That laugh you get..............

[SOLIDKREATE]

The laugh I get thinking about what I am going to do to Fw-190's and ground targets in my P-38J.

 

 

 

[Bremspropeller]

That would make a great ringtone.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Like you, I too hope that the newer late war Allied aircraft will change the current game meta of the the uber 109.   However, I am not counting on it.

 

The limitations of the gaming format do not play to the strengths of the Allies, and never have.  Real life reliability, aircraft and fuel availability, aircraft build quality, late war pilot quality and numbers, mean nothing in the context of a video game.  Very early on in the genre people recognized this fact and that is why the 109 has been the best tool in combat flight gaming.  And yes I'm calling it gaming, as no matter how accurate the systems and physics modeling get, it's still a video game as there are too many factors that cannot be simulated that would need to be to make real life outcomes transfer to combat simulations (games).

 

We have two choices:  Fly with your heart, and fly the planes you like, or are attached to for whatever reason, or fly the plane the gets kills in an artificial environment easier.

 

I'll be flying out of bases on the West side of the front lines more often than not.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

well it could all be simulated (the only limit there is Physical Gforce)

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

How are you going to simulate poor pilot training, not enough fuel, poorly built late war aircraft, and not enough pilots to go around?

 

The same can be said for early Pacific scenarios as well.   How can you take the lot of us sim players that have tens of thousands of hours of experience, and then put them in F4Fs and P40s, and have them only try to turn with Zekes to properly simulate early Pacific engagements?  All the Luftwaffe squads, and really anyone that has been at this for a while, will fly only for the US and will only B&Z as that is the best way to defeat the superior turning A6M, and hence nothing will be historical at all.

 

That is how it played out when the Pacific Fighters expansion to the original IL2 came out.  It was just like the current sim online.  One side will totally out number the other and none of the US Navy guys will switch sides to make make more even, and historical matches.  Remember, in the early part of the Pacific War the Japanese enjoyed complete air superiority over everyone that they encountered.  Do you think it will play out that way in the sim?

 

It won't, been there, done that.

 

But I'll still fly for Japan, as they will be the underdog, just as I will fly for the Allies in Bodenplatte, as they will be the underdog, be sure.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by BlitzPig_EL

[Higaluto]

6 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Like you, I too hope that the newer late war Allied aircraft will change the current game meta of the the uber 109.   However, I am not counting on it.

 

The limitations of the gaming format do not play to the strengths of the Allies, and never have.  Real life reliability, aircraft and fuel availability, aircraft build quality, late war pilot quality and numbers, mean nothing in the context of a video game.  Very early on in the genre people recognized this fact and that is why the 109 has been the best tool in combat flight gaming.  And yes I'm calling it gaming, as no matter how accurate the systems and physics modeling get, it's still a video game as there are too many factors that cannot be simulated that would need to be to make real life outcomes transfer to combat simulations (games).

 

We have two choices:  Fly with your heart, and fly the planes you like, or are attached to for whatever reason, or fly the plane the gets kills in an artificial environment easier.

 

I'll be flying out of bases on the West side of the front lines more often than not.

So to simulate realism in bodenplatte, we should sit in the 109s with 20% fuel and have random engine failures. And only 10 players allowed on blue side to simulate allied strength in numbers, this is not how a flight sim works.

 

anyways we will not be fighting over 6000meters as there will be no strategic bombers, bodenplatte will be about low flying with bombs on the p47s and p39s and this is more the 109s domain. 

[LukeFF]

15 minutes ago, Higaluto said:

And only 10 players allowed on blue side to simulate allied strength in numbers, this is not how a flight sim works.

 

The so-called "blue side" on the Western Front was the Allies.

[Feathered_IV]

1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

How are you going to simulate poor pilot training, not enough fuel, poorly built late war aircraft, and not enough pilots to go around?

 

The same can be said for early Pacific scenarios as well.   How can you take the lot of us sim players that have tens of thousands of hours of experience, and then put them in F4Fs and P40s, and have them only try to turn with Zekes to properly simulate early Pacific engagements?  All the Luftwaffe squads, and really anyone that has been at this for a while, will fly only for the US and will only B&Z as that is the best way to defeat the superior turning A6M, and hence nothing will be historical at all.

 

That is how it played out when the Pacific Fighters expansion to the original IL2 came out.  It was just like the current sim online.  One side will totally out number the other and none of the US Navy guys will switch sides to make make more even, and historical matches.  Remember, in the early part of the Pacific War the Japanese enjoyed complete air superiority over everyone that they encountered.  Do you think it will play out that way in the sim?

 

It won't, been there, done that.

 

But I'll still fly for Japan, as they will be the underdog, just as I will fly for the Allies in Bodenplatte, as they will be the underdog, be sure.

 

 

 

All of this has the potential to be replicated in singleplayer, if their developers were on the ball in that area.  

[[CPT]Crunch]

Until the Zeke pilots figure out they can climb faster by not following or matching speed, and negate the advantage.   Can't boom someone who beats you to altitude.

 

As for the western front, don't fly the set up meat grinding ace maker maps.  The servers running campaigns with good ground wars should be dominated by western birds, they are hands down the superior tactical fighters.  Don't fight their fight, fight our war, and they won't stand a chance of winning a map.  They can count their lucky stars the bombers aren't showing up.

 

We should be advocating and advancing the ground wars complexity, that's whats going to make or break the tactical fighters.  Things such as bridges and facilities that interact better, and damages that actually persist and affect.  Not worried about 109's in the least.

[Nightrise]

Replace p38 with tempest and you have me 

[E_Davjack]

You can't model historical tactics in a multiplayer sim, so don't ever expect it. How is an American pilot supposed to pretend they don't know the Zero is near-uncontrollable at dive speeds? 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Is there a way for mission makers to limit available mods as targets are destroyed?  Or to lock fuel loads at a low level, if for instance, a refinery gets destroyed?

 

We can't replicate the real world, but perhaps we can add some aspects that will make the ground game more important?

[novicebutdeadly]

8 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

How are you going to simulate poor pilot training, not enough fuel, poorly built late war aircraft, and not enough pilots to go around?

 

The same can be said for early Pacific scenarios as well.   How can you take the lot of us sim players that have tens of thousands of hours of experience, and then put them in F4Fs and P40s, and have them only try to turn with Zekes to properly simulate early Pacific engagements?  All the Luftwaffe squads, and really anyone that has been at this for a while, will fly only for the US and will only B&Z as that is the best way to defeat the superior turning A6M, and hence nothing will be historical at all.

 

That is how it played out when the Pacific Fighters expansion to the original IL2 came out.  It was just like the current sim online.  One side will totally out number the other and none of the US Navy guys will switch sides to make make more even, and historical matches.  Remember, in the early part of the Pacific War the Japanese enjoyed complete air superiority over everyone that they encountered.  Do you think it will play out that way in the sim?

 

It won't, been there, done that.

 

But I'll still fly for Japan, as they will be the underdog, just as I will fly for the Allies in Bodenplatte, as they will be the underdog, be sure.

 

 

But who would buy a game to play online to have 15+ Allied aircraft to a single Axis aircraft (of various quality if the units mechanics didn't go over it, with limited fuel, with an engine that may last the mission... if it was built properly, etc).

I for one wouldn't.

That can be simulated in single player (which I don't play as I have no interest in it atm) where maybe the AI can be tweaked etc,

but playing online I am there to have fun, when I can find a server that has a ping under 350.......

And that is for me what it comes down to, this game is a simulation that is designed to be realistic and fun.

After all how realistic can a simulation be when there is a refly "button"?

To play it realistically you would have to un-install the game and never play it again when/if you died.












 

[csThor]

Nobody can simulate insufficient pilot training across the board, ludicrous command interference (Göring insisting on german fighters ignoring fighter escorts and only attack bombers), faulty doctrine or morale issues. Nobody can tell any player how he has to play the game. And you can't simulate dubious fabrication quality, lack of fuel and ammunition (unless you design and code an elaborate and very complicated system around the mission itself to simulate the resource war). 

 

If we were to go by realistic standards the Luftwaffe should not get any ground-pounding loadouts for their 190s and 109s on most maps (except when certain units which did operate in the G/A role were present and then only those should be able to do so) because by 1944 most fighter pilots had no idea of ground-attack ops as they were barely trained to fly their aircraft. But is that a sensible limitation in the confines of online gameplay? It could be done, with a little time and effort spent on setting up a not-so-standard task allocation and mission setup, but it would be more difficult for the mission creators.

 

Let's look at a possible "Market Garden" campaign for example ('scuse me if I'm rambling, just finished breakfast). We can't simulate the airdrops or any of the supply Drops nor the supporting heavy bomber raids, but we can simulate most of the purely tactical Fighting. What would be the task for the Allies? It would be fourfold:

 

1.) Air Support for 1st British AB (+ later Polish Brigade)

2.) Air Support for 101st US AB

3.) Air Support for 82nd US AB

4.) Air Support for XXX Corps

 

Included in this can be additional supporting Tasks as flak suppression in especially the first Mission etc. The Goal of the Campaign is to get XXX Corps to Arnhem before the Brits and Poles are being overrun by Bittrich's SS Corps (the Campaign would be set up in such a way that without player input the historical outcome would be achieved - the Brits get overrun with XXX Corps a few kilometers away). That means the Air Forces need to split their attention on various Areas, with XXX Corps and especially 1st British AB being the primary zones of interest. The Missions would have to be built in such a way that the Air Forces can help XXX Corps make a faster pace towards Arnhem, but if the players ignore the plight of 1st British AB the Allies will still lose the Campaign if the Paras are overrun earlier due to lack of Air Support. 

 

On the other hand the Luftwaffe wouldn't be able to do much against XXX Corps (due to the mentioned lack of G/A loadouts) but if they can fend off allied Air support missions against the roadblocks in front of it or @ Arnhem they can win the thing (they basically just need to fight the Allies to a stalemate). If Server Operators can then add something like limited plane availability they can enhance the Luftwaffe's problems by making them fly more conservatively so that their units aren't gutted by losses.

 

Like I said, just some thoughts that were jumbling through my (still sleep-fogged) brain over the first cup of coffee this morning.

Edited October 14, 2018 by csThor

[Bremspropeller]

One shouldn't place too much emphasis on the building quality of german late-war production aircraft. Yes, there was a large variance in production quality, but parts and spares were seldomly a factor.

 

With too little gas to fly on anyway, the worst airplanes could and would be cannibalized - either at the front squadrons, or before they ever reached the front. I have read numerous accounts where pilots tasked with ferrying airplanes to the front just cherrypicked.

They worst airframes were usually left behind.

 

 

BTW: You could build an entire P-47 campaign and never have the player meet any airborne opposition. You could also build coops that way - just have a crapton of Flak meet your every move and you'll be excited enough. That isn't unrealistic at all.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Bremspropeller

[rolikiraly]

17 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

[...]

 

The limitations of the gaming format do not play to the strengths of the Allies, and never have.  [...] aircraft build quality, [...] pilot quality [...]

 

I think the early Russians are better off without these factors modelled 

[Sunde]

9 hours ago, rolikiraly said:

 

I think the early Russians are better off without these factors modelled 

Had to laugh at this, completely agree. Imagine this game if quality of airframe/pilots were somehow forced to be as it was back then.
Nobody would fly allies ;).  

Edited October 14, 2018 by Miller1

[[CPT]Crunch]

It's not going to be so bad when all the various allied birds team together and their pilots figure out their rides and their own best strengths.  P-47's, 38's, 51's, so vastly different, yet similar in their own style, not to mention their Commonwealth brethren.  Don't mind the Lufties at their peak, please give them the very best, as much as they need, with time we'll still eat their lunch.  Our planes just need to be ballpark close, going to be a fun ride, a time of seasoning while we master our new mounts and develop tactics against an opponent who believes they're already at the top.  In the end they still have a much smaller tool box, thus the ones about to get a rude awakening.