Thrustmaster T16000M FCS HOTAS? Decent for Il-2?

[Mugwump]

My Sidewinder 2 FFB is on its deathbed.  Looking for a new HOTAS system.  I have an X-55 Rhino.  I like the throttle a lot but I hate the stick.  I also have a CH Products stick and throttle but the joystick doesn't have a twisty stick (I can't use pedals) so it's of limited use.  I was looking at picking up the T16000M but I'm a bit worried that the lack of rotaries/axes will make CEM a bit of a chore.  Anyone have experience with the Thrustmaster?  How well/poorly does it work with IL-2?

 

Thanks.

[Sokol1]

You can buy only T.16000M and use with X-55 throttle that provide you some rotaries.

 

TWCS throttle has 4 extra axes in 1 rotarie and  3  in paddle and mini-stick  - but these 3 almost useless  for WWII planes because have spring that keep axex in center.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Sokol1

[NiiranenVR]

Or you can go on eBay and buy a 'new' Microsoft ffb

[SCG_ErwinP]

13 hours ago, Mugwump said:

My Sidewinder 2 FFB is on its deathbed.  Looking for a new HOTAS system.  I have an X-55 Rhino.  I like the throttle a lot but I hate the stick.  I also have a CH Products stick and throttle but the joystick doesn't have a twisty stick (I can't use pedals) so it's of limited use.  I was looking at picking up the T16000M but I'm a bit worried that the lack of rotaries/axes will make CEM a bit of a chore.  Anyone have experience with the Thrustmaster?  How well/poorly does it work with IL-2?

 

Thanks.

I have one and it presented problems in two pots (Yaw and Accelerator and there aren't warranty in Brazil).

The pitch/roll stick is great!

[Diggun]

I have the stick, throttle and pedals, and I think they are fantastic for the price point. My biggest gripe is the neon orange Elite Dangerous styling.

[Sokol1]

4 hours ago, 3./JG15_HansPhilipp said:

I have one and it presented problems in two pots (Yaw and Accelerator and there aren't warranty in Brazil).

The pitch/roll stick is great!

 

This is normal and expected, T.16000M is a "entry-level" joystick (low cost) and in secondary axes industry use low cost/quality potentiometer that soon or latter wear out and present spikes. In pitch/roll (X,Y) is used contactless sensor - HALL sensor, same of Warthog stick, so theoretically will last more than all other stick parts.

 

Don't exist miracles using cheap parts.

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Sokol1

[Mugwump]

6 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

You can buy only T.16000M and use with X-55 throttle that provide you some rotaries.

 

TWCS throttle has 4 extra axes in 1 rotarie and  3  in paddle and mini-stick  - but these 3 almost useless  for WWII planes because have spring that keep axex in center.

That was my plan but the store here only has the HOTAS kit with or without pedals.  I think I'll pick it up and use the X55 throttle for Il-2 and try the Thrustmaster throttle for Elite and DCS.

[Seb71]

Since you already have two throttles, maybe you should look at WarBRD + Delta grip (it has the twist you want) instead of T.16000M + TWCS. Or wait for the VKB Kosmosima grip (+ Gunfighter base).

[Sokol1]

Depends where you are X-plane.org store has VKB Gladiator "vanilla" available, a good alternative for stick only, at reasonable cost ($99), their "twist rudder" use contactless sensor - is the only stick with this feature actually.

[SCG_ErwinP]

On 10/23/2018 at 3:44 PM, Sokol1 said:

Don't exist miracles using cheap parts.

It haven't one year since it was bought. Work for one year isn't a miracles, not working for a year is making the sucker's customer.

[BladeMeister]

On 10/23/2018 at 2:44 PM, Sokol1 said:

 

This is normal and expected, T.16000M is a "entry-level" joystick (low cost) and in secondary axes industry use low cost/quality potentiometer that soon or latter wear out and present spikes. In pitch/roll (X,Y) is used contactless sensor - HALL sensor, same of Warthog stick, so theoretically will last more than all other stick parts.

 

Don't exist miracles using cheap parts.

 

 

 

Oooops. Sorry Sokol1, we agree, this is a good option for low cost better performance. i didn't read your whole post. Sorry

 

This is not true. The T16000m has Hall effect sensors for the stick. The rest of the stick is pretty cheesy but it works and is probably one of the most accurate(stick wise) low cost sticks out there. I have been using one for 5 years and she still works perfect. I have heard the T16000m has the same Hall effect sensors as the Warthog, but I do not know if this is true or not. Supposedly you can use the Thrustmaster Software(Target) with it, but I have never tried it.The problem is you cannot find them anymore, or I would buy a back up. Please post if you know where to get them.

 

S!Blade<><

 

Edit: I just found one on New Egg for 59.99$ and I am ordering for a back up. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIADYY76K7174&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC-_-pla-_-PC+Gaming+Accessories+(Joystick+-+Game+Pad+-+etc.)-_-9SIADYY76K7174&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqKOPtLSg3gIVwcDICh1LiQsZEAYYAyABEgIBBfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Edited October 26, 2018 by BladeMeister

[-FISTN-Ugly_Eric]

On 10/23/2018 at 10:10 PM, Mugwump said:

That was my plan but the store here only has the HOTAS kit with or without pedals.  I think I'll pick it up and use the X55 throttle for Il-2 and try the Thrustmaster throttle for Elite and DCS.

There is nothing stopping you from using the rotaries on one throttle to manage engine and use the other throttle for throttle. Or use them both as a multiengine throttle.

[Sokol1]

 

15 hours ago, BladeMeister said:

Quote

Sokol1

This is normal and expected, T.16000M is a "entry-level" joystick (low cost) and in secondary axes industry use low cost/quality potentiometer that soon or latter wear out and present spikes. In pitch/roll (X,Y) is used contactless sensor - HALL sensor, same of Warthog stick, so theoretically will last more than all other stick parts.

 

Quote

 

This is not true. The T16000m has Hall effect sensors for the stick. The rest of the stick is pretty cheesy but it works and is probably one of the most accurate(stick wise) low cost sticks out there. I have been using one for 5 years and she still works perfect. I have heard the T16000m has the same Hall effect sensors as the Warthog, but I do not know if this is true or not. Supposedly you can use the Thrustmaster Software(Target) with it, but I have never tried it.The problem is you cannot find them anymore, or I would buy a back up. Please post if you know where to get them.

 

 

 

What part I say that is not true?

 

"In pitch/roll (X,Y) is used contactless sensor - HALL sensor, same of Warthog stick."

 

This sensor - used in T.16000M, Warhog, X-55, X-56 picth and roll axes ONLY:

 

 

 https://www.melexis.com/en/product/MLX90333/Triaxis-Absolute-3D-Joystick-Position-Sensor

 

 

"in secondary axes industry use low cost/quality potentiometer"

 

Secondary axes: twist rudder (yaw) and throttle (slider), this potentiometer:

 

 

This kind of potentiometer cost $0.X per unit in batches for industry, in China market. Low cost don't combine with quality/durability. Is just OK for an "entry-level" product.

 

Don't trust in that  "reviews" that don't look inside joysticks for see what parts are used there, neither in manufacturer marketing, e.g. Warthog HOTAS is advertised as "all HALL sensor", but their slider axis - that wheel with small lever labeled "friction" at right of throttle grip, a "secondary axis" use similar potentiometer.

 

FYI - I have a disassembled T.16000M there.

 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Sokol1

[BladeMeister]

What you said is true. I use the stick and buttons only. I have a separate throttle and pedals. The T16000m is a good low price stick for flight sims 

 

S!Blade<><

[Mugwump]

23 hours ago, Ugly_Eric said:

There is nothing stopping you from using the rotaries on one throttle to manage engine and use the other throttle for throttle. Or use them both as a multiengine throttle.

 

You haven't witnessed how technically inept and generally lazy I am when it comes to mapping my controls and trying to figure out how to use things like SST or TARGET to program stuff. 

[III/JG52_Al-Azraq]

I have one and it has performed well for almost two years but now I had it replace for anew unit (thanks to the Amazon's amazing customer service) because the TWCS was giving some trouble. The issue was that at certain throttle levels, when pushing a button, it detected like I was pressing all the buttons at once so imagine that mess when diving into an enemy and activating all kinds of stuff at once. However, other friends have it, and no problems at all.

 

The new unit is perfect though, but I am thinking about getting a Virpil set and thrustmaster's rudder pedals. Total cost would be around 700 € but given the amount of hours I spend flying, I think it is worth it.

[Sokol1]

7 hours ago, III/JG52_Al-Azraq said:

 The issue was that at certain throttle levels, when pushing a button, it detected like I was pressing all the buttons at once so imagine that mess when diving into an enemy and activating all kinds of stuff at once.

 

Probable, like X-55 the wires of the cable that goes for throttle grip buttons start broken internally due constant back and forth movements. Today's common "planned obsolescence".

Edited October 26, 2018 by Sokol1

[Mugwump]

My X-55 still runs fine but I could never get programming to work.  Whenever I started the software, the testing options would be greyed out and I'd see a message in the lower right saying "drivers not installed".  I looked into it and apparently it is an issue with the drivers not having a proper signature and Windows refusing to recognize them.  I read somewhere that I could download a program that would create an exemption for them but I couldn't be bothered as the stick and throttle work fine otherwise.

[NiiranenVR]

I have had many problems with x55  

I don't use the stick - the stick is ok but the software is really bad and I had to sync it very often ..... And then suddenly no software to open ...

Now only use the throttle , and a Mffb 

I did everything - also write with saitek support but only help is to install win 10 as new 

I did it now 3-4 times , and the software is ok 14-30 days , then suddenly gone 

 

It works without the software , and let see if it keep the special keybind to zoom , when it's maybe go again 

 

( Just see it's x56 I have , but maybe same software/problem ) 

Edited October 27, 2018 by Sire

[Alonzo]

One thing I didn't like about my T16000 stick is that the spring is quite heavy, and it snaps to centre quite hard. The sensors are accurate but the hard centering behavior makes it more difficult to make fine adjustments around the zero point. You can do a "spring mod" (google it) to take the thing apart and apply zip ties to compress the spring and reduce tension, but it's a pain and on my stick wasn't a 100% perfect solution.

 

All that said, in the non-Virpil, non-VKB stick selection world, T16000 is pretty good. As someone else said though, do at least look at the Virpil WarBRD stick. It's expensive but very good engineering. I have two Virpil sticks (left and right handed) and they are 10/10 amazing.

[Sokol1]

7 hours ago, Sire said:

 x55 ...I did it now 3-4 times , and the software is ok 14-30 days , then suddenly gone 

 

Is not because an stick came with a software bundle that one have to use this software, the only thing obligatory to install is drivers for Windows.

 

For keyboard emulation, one that don't live without the  "dumb (IMO) press joystick buttons for press keyboard keys for trigger command in games",are alternatives, that maybe don't are able to make "fancy cheats" - e.g. create trim for planes that don't have (e.g.Bf 109 aileron trim), like manufacturer software, but are "bullet proof", e.g. JoyToKey.

[NiiranenVR]

Yeah , thats right ... Or gremlin I use allso .... 

But with the stick you have to have the software for calibrate ? .... I tried many ways ,also in win10 and manager and so on ....but no way , only through software ... So when it's gone no stick .... 

But never mind , now I use the mffb2 

 

I have the t16000 also  and never had problem ..... Put it in and it's working 

[Mugwump]

Got the T16000M.  I really miss the FFB effects from my Sidewinder even though they only load about 30% of the time in IL-2.  The stick seems alright and quite precise (except around the very centre due to spring tension) but I'm not used to it.  I find the range of motion on the T16000M is much larger than that of the Sidewinder so my inputs have to be much coarser and it's taking some getting used to, especially the rudder twist in the handle.  15 years on a Sidewinder almost exclusively has ingrained the muscle memory pretty deeply.