A Thought on Pricing

[[TWB]Sauerkraut-]

I've just started thinking about Il2 BoX's pricing scheme, and there is a bit of a conundrum here. Let me explain:

 

Every single Il2 BoX expansion costs the same amount, when discounting the premium for pre-purchase or purchasing into early access. However, the amount of content that you actually receive for each purchase is not the same.

When you first purchase any of the Il2 products, you are not only paying for the vehicles and map included in that set, you are also paying for the ENTIRE CLIENT. From that point forward, every time you purchase a new product, all you are paying for are the vehicles and map that are included in that product. You are not paying for an entirely new game, since all of the products use the same client. Despite this, you are paying the same price for an addon as you are for the ENTIRE CLIENT. You see what I'm getting at here?

 

Of course, you could defeat this one with a bit of semantics sure. You could reason that when you make the first purchase, you are simply paying for the vehicles and map, and that you are just given the client for free. I'm not saying that the way things are currently set up is wrong, or bad, or that it needs to be changed. I'm simply writing about something I thought was peculiar because I want to know that other people think about it.

[Jade_Monkey]

A few thoughts, in no particular order:

• Would you be only entitled to the DX9 version of BOS if you bought before the upgrade? After all that's the content and platform what you paid for.
• Who is paying for the updates they add to the platform? (e.g. new exhaust effects, better dispersion, etc) Are you entitled to lifetime upgrades by paying once?
• Saying that everyone else's arguments are just "semantics" but yours isn't ? how does that work?

[Gambit21]

He really is that guy.

[Olt_Kloetenburg]

First: Great avatar! I'll remember you!

 

I feel the same, kind of.

Nursing myself with the thought that it's an investment in future development. But then again I have to pay another 50+ bucks on that, regardless of how many BoXs I've bought before...

The Bf-109G6 is the peak in my opinion. Not only was this becoming the standard Luftwaffe fighter in the BOK timeframe and every german ace flew it so that it should be included in the base package...

Much more the fact that those 20 bucks literally only add two bulges and heavier machine guns on the G4's nose makes me feel a little duped. I don't want to discredit the developers as I enjoy their work on a daily basis! But this one actually started some doubts in me.

 

Fact is: I am willing to spend a decent amount on my hobby when it's justified and I don't feel parsimonious at all doing this. 

BUT when it comes to the point that I see myself being fooled while going that path... well, right now I force myself to just wait for a sale to come up.

[Rjel]

Touche' Jade_Monkey.

[[TWB]Sauerkraut-]

1 hour ago, Jade_Monkey said:

A few thoughts, in no particular order:

• Would you be only entitled to the DX9 version of BOS if you bought before the upgrade? After all that's the content and platform what you paid for.
• Who is paying for the updates they add to the platform? (e.g. new exhaust effects, better dispersion, etc) Are you entitled to lifetime upgrades by paying once?
• Saying that everyone else's arguments are just "semantics" but yours isn't ? how does that work?

 

Good points, and I suppose this is my fault for not being clear about this in my original post.

This ENTIRE thing is semantics. In the end this whole discussion is pointless and really meaningless. My post was just me having an offhand thought and wanting to see what other people thought about it.

[Gambit21]

2 hours ago, itsthatguy said:

 

 In the end this whole discussion is pointless and really meaningless.

 

Yep

I deleted the part about semantics...because who cares really.

[dburne]

I guess I just think differently myself.

There is a ton of work that goes into each release, not to mention all the updates that get applied across the board to all during the course of a year.

 

Considering all the time I spend in IL-2 Great Battles, it is a fantastic bang for the buck for me.

Now don't get me started though on all the PC gear and peripherals, whole nother story LOL.

[R3animate]

They're not expansions, they're standalone titles. They simply combine together if you own multiple..

 

By the same logic, do you think games that use the same engine (Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, IWD2, BG2) should be considered expansions and cost less?

[357th_Dog]

20 minutes ago, R3animate said:

They're not expansions, they're standalone titles. They simply combine together if you own multiple..

 

 

Bingo 

[No.332.Animal_NO]

Check out DCS's pricing strategies and come back here after.

[pegg00]

You must hate DCS then. And tbh I dont blame you.

[No.332.Animal_NO]

Not really, and considering that devs spend a year+ on each DCS module there sort of justifies their prices. Personally, I wait until they are on sale before jumping on. The other game (War Thunder, ahem) is perhaps the most evil when it comes to playing costs with their pay to play philosophy and inferior product. As for IL2-Great Battles, I don't think it's expensive at all considering what you get:

- Full planesets for each module

- Active development

- Developers interact with the forum

- Upgrades to engine

and of course, the best and most balanced air combat experience online today.

 

I'm not made of money, but I've always pre-purchased the BoX modules because I want this game to LIVE. And considering the amount of hours played, the cost of this hobby is far less than most other hobbies I have.

[Talon_]

Regarding pricing, I think there's a lot to be said for a free version of the game with 1 Stalingrad fighter and 1 Moscow attacker per side, to give people a chance to taste the game before committing to the "enthusiast" level price. A Lagg-3, F4, IL-2 and a Stuka for instance.

[CountZero]

they had 66% off sail on bom and bos not so long ago, thats 17$ for 8planes, once or two times a year sail like that for older dlcs is best way to go, i got bom then and probably would not buy it if it was just on regular 49$, im waiting for BoK to start to get on thouse sails in 40%+ discounts atleast before buying that. 

 

for me its if i realy need to play that now or i can wait, if they have collectors airplane like Spitfire XIV, Yak3 la7, tu-2, ar234... some uber airplane ill get it on full price of 20-25$, if they have something like po2 ju52, hurricane, i 153, c47... ill not get it untill is 4$

 

same is with dlc if its BoBp i see reasons to pay 70 for it, if its some spanish civil war ill get it at 5$, so what area they select and airplanes they do its important as the price they put on it, they go for battle of france or normandy i wait for it to be 10$, they go for PTO i get it when lanched and so on

Edited October 21, 2018 by 77.CountZero

[ZachariasX]

I think they could ask for more. But just me saying. I just spent 69.99 on the DCS F-14 (after not even remotely mastering its systems) that is supposed to come out in winter (of an unspecified year). Sob Logic‘s JET cost as much in 1981. Man, we are spoiled.

[Ehret]

14 hours ago, itsthatguy said:

When you first purchase any of the Il2 products, you are not only paying for the vehicles and map included in that set, you are also paying for the ENTIRE CLIENT. From that point forward, every time you purchase a new product, all you are paying for are the vehicles and map that are included in that product. You are not paying for an entirely new game, since all of the products use the same client. Despite this, you are paying the same price for an addon as you are for the ENTIRE CLIENT. You see what I'm getting at here?

 

Yes and you are making a mistake by confusing a software license with something tangible which it is not. Basically, by buying software one gets just rights to use that software within the license's terms. How and in what form it's delivered doesn't matter; we don't own software as customers - only rights to use it. By buying the BoS you are getting rights to play BoS and nothing more even if all of BoX resides in a single directory.

[Rjel]

2 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

I think they could ask for more. But just me saying. I just spent 69.99 on the DCS F-14 (after not even remotely mastering its systems) that is supposed to come out in winter (of an unspecified year). Sob Logic‘s JET cost as much in 1981. Man, we are spoiled.

The sticker price on the box from a game from 20-30 years ago might match a BoX price point but factor in inflation and BoX is an absolute bargain in comparison. Truth be told, if most of us fly as much as we claim, the price per hours played in this series would be pennies a day.

[Garven]

3 hours ago, Talon_ said:

Regarding pricing, I think there's a lot to be said for a free version of the game with 1 Stalingrad fighter and 1 Moscow attacker per side, to give people a chance to taste the game before committing to the "enthusiast" level price. A Lagg-3, F4, IL-2 and a Stuka for instance.

If they go that route I really hope a free demo doesn't allow access to multiplayer.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Garven_Dreis

[SCG_motoadve]

 

They deserve every penny they make , you want attention to detail? free updates to FM, terrain , graphics, effects etc? they even bother with weekly development diaries to keep you posted on what is coming.

 

Il2 Great Battles ,best bang for the buck for ever!

[Lusekofte]

I always though this game and all its add ons and patches is cheap. Quality is best there is . I understand there is a roof on prices taking world wide economics into it. 

I am not agreeing with the level of simulation they placed this game on, nor the direction . But I do understand why they do it. 

They cannot please all, but they have pleased most people.

I am impressed by the amount of improvement you get on each patch they release . 

[DD_Arthur]

25 minutes ago, Garven_Dreis said:

If they go that route I really hope a free demo doesn't allow access to multiplayer.

 

A BIG +1 to that.

[Talon_]

28 minutes ago, Garven_Dreis said:

If they go that route I really hope a free demo doesn't allow access to multiplayer.

 

Why not a single server for them?

[[120DIS]KathoriasTV]

34 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

A BIG +1 to that.

 +2.

 

Actually, screw the whole idea. Don't want the kind of playerbase that the word "free" attracts. They can stick to Fortnite. Gatekeeping is a useful tool to prevent hobbies from being destroyed by outsiders that don't care about the long-term health or viability and simply want something to consume. Because said outsiders vastly outnumber hobbyists, they manage to turn 'gatekeeping' into a dirty word, when it isn't. 

 

BoS and BoM were, what, $17 last sale, 66% off? That's already exceedingly generous. I question the motives and commitment of someone who doesn't even want to pay that. 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

+1 for an offline single player demo. Four planes and single small map is perfect. Put out a free disk in one of the trade mags like days of old. Some of us from the first days have been calling for this.

 

Outside of that, the pricing is right in the wheelhouse for the amount of content we get. They could charge more for all of the enthusiasts and we’d pay it for the most part. The reason they don’t is because they are appealing to guys who aren’t knee deep into combat flight simming yet and they are broadening the player base.

Edited October 21, 2018 by II/JG17_HerrMurf
Respond to OP

[CanadaOne]

My views on pricing haven't changed since day one: A premium price for a premium game.

 

Aside from one aspect I am forbidden to mention, lest there be a stamping of tiny petulant little feet, this is flat out the best WWII flightsim ever.

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, CanadaOne said:

Aside from one aspect I am forbidden to mention, lest there be a stamping of tiny petulant little feet,

 

Oh sure, project your little problem onto us why don't you.

 

 

[EAF19_Marsh]

I think it is very economically priced. You get the new map, new aircraft, new features / tweeks that also backwards-update the earlier modules. As time is money, the earlier buyers get the time advantage of play but pay a higher premium - thus it has always been.

 

In such a niche market the team needs a margin for future work and frankly I am astonished that they are so generous. I don't want to lecture anyone, but $80 for BoK premium is ONE DCS aircraft, a meal for 2 at most mid-level city restaurants or a cheap one-way flight in Europe. Hell, when I was in London that could be a round of drinks for your work team*.

 

I remain a little astonished that it is so low cost.

 

*Except if you went to a Walkabout, but really who needs that?

 

 

[[TWB]Sauerkraut-]

11 hours ago, pegg00 said:

You must hate DCS then. And tbh I dont blame you.

 

A lot of you seem to think I'm complaining about the prices, or that I think they are too high. I'm not. Once again, I'm simply pointing out a peculiarity that I had an offhand thought about last night.

I agree that the prices charged are more than justified, and I want to support the devs as much as I can. I agree that this is the best WWII sim and that the price is justified.

 

On the note of DCS, I think their pricing structure, and the prices themselves, are fine. If anything, it makes a bit more sense that BoX's does, at least to me.

6 hours ago, Ehret said:

 

Yes and you are making a mistake by confusing a software license with something tangible which it is not. Basically, by buying software one gets just rights to use that software within the license's terms. How and in what form it's delivered doesn't matter; we don't own software as customers - only rights to use it. By buying the BoS you are getting rights to play BoS and nothing more even if all of BoX resides in a single directory.

 

I understand how software licensing works. The point here is that if you buy 4 BoX titiles, you are not only paying for the content that they comprise of. You are also paying for the license to use their client 4 times over.

 

ONCE AGAIN, I'm NOT complaining about the pricing.

Edited October 21, 2018 by itsthatguy

[LuftManu]

I think the price is correct and the pricing model too. Every expansion can be used standalone and every bit of content is worth the price, being supported with the Career, Free MP maps and multicrew planes. Heck, you can even edit missions on maps you don't have.

 

I don't get your point. You want a free base? That could work as a demo and I agree

You want Il-2 to sell their base so when you buy one or more expansions, you get them cheaper once you get the base? 

 

In my opinion Il-2 has the best model right now. You can decide wich version you want to buy and  later get the collectors aircraft. You can get bonus aircraft too if you have any of the expansions. You can get discounts at multiple sales they make. You can get a development product while on discount whereas other companies make you pay the discounted price blind, without seeing content from it and you won't get bamboozled with unfinished pieces of garbage. Surely a jewel in a world plagued with DLC and microtransations, and old fashion expansion concept that should be the norm today.

 

I think the demo version would be feasible and a great entry point. For the other things, You pay for a game and you get a full game in Il-2.

Edited October 21, 2018 by LF_ManuV

[sonicapollo]

I picked up most of my stuff on the big sales. However, bok and bobp were pre orders. The sales remain the best way to cleanup. I like contributing to the team.  However, I think bos and bom could be combined with their respective collector aircraft and scripted campaigns and repriced at the standard price. I feel this would make it easier to get people in the door to generate future sales. 

[Nic727]

Hi,

 

Just want to jump in, because I know where OP want to go because he is comparing to other AAA games out there, but Il2 is a very particular game.

 

1. The team is really small

2. They are updating the game for free (graphic update, features update, fixes, etc.)

3. They are creating new very big maps, new planes, etc. It takes a lot of research from historians, books, etc. to know the maps and the physics of new planes.

4. They are not selling millions of copy of the game like AAA, so they need every $ they can to live and buy new tools for development.

 

I know your topic was about why are we paying a full release game each time instead of a king of DLC price? It's about the work they put into that.

 

Thank you

[E_Davjack]

9 hours ago, itsthatguy said:

I understand how software licensing works. The point here is that if you buy 4 BoX titiles, you are not only paying for the content that they comprise of. You are also paying for the license to use their client 4 times over.

 

ONCE AGAIN, I'm NOT complaining about the pricing.

 

You may not be complaining about the overall pricing, but it still is a negative way to think about it.  I prefer to think that, since the game isn't a game without the client, the client is free and we are paying for the content.  A positive way to think about it is that the 1CGs is giving us a choice on how we enter the game.  I didn't buy BoS, I bought BoK, and either way I get the play the game online if the server has those planes available. 

 

In the future, BoBP players will be able to buy both the client and those planes, but they won't be able to play on Eastern Front MP maps unless the servers owners add late war German stuff to their scenarios.  But that's okay if all you want to play is Western Front.  You get the choice to spend $50 on BoBP planeset, and get the client, without having to spend more on Eastern Front stuff you don't want. 

 

The alternative is a literally free client with 2 planes, like DCS or RoF, and then paying the exact same amount of money for the planesets ($50 per module, because that's what it is worth).  In that case, unless you only want a free game with only two fighters, your personal experience of buying the game would be no different.  You choose 1 (or all) of the planesets to buy and you play the game.  You spend the same amount of money, it's just that when you spend it, you already have the client downloaded, instead of downloading after you spend. 

 

There is no problem, not even really anything worth discussing.  It's all in your mind.  

 

EDIT: Heh, if anything you are arguing that the game needs to cost more, because the client should be separated out as a value in and of itself rather than being the basic necessity for using the planes.  We do not get the client 4x.  We get the client, period. 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by II./JG1_EmerlistDavjack

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

If there is anything that is overpriced, it is the standalone collector planes.  That's about it though.

[E_Davjack]

Relatively, yes, and it sucks that some really good planes are hidden behind that wall (LA-5s, 109G6).  Others, though, are just bonuses, like the Macchi or the HS-129.  Hell, even when the PO2 comes out, I will get why it is a niche part of the game.  Not as much incentive to make the weirder stuff if you can't charge a bit more for it.  JU-52 was their first 3 engine plane, so I get why it costs $5 more.  Otherwise, we could just not have it.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Yes, I meant relatively as well.

[Feathered_IV]

20 hours ago, Garven_Dreis said:

If they go that route I really hope a free demo doesn't allow access to multiplayer.

 

No that would be fine.  As long as the only aircraft they can use is the Il-2.

If they gave demo users the 109 however, that would be pure stupidity.

[Alonzo]

21 hours ago, [120DIS]KathoriasTV said:

Actually, screw the whole idea. Don't want the kind of playerbase that the word "free" attracts. They can stick to Fortnite. Gatekeeping is a useful tool to prevent hobbies from being destroyed by outsiders that don't care about the long-term health or viability and simply want something to consume. Because said outsiders vastly outnumber hobbyists, they manage to turn 'gatekeeping' into a dirty word, when it isn't. 

 

BoS and BoM were, what, $17 last sale, 66% off? That's already exceedingly generous. I question the motives and commitment of someone who doesn't even want to pay that. 

 

I only play one game at a time. I played WoW for 12+ years, then Elite Dangerous was my thing. I throw money at gaming, especially through hardware, and I think I ended up buying IL2 when it was super cheap on Steam Sale. I then didn't play it for months and finally picked it up when I was sick of Elite. I found an amazing game and community and have since thrown $200 at the developers in a span of six weeks or so. 

 

BUT. Making blanket statements about not wanting a limited demo out there is very shortsighted. Let's be clear - a couple of planes, a couple of missions, MP restrictions = limited demo. DCS and Elite both have free demos. WT is f2p garbage but again has a free demo. The point of the demo is for people to be able to 'feel' the difference between (say) WT's models-on-rails play and IL2's actual flight model. To be able to feel the poorly optimized DCS VR modes vs IL2's actually-playable VR. Elite Dangerous has a free demo, which if you've never played it you should -- VR combat in an asteroid field is amazing. If we're trying to promote the game, and we think it's a good game, there's no harm in having an extremely limited free demo mode.

 

As for MP, you could give server operators the option to allow or deny demo accounts. Default to deny. I suspect most MP servers would keep demo users away, but a few (like the excellent training servers that are floating around) might allow them.

[Guest deleted@134347]

1 hour ago, Alonzo_ said:

BUT. Making blanket statements about not wanting a limited demo out there is very shortsighted.
 

 

i don't think the devs and Jason underestimate this fact. However, I do believe creating a demo for the Il2 ecosystem is an undertaking in its own right. First of all it must be 'update-able & unhackable" in the sense that you can't open it up to a full client duping the system. That means the core engine, the 'kernel' if you will, must be limited and not containing a lot of modules that make up the full client. To create a thing like that is another parallel work stream, which will end up living its own life consuming resources. To make it happen one must go thru a cost&benefit marketing and trending analysis to realize the true potential behind it. That takes time and resources. The point is I understand why we don't have this right now. Obviously, it doesn't mean it's impossible.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

9 hours ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

If there is anything that is overpriced, it is the standalone collector planes.  That's about it though.

 

Ha, no. DCS much?