Tempest

[CountZero]

in 1946 rear view was terible, but by looking at thouse p-47 in cockpit pictures i see here tempest rear view will be great, it will be best allied airplane for sure, speed firepower and great views nothing more needed 

[Diggun]

2 hours ago, Tyberan said:

Derek Robinson writes funny stuff

Funny stuff & incredibly poignant and moving stuff too. In my mind the finest novelist writing about aviation in English (and he was totally robbed for the Booker Prize in the '70's). About the only other novel which can be mentioned in the same breath as Robinson's work is Len Deighton's Bomber.

 

Some of his unique sense of humour can be seen on his 'readers write' section of his website...

 

http://www.derekrobinson.info/ReadersWritePrevious.html

[EAF19_Marsh]

Also recommend his WW1 books, though be advised the factual accuracy - while not bad - is somewhat sacrificed for narrative and story.

[MD_Titus_Gibbonicus]

On 10/7/2018 at 1:45 AM, BlitzPig_EL said:

Very much looking forward to it.

 

As an aside, the cockpit texturing was done by BlitzPig_Hammered.  

 

The Pigs were everywhere...  Be sure.

 

You know, now that I think about it, Hammered did the default skins for the Tempest, not the cockpit.

He did some anton skins as well (plus a bunch of others), if i recall correctly, some beautiful work. 

[Diggun]

Late birthday present arrives! Yay! 

[EAF19_Marsh]

Great book.

[CountZero]

saber iia and saber iib maybe as mod, 9, 11,13 lbs or even more? what are timelines? any conclusions by now from all reserch topics from someone who pay attention, i didnt read them all

 not many modifications posible for tempest so i hope we get best engine settings as modifications then 

[Talon_]

Conclusions from the research thread: +11lbs 3850rpm Saber IIB standard with +13lbs 3850rpm, Rotol prop around the same time as the K-4 got 1.98

[MiloMorai]

24 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

Conclusions from the research thread: +11lbs 3850rpm Saber IIB standard with +13lbs 3850rpm, Rotol prop around the same time as the K-4 got 1.98

 

Yes, the Tempest should 13lb boost.

[CountZero]

thaks, thats great

[EAF19_Marsh]

16 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

 

Yes, the Tempest should 13lb boost.

 

Well, maybe 2 models: one for the Autumn fleet and the second for the replacement a/c arriving as BoBp kicks-off.

 

If it is the early model only that will be a little sad given the relative aircraft available.

Edited November 11, 2018 by EAF19_Marsh

[DD_fruitbat]

If there isn't both 11lbs and 13lbs, it will be somewhat strange, considering we will have 1.98 ata for 11 bf109 airframes. If it just comes in 9lbs I'll be mystified.

 

Regardless, really looking forward to flying a tempest where you can see  behind!

Edited November 11, 2018 by DD_fruitbat

[Avimimus]

On 10/8/2018 at 4:11 AM, LukeFF said:

 

Not exactly many German bombers flying daylight missions on the Western Front by late-1944, outside of Ar 234s.

 

Hence the need for night fighters  :p 

[Haza]

1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

 

Hence the need for night fighters  ?

 

I've been eating extra vr carrots in anticipation of night sorties.

[Talon_]

On 10/8/2018 at 9:11 AM, LukeFF said:

 

Not exactly many German bombers flying daylight missions on the Western Front by late-1944, outside of Ar 234s.

 

More than you might think

 

26th Nov, two pilots claim Ju188

26th Nov, JN869 claims Ju188

28th Nov, JN869 claims He219

28th Nov, 5 pilots share He219

14th Jan 45, EJ762 claims He219

2nd Feb, 3 pilots shre Do217

21st Feb, EJ771 claims Ju88

24th Feb, two pilots share Ju88

28th Feb, two pilots share Si204

2nd March, first Ar234 is claimed by EJ882

14th March, second Ar234 shared by two pilots

28th March, two pilots (including Clostermann) share Ju88

31st March, four pilots share Ju188

5th April, Clostermann in EJ536 claims Ju88

12th April, two pilots share Ju88

15th April, third Ar234 shared by two pilots

16th April, Ju88 shared by two pilots

17th April, Ju88 shared by two pilots

20th April, Ju290 claimed by Clostermann, NV994

23rd April, Ju188 claimed by EJ781

28th April, Ju352 shared by two pilots

30th April, Ju352 shared by two pilots

1st May, Ju88 claimed by SN189

1st May, He111 shared by two pilots

2nd May, Bv138 shared by two pilots

2nd May, Ju52 claimed by EJ601

2nd May, another Bv138 shared by two pilots

3rd May, Ju252 claimed by Clostermann (unknown S.N.)

3rd May, Do217 claimed by SN181

3rd May, Ju88 claimed by SN176

3rd May, Ju88 claimed by JN802

 

Tempest claims only

Edited November 12, 2018 by Talon_

[unreasonable]

I would bet that the vast majority of those were simply caught in transit or delivery flights at low level well behind German lines.

[Haza]

1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

 

More than you might think

 

26th Nov, two pilots claim Ju188

26th Nov, JN869 claims Ju188

28th Nov, JN869 claims He219

28th Nov, 5 pilots share He219

14th Jan 45, EJ762 claims He219

2nd Feb, 3 pilots shre Do217

21st Feb, EJ771 claims Ju88

24th Feb, two pilots share Ju88

28th Feb, two pilots share Si204

2nd March, first Ar234 is claimed by EJ882

14th March, second Ar234 shared by two pilots

28th March, two pilots (including Clostermann) share Ju88

31st March, four pilots share Ju188

5th April, Clostermann in EJ536 claims Ju88

12th April, two pilots share Ju88

15th April, third Ar234 shared by two pilots

16th April, Ju88 shared by two pilots

17th April, Ju88 shared by two pilots

20th April, Ju290 claimed by Clostermann, NV994

23rd April, Ju188 claimed by EJ781

28th April, Ju352 shared by two pilots

30th April, Ju352 shared by two pilots

1st May, Ju88 claimed by SN189

1st May, He111 shared by two pilots

2nd May, Bv138 shared by two pilots

2nd May, Ju52 claimed by EJ601

2nd May, another Bv138 shared by two pilots

3rd May, Ju252 claimed by Clostermann (unknown S.N.)

3rd May, Do217 claimed by SN181

3rd May, Ju88 claimed by SN176

3rd May, Ju88 claimed by JN802

 

Tempest claims only

 

Never heard of an Si204 so had to look it up! Wonders never cease.

[453=Thornley]

12 hours ago, DD_fruitbat said:

If there isn't both 11lbs and 13lbs, it will be somewhat strange, considering we will have 1.98 ata for 11 bf109 airframes. If it just comes in 9lbs I'll be mystified.

 

I'm pretty sure we'll see the 9lb with maybe the 11lb as a mod and I'll explain why.

 

BoX may be a historical flight sim, but It's also, first and fore most, a Multiplayer PVP game. To make maximum profits, it follows the standard multiplayer PVP rules, things like,

-have factions with themes,

-adding more powerful units as time goes by to get players to keep buying,

-Buffing & Nerfing aircraft that are too strong or weak,

-and having a single player 'training' mode but not making it too good or it will detract from the PVP experience numbers.

 

The developers have played upon genuine national traits to give nations a theme and they use this to balance the game.  In BoX at the moment, the Germans have the fastest aircraft and own the mid and high altitudes. Russian & early Allied aircraft are more manoeuvrable but lack speed at any sort of height. BoBP will fit in well, with the American's having the fastest but least manoeuvrable aircraft, owning the heights but becoming prey if caught slow & low. This will force the Germans into the mid heights but as they can out run the Russian/Early Allied planes and out turn the faster American stuff, this should all work out well. The new 1.98ata 109 will fit into this mid alt role well. 

 

There's a problem though, the late war British aircraft. They're not fitting into the carefully created program. The Spitfire F.XIV would have dominated the Germans at pretty much all altitudes and hence has to be left out of the game for balance. Instead the Spitfire LF.IX was added but even this was found to be too strong at mid heights and the automatic radiator overheating nerf had to be added in the last patch to reduce it to a low level fighter. Similarly, giving it the historical 25lb psi boost would have caused problems so it was left out.

 

Now with the Tempest, I think they'll find that the 13lb psi variant will also be too powerful at mid heights. The Focke-Wulfs in particular are going to suffer badly if the Tempest can catch & out turn them at height. So my bet is we'll see a lower psi variant that is still very powerful at low altitude but not much of a threat higher up.

 

Bloodsplatter.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Bloodsplatter

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, Bloodsplatter said:

BoX may be a historical flight sim, but It's also, first and fore most, a Multiplayer PVP game.

 

Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

3 hours ago, Bloodsplatter said:

have factions with themes,

 

Yes, those things called "nations" and "air forces" are pretty typical in combat flight simulators.

 

3 hours ago, Bloodsplatter said:

adding more powerful units as time goes by to get players to keep buying,

 

Yes, that's typically what happens when a war goes on for multiple years. But wait! Moscow was released after Stalingrad, i.e., weaker units. What gives, bro?

 

3 hours ago, Bloodsplatter said:

Buffing & Nerfing aircraft that are too strong or weak,

 

It's called modeling things according to the best data and as that data is available. This is isn't War Thunder.

 

3 hours ago, Bloodsplatter said:

having a single player 'training' mode but not making it too good or it will detract from the PVP experience numbers.

 

WTF? How much time have you spent in SP? Do you really, truthfully, think the team is wilfully holding back on SP development because they want people to play MP?

 

Geeze, just when you think you've read it all...

Edited November 12, 2018 by LukeFF

[bzc3lk]

1 hour ago, Bloodsplatter said:

 

 

 

BoX may be a historical flight sim, but It's also, first and fore most, a Multiplayer PVP game. To make maximum profits, it follows the standard multiplayer PVP rules, things like,

 

Bloodsplatter.

 

Jason himself said that 90% of the customer base was single player in one of his Q&A sessions ,based on that  I would consider your statement to be "first and foremost" erroneous. From the man himself 2.33.00 time stamp.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0TawmZ49oU

Edited November 12, 2018 by bzc3lk

[453=Thornley]

Bzc3lk,   

 

I agree with you, I think there's a lot more single players than multiplayer, but the single players tend to be more casual. Very few of the single players play with the consistency of the multiplayer crowd. The multiplayers are the diehards who will buy every version and every custom plane.

 

Let me give you two examples of Jason's focus.

 

In Jason's first game, ROF, there was over $300 USD of aircraft and mods you could buy which made multiplayer awesome, but they NEVER finished the single player campaign. Never! It's still in beta now!

 

In this, Jason's second game (BoX), the single player campaign for the first two installments (BoS & BoM) was a just a mission generator that gave you a campaign 'win' if you did enough missions. Seriously, that's not a focus on single player. That's the bare minimum to to be able to put 'Has a single player campaign!' on the box!

Edited November 12, 2018 by Bloodsplatter

[bzc3lk]

Bloodsplatter,

                         You will have no disagreement where Rof was concerned, I too agree, it was primarily a multiplayer game when released and probably through most of its growing period. I spent many nights flying on line with the Oceanic Squad, with a good selection of patronized servers thoroughly enjoying myself with the  up and close personal style of dog fighting , something I don't experience with WW 2 fighters for obvious reasons.

                          I think that Bos, Bom, Bok, Bobp series has taken a new path where single player is concerned ( post Loft departure) , especially under the new management of Jason Williams, but due to the way their game engine functions, are reaching the limits of what some of our hardware can process. Another let down for single player base is that many people cannot get their heads around the mission editor for a variety of reasons so you will not see the plethora of missions like the previous Il 2 series, but thanks to PatrickAWilson we have PWCG to scratch that itch.

                          I think until they change AI flight modeling / gunner code , there may not be significant gains in the single player mission performance.

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by bzc3lk

[Kurfurst]

15 hours ago, Talon_ said:

Conclusions from the research thread: +11lbs 3850rpm Saber IIB standard with +13lbs 3850rpm, Rotol prop around the same time as the K-4 got 1.98

 

That is more like fantasy.

 

In fact the evidence presented in  the research showed Tempest arrived in the continent with +9 lbs boost, while +11 capable Sabre IIB only turned up in service in January 1945.

 

+13 is known to be very likes to be  Clostermann’s mistake in his books and have never existed as a service rating during WW2.

 

Decision to revert all Sabre engines to +9lbs in September 1944.

 

[Legioneod]

22 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

That is more like fantasy.

 

In fact the evidence presented in  the research showed Tempest arrived in the continent with +9 lbs boost, while +11 capable Sabre IIB only turned up in service in January 1945.

 

+13 is known to be very likes to be  Clostermann’s mistake in his books and have never existed as a service rating during WW2.

 

Decision to revert all Sabre engines to +9lbs in September 1944.

 

 

Does it really matter? German fans got their 1.98 K4.

Give the british fans what they want.

 

As long as it was used to some degree during the conflict I say give it to them.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Legioneod

[Kurfurst]

31 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

Does it really matter? German fans got their 1.98 K4.

Give the british fans what they want.

 

As long as it was used to some degree during the conflict I say give it to them.

 

It doesn’t hurt to have at least some historical rooting, but in general I agree - the more options there are the better, it gives mission makers and MP servers more to play with, and it makes everybody happy.

 

With the 109K, we get two engine ratings, 1,8 and 1,98. I cannot see why we should not get both +9 and +11 engine ratings for the Tempest, too.

Edited November 12, 2018 by VO101Kurfurst

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Bloodsplatter said:

I agree with you, I think there's a lot more single players than multiplayer, but the single players tend to be more casual. Very few of the single players play with the consistency of the multiplayer crowd. The multiplayers are the diehards who will buy every version and every custom plane.

 

And you have nothing to back up that statement at_all. You're just trying to promote MP while denigrating any sort of effort being made to improve SP gameplay. Thankfully, based on how much work has gone - and continues to go into - developing SP, the devs don't agree with your assessment. 

2 hours ago, Bloodsplatter said:

In this, Jason's second game (BoX), the single player campaign for the first two installments (BoS & BoM) was a just a mission generator that gave you a campaign 'win' if you did enough missions. Seriously, that's not a focus on single player. That's the bare minimum to to be able to put 'Has a single player campaign!' on the box!

 

And do you realize Jason's involvement in the project wasn't the same back then as it was now? It's not a coincidence that the implementation of a proper SP career mode came at the same time his role in the game's development changed.

[spudkopf]

On 10/15/2018 at 9:58 PM, Diggun said:

Late birthday present arrives! Yay! 

 

Early birthday present (from myself) arrives! Yay! 

 

 

 

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

Decision to revert all Sabre engines to +9lbs in September 1944.

 

Note it refers to the diminishing V-1 threat ('now that the menace is over')and hence is for the UK-based ADGB, in order save on engine wear. But (much like your 1.98 was disallowed Jan to March) this was reversed for 122 Wing on the continent given the need to engage -262s / -234s. There is a document citing this around here somewhere and it is cited in - IIRC - Chris Thomas' Tempest Squadrons of the RAF which also shows that 11lb boost / 2,420 hp was the standard engine setting for the entire of the Sabre IIB-equipped 122 Wing Tempest from Autumn '44 (in the same way that 1.98 was not standard for K-4 units) ?

 

The 13lb boost aircraft is a very rare creature and I would not reply on P. Clostermann for factual data.

 

So a 9lb and 11lb would be just peachy. If we get just 9lb then we are looking at a summer Tempest V which is a little unfair given the March 1945 opposition

Edited November 12, 2018 by EAF19_Marsh

[Kurfurst]

If there is a document 'here around somewhere', I would like to see it. 

 

Also, unless there would be only '109K vs Tempest' servers, there is nothing unfair in modelling the Tempest at both on their +9 ratings for 1944 and their +11 ratings for 1945 scenarios.

 

Last I checked we also have G-14s and the poor A-8 in the sim, and those are definitely not December 1944 aircraft but mid-1944.

[MiloMorai]

12 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

If there is a document 'here around somewhere', I would like to see it. 

 

Also, unless there would be only '109K vs Tempest' servers, there is nothing unfair in modelling the Tempest at both on their +9 ratings for 1944 and their +11 ratings for 1945 scenarios.

 

Last I checked we also have G-14s and the poor A-8 in the sim, and those are definitely not December 1944 aircraft but mid-1944.

 

The largest percentage of 109s participating in Bodenplatte was G-14s as were Fw190A-8s.

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

If there is a document 'here around somewhere', I would like to see it. 

 

Kurfy, some of us have day jobs. IIRC it is in Thoma's book and probably Talon or someone else around here has a scan of it. One of the documents is here but as I told you there are others which I do not currently have time to find:

 

 

All stated figures on the Series II Tempests - ie those that saw service in the BoBp time-frame - give the engine as approved for 11lb boost and 2,400hp. Given the evidence situation for your beloved 1.98 K-4 is questionable at best, pipe down and enjoy your unicorn ?

[CountZero]

what about RP-3 rockets, were they used in ww2 on tempest v?

from what i see only modifications it could have are bombs and maybe engine on high boost, any other fancy stuff like mirror, radio, 6cl warning and so on...?

[EAF19_Marsh]

Not sure they were used during the war - the Typhoons were numerous enough (the Spit option with RPs is a little strange as well from this perspective).

 

Were used - I think - on the Mk VI in IAF service. Otherwise, it’s basically drop-tanks and the different engine settings. 

[mumbojumbo]

14 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

what about RP-3 rockets, were they used in ww2 on tempest v?

from what i see only modifications it could have are bombs and maybe engine on high boost, any other fancy stuff like mirror, radio, 6cl warning and so on...?and 

 

Only mods I can think of are the removal of the reflector screen from the gunsight and having it reflect straight on to the windscreen. Sure someone else has already covered that in this thread or another. 

[Diggun]

3 hours ago, spudkopf said:

Early birthday present (from myself) arrives! Yay! 

Self presents are the best presents. My Pilots Notes also arrived a few weeks ago. Would be interesting to know how much BoBP has affected sales of that compared to last year...

[EAF19_Marsh]

3 minutes ago, Tarks91 said:

 

Only mods I can think of are the removal of the reflector screen from the gunsight and having it reflect straight on to the windscreen. Sure someone else has already covered that in this thread or another. 

 

Good point. Not sure when / if this became standard - was it maybe a common field mod for 122 Wing in Holland?

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Good point. Not sure when / if this became standard - was it maybe a common field mod for 122 Wing in Holland?

It was default.

[EAF19_Marsh]

45 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

It was default.

 

OK. Some Tempest pics appear to have the gunsigh glass as well, but maybe they are just the early ones.

 

Anyway, is a useful option.

[Talon_]

8 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

That is more like fantasy.

 

In fact the evidence presented in  the research showed Tempest arrived in the continent with +9 lbs boost, while +11 capable Sabre IIB only turned up in service in January 1945.

 

+13 is known to be very likes to be  Clostermann’s mistake in his books and have never existed as a service rating during WW2.

 

Decision to revert all Sabre engines to +9lbs in September 1944.

 

 

We have been over this. Paragraph 3 recommends against derating the Sabre IIB* engines in the converted Tempests.

 

*Sabre IIB was not designated as Sabre IIB until modifications were standardised in September 1944 but continued as Sabre IIA designation even at +11lbs boost according to 150 wing ORBs

7 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

I cannot see why we should not get both +9 and +11 engine ratings for the Tempest, too.

 

Mainly because +9lbs was never used by Tempests operationally after August 1944.

2 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Good point. Not sure when / if this became standard - was it maybe a common field mod for 122 Wing in Holland?

 

Standard from the factory or the MU by the end of Summer

Edited November 12, 2018 by Talon_

[EAF19_Marsh]

That's nicely cleared then and confirms what is written in just about any and all books that I have ever read on the subject: Series II, Sabre IIB equipped Tempest Vs get 11lb boost and 2,420hp at 3, 850 RPM as a standard fit by the timeframe of BoBp. Makes the FM development a lot easier and hopefuly brings the aircraft along a little faster.