament. And the 205 was for some reason based on it and was said to be very good while still looking really similar to the 202.

So, something might be off a little bit, but we'll never really "know".

[Guest deleted@134347]

it would be awesome if we got 205... one can only wish...

[Thad]

5 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The 202 is one of my favorite Axis planes in the sim so far.  It's a delight to fly and even better to look at.

 

Che bella macchina!

I have to agree that the 202 is very good looking aircraft.