Tempest

[ZachariasX]

3 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

 

It helps if look at the Tempest loss list and not the Typhoon loss list.?

 

Sgt Campbell (SN166) and F/L Robertson (EJ588) collided and crashed north of Rotenburg.

 

56 OTO also lost 2 Tempests (EJ685, NV759) on that date as well as one from #222 (NV985).

Thnx! Always good to have different scources.

 

Edit: Campbells/Robertsons indicated crash location would actually match Clostermanns description. They collided while lining up in their holding position and not while doing the fly by. And that was south of Bremerhaven. For >200 aircraft to assemble on tight formations of severa dozens, a distance of ~40 miles is reasonsble.

Edited January 4, 2019 by ZachariasX

[MiloMorai]

Rotenburg is ~25mi east of Bremen and ~45 mi from Bremerhaven.

[Haza]

On 1/3/2019 at 12:42 AM, ZachariasX said:

Yes, he did, for several newspapers and making a good penny from that. Apart from his writing abilities, he was fluent in Portuguese (his mother tongue), French, (also his mother tongue) and English (through school and studies in the States) and he would write articles in all three languages for Brazillian, American and British newspapers.

 

He ended up being a close friend of Ernest Hemingway, taking over the presiding position of the international game fish association after Hemingways passing.

 

Him being known for literacy also brought him a temporary assignement for the Free French fleet and aboard the Richelieu as liaison officer to escort a convoy on the Murmansk route.

 

He was an unusual creature in many ways, something that the RAF brass clearly noticed that. Being on deGaulles „priotity list“ added to that.

 

Maybe. Although I consider it a very good idea to take any yarn from any young lad in such a situation.

 

Badmouthing each other for losing wingmen is about the cheapest shot you can take, Pierre himself did that when talking about Fairbanks. What is for sure is that when machine gunning Flak protected ground targets, the following aircraft are less likely to make it than the leader. Fairbanks proved that by making a sport out of finding and shooting planes in the circuit of Rhine, a sport that was very unbecoming for wingmen.

 

On the other hand, Clostermann possibly carries the distinction of losing most Tempests in a sortie. This when attacking the airfield at Schwerin when no Typhies against Flak showed up and unknown to them, Himmler had landed there, bringing in extra Flak. Out of eight, just he and Bay Adams would return. Quelle connerie!

 

But reading Spurdles and Sheddans accounts, diving into known hairy situations, even if everybody knew that tem being Flak traps was routine business. Compared to those two, Pierre comes across as rather conservative, also occasionally aborting attack on trains that stopped or not doing second passes. He was certainly lacking Sheddans fatalism or Spurdles urge to kill Germans.

 

In later interviews at least, being explicitly asked on „habits of overclaiming“, Clostermann himself said that he didn‘t feel the need for claiming anything he coudn‘t prove and giving his own tally of air kills (AFAIR) around 17 aircraft, but I can check that. He said that he even shared one of his last kills with an Mustang pilot, as they were chasing the same victim. He thought that is was proper sport like that and a nice gesture, even though it ultimately meant wing 122 not being the top scorer. I could check that up in detail once I‘m back in my library, should there be interest.

 

The 33 crosses on the „Grand Charles“ reflect differences in counting, as French would put ground kills on there as well. Also, at no point in his book he would put something like „now I had then kills, being better than XY“. Air kills only exist in context of a good story. Remarkably enough, he never uses it for profiling himself in his writings and building an image.

 

There is one instance where he still shows respect to kill marks on planes. At the end of the hostilities on May 6th, 5 Me-262 from Prage(?) came in and landed on their airfield. The German commander was perfectly fluent in French, telling that he was of Hugenot ancestry and at his home they would always speak French. *) Clostermann showed him his park of Tempest, intentionally leading him up to the „Grand Charles“ with its crosses. The German however would ignore that entirely, being just interested in the aircraft, obviously having some deeper admiration for that fighter type.

After going through the logs of that german commander, Clostermann would see that he had scored „a hundred“ kills. Giving those 5 Germans the same quarters as they had themself he also saw that this guy had some pretty bad scars on his back.

 

Anyone able to find out who this was, and which squadron of 262?

 

 

 

*) That commander handed Closterman his Luger Pistol, something Clostermann kept for life afterwards. Clostermann even used that Luger later in the Algerian conflict, when the barman thought he wouldn‘t serve French military rating such as him, he convinced him at gun point. 

 

 

@ZachariasX

 

I have gone through the ace list of JG-7 to possibly identify the German pilot that you mentioned above and then try and chase down their bios.  However, currently owing to the fact that Siegfried Freytag was an ace >100 and post WW2 joined the French Foreign Legion (assuming he could therefore speak French without having to learn it), perhaps he might be the man you are looking for.  Anyway good luck in your quest as i can't find any further info on Freytag, only it does say that he finished with JG77!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_Freytag

 

Regards

H

Edited January 4, 2019 by Haza

[ZachariasX]

14 hours ago, Haza said:

 

@ZachariasX

 

I have gone through the ace list of JG-7 to possibly identify the German pilot that you mentioned above and then try and chase down their bios.  However, currently owing to the fact that Siegfried Freytag was an ace >100 and post WW2 joined the French Foreign Legion (assuming he could therefore speak French without having to learn it), perhaps he might be the man you are looking for.  Anyway good luck in your quest as i can't find any further info on Freytag, only it does say that he finished with JG77!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_Freytag

 

Regards

H

Thanks!! He definitely would fit the picture, also fitting the injury that Clostermann noticed.

 

The German pilots were allowed to use the same accomodation as the British pilots, hence he noticed the scars. Upon their arrival, Pierre was calling staff, saying he had 5 German pilots as his guests. They told him that they had 5 million of such and he should go and f himself. So after a couple of days casual company (while the Germans were always bringing over residial food to their more unfortunate comerades that were kept behind barbed wire), Pierre just let them go, being fed up with the bureaucrats.

 

What the Germans couldn't do is take a flight in a Tempest, even they would have very much liked to do so.

[DD_Arthur]

Let me get this right; 

 

 Siegfried Freytag finished the war as a Major in the LW.  Then in 1952 - when he was in his thirties - he enlisted in the Legion and rose to the rank of sergeant during the course of a twenty- year career?

 

Must have been a bit of a headbanger!

[EAF19_Marsh]

Huh. Am sure the account is 100% accurate in all areas.

[Bremspropeller]

38 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

Siegfried Freytag finished the war as a Major in the LW.  Then in 1952 - when he was in his thirties - he enlisted in the Legion and rose to the rank of sergeant during the course of a twenty- year career?

 

...and then apparently requested to be demoted himself.

 

Sounds funny, yeah. ?

[ZachariasX]

17 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

Huh. Am sure the account is 100% accurate in all areas.

Which one? Is there such?

 

I‘d say we should look for as many records as possible. And then see how and where they are consistent.

 

Even making up stuff doesn‘t come from nowhere. There‘s most often a reason why someone comes up with something specifically. You can readily lie about most things, still using „true facts“. Conversely, you can say true things with a heap of BS. It doesn‘t matter what is said or written, all that matters is what you make from it.

 

Even squadron logs are just diaries, written down often enogh by people that should be sent for therapy. Those logs even have a purpose. Depending on what is to put on record, there might be incentives filling out those logs in a certain way depending on occasion.

 

That is why I hope we can assemble here more specific info on the Tempest than what is commonly passed around. The more we have, the more we know what was.

[Haza]

4 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

Let me get this right; 

 

 Siegfried Freytag finished the war as a Major in the LW.  Then in 1952 - when he was in his thirties - he enlisted in the Legion and rose to the rank of sergeant during the course of a twenty- year career?

 

Must have been a bit of a headbanger!

 

Oh come on you being a Brit, you must know that fella that did all the stuff during WW1 in the middle east. He was clever rose up the ranks in the army apparently becoming a full Colonel and post the war tried to join the RAF as an ac (private) and was eventually allowed. 

 

Although perhaps not a headbanger, apparently his death also assisted with things to try and stop  deaths from bang(ers) to the head and I don't mean sausages. (Sorry was trying a play on words) 

 

Regards

Edited January 5, 2019 by Haza

[DD_Arthur]

22 minutes ago, Haza said:

Oh come on you being a Brit, 

 

Being a Brit, I recognize the trait. 

 

I'm just curious about it's manifestation in other tribes.

 

btw; complete coincidence but earlier today, as I was having a clear out of crap - to accommodate the crap given to us last week - I found a box of books I'd forgotten about.

Upon opening,  the first book I pulled out was 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom'.  

[Haza]

Just now, DD_Arthur said:

 

Being a Brit, I recognize the trait. 

 

I'm just curious about it's manifestation in other tribes.

 

btw; complete coincidence but earlier today, as I was having a clear out of crap - to accommodate the crap given to us last week - I found a box of books I'd forgotten about.

Upon opening,  the first book I pulled out was 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom'.  

 

As a young lad I was always told he was killed near Cranwell on his bike but now realise that the story was wrong, as I always tried to check the road when driving along Ermine St to see if I could see any memorial, so that might explain why I never found anything.

 

Anyway, I have always promised myself that I would read that  but still haven't got round to it! However, I was just looking it up on the Book Depository and now I'm currently placing an order! Apparently the French didn't like him, although lots of people didn't. LOL

 

Regards

[BlitzPig_EL]

2 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom'.  

 

I have an original first public release copy (1935) of Seven Pillars of Wisdom.  Hardcover in a sleeve box with all the illustration plates.

 

Hard not to own it with my call sign.

[Diggun]

T. E. Lawrences' final report on passing out of Sandhurst famously reads something like 'The only reason I can imagine men following this officer into battle is out of a morbid sense of curiosity to see what happens next...' ?

Edited January 6, 2019 by Diggun

[PatrickAWlson]

On 1/5/2019 at 12:17 PM, DD_Arthur said:

Let me get this right; 

 

 Siegfried Freytag finished the war as a Major in the LW.  Then in 1952 - when he was in his thirties - he enlisted in the Legion and rose to the rank of sergeant during the course of a twenty- year career?

 

Must have been a bit of a headbanger!

 

It's wiki so ... but it says after being promoted to sergeant he asked to be demoted to corporal.  So headbanger might be just the right description.

[ZachariasX]

32 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

So headbanger might be just the right description.

The headbanger that likely shot down 21 kill ace Wally McLeod in a fair fight after being bounced in his 109 by Wally and Johnie Johnson.

 

Besides, I don‘t think the French Legion enlists people to shower them with promotions and a career. We also can only speculate about the work he was assigned to that convinced him to ask for a demotion, even at that level. But I am very confident that the French Legion has such at disposition.

[Sgt_Joch]

The French Foreign Legion will accept any qualified candidate, no questions asked. After the war, many SS men who were wanted for war crimes conveniently "escaped" by joining the legion. For about 20 years after the war, there was a large proportion of legionnaires with german accents.

 

Not saying this is the case, but the Legion is the perfect organisation for soldiers who no longer have an army of their own.

[Bremspropeller]

33 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

Not saying this is the case, but the Legion is the perfect organisation for soldiers who no longer have an army of their own.

 

...or a home, family and purposeful life to return to.

 

Anyway, back to topic please.