BoBP: Knife fight in dark phone booth while driving Ferrari's.

[Gambit21]

Davjak grow up.

When/if you’re ready to have an adult conversation, and can parse a post properly you know where to find me.

[Ehret]

9 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

This can be a server side issue, where server preforms the "visibility" check in a manner that allows the contact to go beyond the bubble before the check is preformed again.

 

The net protocol and net-code could be also at play here. Extending the visibility bubble would increase network traffic and we already have the user limit (84) set because of issues. So, it's entirely possible but lots of testing and changes would be needed. The developers have other major priorities now. Eventually they will address the issue; the network code was modified lately, already.

[ZachariasX]

2 hours ago, II./JG1_EmerlistDavjack said:

In my experience, 25km / 15 miles is completely reasonable for the average pilot to spot a moving single-engine aircraft against the sky in clear weather, even without taking glint/reflection into account. 

In my experience, it feels more like 500 meters as far as *spotting* goes. Seeing is different. But you have to spot first in order to see.

[Sunde]

8 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

In my experience, it feels more like 500 meters as far as *spotting* goes. Seeing is different. But you have to spot first in order to see.

500 meters? wow lol ?

[ZachariasX]

52 minutes ago, Miller1 said:

500 meters? wow lol ?

It was funny if it wasn that darn scary if people wouldn‘t be crossing each others flight path like that. I never count on the other seeing me. Also, when just flying your course, your wing (if you have it high as in a Cessna or in a biplane) blankets out a big portion of the sky. Bad feeling whe you suddenly see one appearing from behind your wing, close enough that you can see inside hus cockpit. Planes that will run into you will keep constant bearing. If they are behind the wing, that‘s where they stay until the make it through your wing. The one that will run into you is the hardest to spot. Seeing things, that you can do as far as the moon or the stars. For good spotting you need to do more than that. Flying a biplane also has the effect of being a „point of interest“ in the sky, and suddenly you have skmething fast and modern creeping up from your 6. And I can tell you, if you have the seatbelts fastened for aerobatics, it is very tedious to monitor your 6. But at least you can be fairly sure then that the other sees you.

 

If you can reliably spot over 3, 4 kilometers, you are way above average I‘d say. It is almost as people give it little importance.

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

22 hours ago, Miller1 said:

10/10 

The view bubble is hillarious and anyone with the right settings and decent eyesight should notice this. Nothing is more amusing than approaching an action area, where your buddies are calling out contacts on coms but you are still 11kms out so you cant see jack shit. The second you then enter that "bubble", the area suddenly filles with smoketrails, tracers and aircraft.

Its stunning how many of you dont see this as an issue. 
   But then again, a huge portion of the people i see online cant even spot a contact that is within 1km of themselves. 

Worse for me is seeing a ship or train just poof in front of you.  I'd get it if I was a stuka pilot in a Norwegian fjord but the seas arround kuban are pretty clear to me.

[Sgt_Joch]

two issues here, "real life" spotting and what to do with the "game".

 

There have been several studies on how pilot spot other airplanes. The issue is not visual acuity, but how the brain interprets the data.

 

Bottom line, an average WW2 pilot scanning the sky 360 degrees would spot a fighter size airplane on average somewhere between 3-5 kilometer max.. That has to do with the fact that when you are just scanning, you do not necessarily "see" everything, your brain picks and chooses data. Plus, when just looking out at the sky, your eyes tend to focus just a few feet ahead of you even though you may think you are focusing miles away.

 

Now, it is possible to "spot" an airplane very far away, say 20-25 km, but that is when you are focusing your eyes on a specific spot for some time, long enough for your brain to interpret what you are seeing. For example, you are 20 km from a city, you see flak exploding over it, you think there might be aircraft, you focus on that area and then yes, you may be able to spot the ACs being targeted by the flak.

 

so yes, the current 10 km limit is fine for the "just scanning around" part. The problem is how to model the special 25 km case? Being able to spot everything at 25 km all the time would be as unrealistic as the current not being able to spot anything over 10 km. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Sgt_Joch

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Planes are not the problem for me and I would quite like to meet these bionic eyed people that can spot these targets at and over 10k in game.

 

 It is targets like factories and ships that would defo be visible all of the way to to horizion poping in at 10km. It makes the last 30 seconds of level bombing very interesting for sure.

Edited October 16, 2018 by AeroAce

[E_Davjack]

13 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

In my experience, it feels more like 500 meters as far as *spotting* goes. Seeing is different. But you have to spot first in order to see.

 

Heh, I see what you are saying.  I was, of course, talking about the distance to See the target.  Usually when ATC called it out.  

 

As for Spotting,  that's an Operational problem, not a Physical problem.  Ideally the game would replicate the physical conditions correctly, and the pilots do the best with em that they can.  Unfortunately some will also have better monitor setups.   If that's one of the arguments for capping everybody at a certain distance, I guess I can see where that is coming from. 

[ZachariasX]

2 minutes ago, II./JG1_EmerlistDavjack said:

 

Heh, I see what you are saying.  I was, of course, talking about the distance to See the target.  Usually when ATC called it out.  

 

As for Spotting,  that's an Operational problem, not a Physical problem.  Ideally the game would replicate the physical conditions correctly, and the pilots do the best with em that they can.  Unfortunately some will also have better monitor setups.   If that's one of the arguments for capping everybody at a certain distance, I guess I can see where that is coming from. 

I think 10 kilometers is already good for a pilot (that in contrary to my average real world expercience) for starters. It had been discussed over and over that easy to see things like contrails would need farther distances. Up there, the air is dry enough to be able to see very far.

 

The big show stopper is really this as AetoAce said above, when you can‘t see big bombing targets when you not only dan do so, but must do so.

 

But eventually draw fistance should be a function of object size and humidity layers (transparency of the air) that are in between. I don‘t think draw of an object should handicap for real world spoting abilities. In my example, it is probably mostly due to people not feeling like looking out their windows too much. But if I want to be looking out (in the game), I shouldn‘t be handicapped by a factor derived from peeps prefering to watch their mobile phones than looking out.

 

 

[E4GLEyE]

smokes, tracers, "big" planes should have a bit higher draw distance... I know it can be a system hog, but it is so nice to spot targets 20+ miles away in the other sim with jets... Tho as the speeds are slower here, I dont mind it that badly, as I mind the buildings not rendering as someone mentioned it before me... bombing from high alt and looking forward, the only way to see a city, is to see that in the grass, there are grey areas that resemble city formations, but are still flat, and have no "objects" on them... 

[Gambit21]

FWIW I made test missions with marker icons, and static cameras placed at set distances. I did this some time ago.

 

If I recall correctly I was getting “out” draw distances on my 4K monitor at over twice what some of you are experiencing.

 

I’ll try and find my notes later.

 

[[CPT]milopugdog]

3 hours ago, AeroAce said:

Planes are not the problem for me and I would quite like to meet these bionic eyed people that can spot these targets at and over 10k in game.

 

 It is targets like factories and ships that would defo be visible all of the way to to horizion poping in at 10km. It makes the last 30 seconds of level bombing very interesting for sure.

Very much so agree on that one. I would fly bombers a whole lot more if I could climb more than 3500m to get a decent bomb run off.

 

Can't remember how many times I've been shot down on a go around over the target because I couldn't see them until it was time to drop.

[Gambit21]

OK - found my notes.

Here are the results from my testing.

 

First, I can spot aircraft, and they ARE rendered up to 18k, even 20k on my 4K monitor.

I used an external camera operator for these tests. The aircraft and camera were placed at a known  distance, and verified with the measure tool.

I also used land marks on the map.

 

Once acquired by the camera, I can pull that camera out to 10k, 12k, 15k, 18k, 20k, and I can still see the Ju-52 and the 109 I used for the test.

 

If I switch to the aircraft externals, or to another camera, then back to that original camera, they are no longer present even though I could see them before switching.

If I stay with that camera, I can keep on pulling back to a crazy distance, so far that with the naked eye they're barely visible. In fact so far away and small that I"d never see them if I didn't know where to look. The 109 is a single 4K pixel, the Ju-52 maybe 3.

 

So this tells me there's more to this issue than a simple render distance limitation, which in fact might not at all be what most of you think.

[E_Davjack]

You may have tried this, but once you acquired the target at 10km, then pulled the camera back to 15-20k, and still saw the dots, did you turn the camera so that the planes left your field of view and then tried to re-acquire them? The swapping camera thing makes me think of how smoke had to load back in if you look away from it and then back.

 

Maybe once you acquire the aircraft within the 10km limit, it persists as long as you are looking at it? 

[Gambit21]

Good question, and I can’t remember if I panned away or not.

 

Pretty sure I did (pulling back, looking down to spot a road intersection/land mark etc) then referencing/measuring on the map in the editor if I remember correctly. It’s been a while.

[E_Davjack]

Apologies for being daft at you yesterday. I have a major peeve about people excusing bad mechanics for whatever reason, which you weren't doing.  Kneejerk reaction, emphasis on jerk.

 

I don't have the time right now to learn the editor, and since you have the mission created and all that, could you add yourself in as an aircraft at 9km away from those planes, then fly away as you look at them from the cockpit and see if they stay visible for a good while (until out of range), then look forward, look back at where they are?  I believe your test, I would be very interested to know if being in the cockpit matters, and I think that this test will prove a very important thing:  If we encounter an aircraft at the edge of the 10km range, see it, and we we separate beyond that range, and look away for a split second, will the game force us to lose them until we close back to within 10km? 

 

Because in a real situation, as Zach is saying, spotting is the hard part.  If you need to glance back at your instruments for a second, you don't suddenly forget where the other plane is at such far distances. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by II./JG1_EmerlistDavjack

[Gambit21]

No worries...I don't hold grudges...not even against BSR who makes a career of it.

 

I just found the "render distance test" mission, I'll run it soon and let you know.

Might be tomorrow.

[BraveSirRobin]

lol

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I see the argument for the render view and time to react if we are BOTH flying 262s at max speed (your calculation did not take into effect that the piston aircraft the 262 would be against would  be flying slower( by at least 100kph)). And that is a hard integration problem because the distance the prop plane would cover will be less than the 262, meaning there would be more time to spot as the the 262 will fly further than half of 5000m and the prop will fly less than 5000m before the merge. 

 

Check your math!!!

 

But for real it does only gives about 7-10 more seconds to your, they meet at half ways estimate! 

 

I think IRL you will not see these planes at these speeds even in a head to head, until it is very late. 10km is fine and making it to 15km or maybe 20km aint gona help you unless you have a bionic eye. 

On 10/15/2018 at 3:01 AM, Cpt_Siddy said:

Ok, lets get this "view distance" whine #1231243 out of the way.

 

Lets start with the elephant in the room, the 262. This thing turns like a tick in a tar, while going at ludicrous speeds of 700kmh +. 

The p-51 and P-47? Full manifold pressure at ~11km, and can do respectable 600kmh+- at that.

190 D-9 is in same boat as the above.

 

Kmh to m/s of top speeds:

600kmh = 166m/s  

700kmh = 194m/s

800kmh = 222m/s

 

See the trend?

 

Imagine your average situation in current meta, 109 G2 at 7km Vs ...something from VVS that can fly high up (?).  Average speeds under 600kmh for both, going head on, you got roughly 30s to 35s from entering in to view range to passing. In that time you need to spot, identify and engage or run. 

 

In BoBP, this time shrinks to 25 seconds, or under, with above scenario. (25s is the average time you will travel 5000m) 

 

Arguably, while the low altitude combat and the dynamics involved in that don't suffer from 10km range, the high altitude combat will be a mess. Altitude combat will be more of a peek a boo, i am above you, better dive away or i will skewer your hide... More of a lotto than careful positioning, and the default winners will be Allies this time, because you know how the average "climb like mad, dive on someone, run" meta works.

 

We are entering in to trans-sonic speed regimes, where turn radius of 4000m ++ is more of a norm than exception. A world that is closer to Mig 15 vs Sabre than Yak vs 109 of the time of old. 

With this view distance, the 262 will be kneecapped the most, but others will also suffer.

 

 The BoBP, as an online experience, will be incomplete as long this limitation stays. You need to add at least 5km to that limitation to enable high altitude combat... outside of crystal ball combat, ofc.

 

 

I would love if you could confirm my maths of a plane doing x speed and another doing y and at what distance they will meet from the 9.5 km distance. And the time for merge!

 

Not an easy maths problem! And your solution is incorrect as you assumed same speed and therefore same merge distance.

 

NB it is maths in the UK not math.

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by AeroAce

[Cpt_Siddy]

38 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

I see the argument for the render view and time to react if we are BOTH flying 262s at max speed (your calculation did not take into effect that the piston aircraft the 262 would be against would  be flying slower( by at least 100kph)). And that is a hard integration problem because the distance the prop plane would cover will be less than the 262, meaning there would be more time to spot as the the 262 will fly further than half of 5000m and the prop will fly less than 5000m before the merge. 

 

Check your math!!!

  

But for real it does only gives about 7-10 more seconds to your, they meet at half ways estimate! 

 

I think IRL you will not see these planes at these speeds even in a head to head, until it is very late. 10km is fine and making it to 15km or maybe 20km aint gona help you unless you have a bionic eye. 

 

 

 

I did back of my mental envelope calculation... without actual envelope. As we are asking to see only how long it takes them to meet, you can get it by taking the closing speeds and forming simple as seen on TV equation of (Xs*194m)+(Xs*222m)=10000m, (the m get divided away, leaving only the s value) this gives ~24s, in what times the faster have traveled 5328 meters and slower  4656 meters. On altitude where you leave nice and fat contrails, IE, the altitude the 262, 190 D-9, P-51 and P-47 were meant to operate, this leave very very small window to observer the furball. 

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[Gambit21]

If you know where to look you can see a 3 pixel (at 4K) Ju-52 being rendered at 20 km... 1 pixel 109 next to it.... forget it.

You can take a screen shot, blow it up in Photoshop and it's a bit easier. So the engine can render it,  but you won't spot it in a fight.

I've posted screens of this in the past, but it doesn't translate being first downsampled for uploading purposes, and second looking at it on a lower res monitor.

 

In any case, what I see renders a part of the render distance concern moot. Although what is capable of happening, and what is actually happening are a bit different..see above. So some improvement may still be possible, but again even if this happens you won't notice unless you get a 4K screen.

 

As for high alt, contrails etc I see the point. Maybe this can be adjusted down the road. I have no idea.

 

Smoke - that pops for me too.

 

Vehicles, trucks etc, nope. Currently with my setup I get those rendered long before I can easily pick them up with the naked eye.

 

Still need to run the in/out render test panning away...no time tonight though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Gambit21

[Cpt_Siddy]

14 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

If you know where to look you can see a 3 pixel (at 4K) Ju-52 being rendered at 20 km... 1 pixel 109 next to it.... forget it.

You can take a screen shot, blow it up in Photoshop and it's a bit easier. So the engine can render it,  but you won't spot it in a fight.

I've posted screens of this in the past, but it doesn't translate being first downsampled for uploading purposes, and second looking at it on a lower res monitor.

 

In any case, what I see renders a part of the render distance concern moot.

As for high alt, contrails etc you have more of a point. Maybe this can be adjusted at some point.

 

Smoke - that pops for me too.

 

Vehicles, trucks etc, nope. Currently with my setup I get those rendered long before I can easily pick them up with the naked eye.

 

Still need to run the in/out render test panning away...no time tonight though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, from start of this thread, my arguments were concerning the BoBP environment, where high altitude is more of an norm than the usual exception of crazy axis player that have climbed to 10km. We get planes that feel at home in 11km, generating full manifolds and even enough to get WEP on.  At those altitudes, assuming the contrail ceiling at 6-7km, you get rather large aerospace envelope where visibility of the environment is vastly different than it is on sub 5km. Pair that with rather high end late-war speeds you can maintain and you start feeling the pain of low visibility. 

 

I am all for the visibility to be only applied to contrails, even if the dot is invisible. But i want to see the bloody thing, and not the abrupt cut off you see in today's environment. 

 

The amount of humidity and actual atmosphere that is below the 6km and above 6km is akin something like this... 

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[Gambit21]

I hear ya.

The flip-side is that BoBp is largely tactical  - we don't have B-17's and B-24's.

So it's mostly about being down in the weeds.

 

The flip-side yet again...will I be making bomber escort/intercepts using the B-25?

Yes I will.

[69th_Panp]

I have never seen any thing rendered at 20 K in this sim,

all I have ever seen was a plane Popping in at 10 K like turning on a light bulb, I have reviewed so man tracks both online and off line tracks and always the same, not there 1 minute then it pops in at 10 k  

[Gambit21]

I’m using a static camera operator. 

So it’s possible that the pilot ‘head’ camera has a different hard-wired setting.

 

 That’s one possible explanation which I haven’t tested.

 

More than likely however you just don’t have the resolution and or it’s a settings issue. The engine is capable of rendering at over 20km however. See above.

 

 

Again see “in/out” caveat.

[Cpt_Siddy]

21 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

I’m using a static camera operator. 

So it’s possible that the pilot ‘head’ camera has a different hard-wired setting.

 

 That’s one possible explanation which I haven’t tested.

 

More than likely however you just don’t have the resolution and or it’s a settings issue. The engine is capable of rendering at over 20km however. See above.

 

 

Again see “in/out” caveat.

 

I am guessing that majority of people, when speaking of view distance, are talking about enforced limitation by the server. As long as server don't send your client the information about plane or target, no plane or target can be drawn, no matter what camera mode you have. 

 

This very limitation is the reason i made this thread in the first place. 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[Gambit21]

I see...yeah I know nothing of online server settings etc.

[Cpt_Siddy]

6 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

I see...yeah I know nothing of online server settings etc.

 

Ah, so we were talking about spotting in competently different contexts this whole time...

 

 

[E_Davjack]

Oof, if it is indeed different for online and offline, that is something we need to know.  I was observing in a practice on an online server and I was in the free camera, and planes definitely blinked out at a around 10km (no icons, but they were not 15km away for sure).  I am running 1080p, that also might matter.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

For bombing this game has an attrociously short draw distance. If I fly at 4km altitude the LOD bubble is some 20deg from your nose making buildings pop in at the last minute. And I run on Ultra settings. Would be nice to see targets a bit earlier to line up for the bomb run. Sure you can make screenshots etc. to get an idea where things are, but one should be able to see the intended target from a reasonable range, not just before you have to drop the bombs. Another thing is the LOD transition on planes. There is a MOD where the "shiny or metallic" view of a plane is added to a wider range of LOD. This seemed to help with the planes vanishing in front of your eyes as normally they go from shiny to matte surface making them extremely hard to see. With the mod there is contrast between the background and the plane helping a bit to spot it.

 

 

[CountZero]

6 hours ago, II./JG1_EmerlistDavjack said:

Oof, if it is indeed different for online and offline, that is something we need to know.  I was observing in a practice on an online server and I was in the free camera, and planes definitely blinked out at a around 10km (no icons, but they were not 15km away for sure).  I am running 1080p, that also might matter.

 

Its same online and offline, limit is same and cant be adjusted by servers ( in 1946 and clod, servers could set what they wonted, and that would be what user see when on server, here your always at 9,5km max)

 

yes all airplanes no mather what size just blink out, also size and resolution of your screan dont mather, its limited to hapend at that distance for any airplane at any graphic setting

 

even developers say limit is 10km, if you could see it from more then that they would be first to tell you how you can do that and to stop complaining on 9.5 limit, as i bet they are tired of people asking them to change this:

 

reddit question:  
"What are the plans to increase the very limiting 9.6k render distance? As planes increase in power and speed, being able to see farther and farther is more than important; it's necessary. "

 

Jasons answer:
"We already cheat to make planes more visible at that distance. To go further we’d need to implement some kind of graphical tweak and adjust many other areas like AI and physics etc. to make planes exist physically at longer distances. We’ve discussed it many times, but it requires a fair amount of work from our lead programmer who as you will see, shoulders most of the burden. And with modern monitors you end up simply running out of pixels and things devolve into dots and how we deal with those dots becomes and issue that takes time to do. So, my best answer is, we are well aware of the community’s desire to somehow increase your visual awareness of planes beyond 10km. It’s high on my list to tackle once we have a free moment to do it."

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uXBkq7U2MmcEwvNLkB2MkKNLkcAMl0em5Arq4Zn68bA/edit

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by 77.CountZero

[Gambit21]

4 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

 

yes all airplanes no mather what size just blink out, also size and resolution of your screan dont mather, its limited to hapend at that distance for any airplane...

 

even developers say limit is 10km, if you could see it from more then that they would be first to tell you how you can do that and to stop complaining on 9.5 limit, as i bet they are tired of people asking them to change this:

 

 

With respect I'd suggest that you refrain from making such declarations until you've done the carefully set up tests that I have on a similar monitor.

Not sure whether you just didn't read the thread, or you think I'm making things up.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

I just tested it again. Planes pop up from thin air to existence at exactly 9,5 km.

[Gambit21]

Yes, nobody doubts that happens for you under those circumstances on that equipment.

My test were to determine what the engine is currently capable of with a 4K monitor, NOT to determine what everyone else is experiencing on their equipment and setting. A few thick skulls around here.

I do have a different experience in some ways - vehicles are another good example as I said.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Only one thick skull here. Buildings and planes alike pop up at 9,5 km regardless of their size. Look at what Jason writes, and see the mods section too.

 

edit: heres test with Ju 52. Multi-pixel at 9,5 km... But he was not alone! The game doesnt draw them beyond that range unless you use a mod - which is of course impossible when flying online.

 

Spoiler

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by LeLv76_Erkki

[Gambit21]

Read the thread.

I’ll find a bag of hammers to do the same and compare results.

 

[CountZero]

the way i see it your only one who claims that can see contacts in game from more then 10km, while others show in pictures and videos how airplanes disapere when they are more then 9.5km from them.

I dont know your test proces, but you can show us how you do it if you wont and post pictures showing that contact you see is more then 10km from you ( icons on, so we can see hes not closer for example and you just think hes more then 10km from you) or post mission so others can see for them self if you have some test mission, im sure your not only one playing on 4k monitor so others would also say they can see better on bigger resolutions, but when devs say its 10km , and all exept you on forums also say they cant see more then 10km, i dont know how your only one who can. excluding mod that alowes you to see more then that i still think its imposible and your at falt somehow with your test method.

[Gambit21]

Count - I’ve posted pics in the past, they don’t translate for reasons already pointed out. I’d have to send you a full-Rez screen shot and you’d have to view it on a 4K monitor.

 

Yes I have a test mission, but it won’t change your results. 

 

As stated, I used the measuring tool and grid in the editor, and placed a camera at a known distance. Once they pop “in” I can pull that camera back, and back...and back. This distance was also measured.

 

Now what is that “in” pop  distance? I’d have to check again - it might very well be 10k.

I’ll run a test soon. It’s the “out” distance that’s more interesting as I keep saying.

 

Now - if I switch cameras and then go back - I can no longer see that aircraft until it again reaches its pop “in” distance (10k we’ll assume) but then I can pull out again beyond 20k

 

I mean no disrespect, but frankly I have neither the time or motivation to prove anything. If you think I’m not capable of measuring distance on the map and placing logic - that’s on you. 

 

 

 

Vehicles are rendered sooner than I can see with the naked eye (flying down low)

Oh and there’s no icon distance displayed at these ranges either.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Then why claim this

 

Quote

First, I can spot aircraft, and they ARE rendered up to 18k, even 20k on my 4K monitor.

 

...if you know its not true? No, they're not rendered until you get within 9,5 km no matter how big your screen and resolution are. Thats the whole problem here, the game makes checks of whats in range and what isnt.

 

You can indeed pull back the camera as these calculations are always made from the selected object(usually player aircraft) but that doesnt really help when you're stuck in the cockpit does it?