Il2's Communication Problem

[[TWB]Sauerkraut-]

I started flying sims with Il2 BoX. I've had an amazing time of it, and have since also become quite involved in DCS. This being said, I've now found myself wanting to spend a lot more time flying DCS than Il2. For example, despite the fact that I have been very excited for the new TAW campaign, I have very few actual missions flown. 

 

After thinking pretty heavily about it, I think I've come to a conclusion. It has everything to do with communication.

 

When I fly in DCS multiplayer, I'm often on voice comms with people, often because that server requires you to be on voice comms. People who have never interacted with each other before will often squad up for a few sorties. Even when you don't, the level of cooperation is immense and satisfying.

 

When I fly Il2 multiplayer, I'm almost always flying alone. People are almost never using comms, and when they are its only with their squad.  The amount of coordination that a team can have with chat is severely limited. A lot of people don't even seem to say anything over the chat. When I offer to fly with people, the most common response is the lack of one.

I understand that most Il2 players are not based in the US and are not native English speakers, but even the ones who are never seem to want to chat.

 

This has left me starting to feel a bit... apathetic toward online MP. It feels like flying SP except the AI are actual skilled players. Doing everything by myself can only be so much fun, especially when a majority of every mission is just flying to or from somewhere with nothing else to really do. Now, whenever I play Il2 I spend most of my time on Bergola b/c it's the only thing that's as entertaining as flying with people on DCS MP.

 

When you have people to fly with, even the most mundane things can be fun. Unfortunately, it just seems like no one playing Il2 MP wants to do that. I've considered joining a squad, but as a college student I simply don't have the time to fly with people on a consistent schedule.

Edited October 2, 2018 by itsthatguy

[CountZero]

just check taw ts3, and there is like 30ppl on ts3 now, im sure you could fined some frendly guys there, on wol ts3 you can found east language players almost every day on ts3, where are other internationals on wol i dont kow

 

some time playing with random guys on ts3 is not mutch coordination so people who play longer tend to keep to them self, so maybe thats why you cant locate ppl on one or two main ts3 places as they stick with their team ts3s.

 

 

[BlackHellHound1]

A lot of people are now also on discord. 

I know several servers that regularly have people playing that you can join. 

Currently, the biggest and by far the most active is DerSheriff's discord. (Click on "HYDRA" below my name below this message)

But there are also others, like TAW Discord (well, for if you play taw), The Unofficial IL-2 GB Discord, Wings of liberty BoS Discord. (Links will expire 24 hours after this message is sent)

 

If you want people to play with, that is where to look first. 

 

BlackHellHound1

 

[[TWB]Sauerkraut-]

I've given up on TS3, it generally is outdated software. I used to check in consistently but the only thing I ever found was people speaking Russian.

 

I regularly check Discord, and I check TAW's discord every single time I get on. I never see anyone using Voice comms, not that it would matter b/c the "blue" and "red" channels are locked for me. Thanks for the links to the WoL discord and Sheriff's discord though, maybe I'll have better luck on those.

[Leon_Portier]

I´m hanging around the servers discord or ts3 where I play, mainly coconuts.

[E_Davjack]

Wouldn't it be neat if IL2 could implement a "Real Radio" service or mod like DCS? 

[NO_SQDeriku777]

33 minutes ago, EmerlistDavjack said:

Wouldn't it be neat if IL2 could implement a "Real Radio" service or mod like DCS? 

 

33 minutes ago, EmerlistDavjack said:

Wouldn't it be neat if IL2 could implement a "Real Radio" service or mod like DCS? 

If any game should be used as a great example of well done voice Comms it is the game Squad.  Multiple Squad channels and the Squad leads have their own channel.  Squads can be open or locked for invite and there are kick functions a viable to Squad Leads and mute abilities for all.  Seriously the Gold Standard for well implemented In-game Voice Comms.

[E_Davjack]

Squad does a really good job for the FPS gameplay, yes.  The question really is:  can IL2 make that part of their multiplayer server architecture?  If so, that would solve all the problems.  Log into the server, tune to the main Axis frequency, or to sub-frequencies for smaller groups.  It would feel more real, and allow teamwork.  I just don't know if that is something possible for the game.  It seems like it should be, if Squad servers are calculating all of the game and also relaying voice chat with no issue for 80 people. 

 

EDIT: This feature, if built in, would elevate IL2 above ALL other multiplayer flight sims.  And of course, any player who didn't want it could just switch off their radio in game.  That's a realistic way to "Go Maverick."

Edited October 3, 2018 by EmerlistDavjack

[ShamrockOneFive]

I'm having the same problems and have had the same thoughts. It's been only a few weeks since I started flying DCS MP using the SRS software that simulates realistic radio frequency control and its absolutely brilliant.

 

I recognize that not everyone wants to switch radio frequencies and use proper radio terminology but what I'd love to see...especially for servers like WoL is a one stop shop for voice comms. I don't care what it is...TS3, Discord, whatever, but I want to login and see at least half of the players on the server using it. This is one of those things that is not a 1CGS developer issue at all (I don't think they need to provide VOIP in-game as there are so many powerful options) and is more of a player community thing. We need to get behind something on this and it needs to be accessible, open, and something that more casual non-squad players can participate in.

 

I know squads have their own setups and that's all great but then they operate on their own and everyone else is doing their own thing too. Voice comms would elevate the whole team effort for sure.

[[CPT]milopugdog]

As the owner of one of the (main?) Discords, I think I can comment on what I think of this fairly well. One thing I've observed with my Discord is that while yes, there might be 150 people online, how many of those people are already playing IL-2 at the moment you are? After that, how many are on the same server, and the same team? Meanwhile, with TS3, the people online are already playing the game, and are online to fly with other people.

 

I'm not ashamed to admit that right now I view my server as a sort of forum-lite that is used for general banter about flight sims or life in general. It isn't inherently bad, it just wasn't my original intention. Encouraging VOIP activity is just one more thing to put on ye olde to-do-list, I guess.

[Lusekofte]

DCS MP users are more devoted in time and motivation than in this sim. 

I never flown longer than one hour in this sim online, I always used this as fast food, something fun for a while thing. I have no time for anything else. DCS is more time-consuming , same with COD. You simply won't spend all that time invain,  you team up  and plan better. Nothing negative about GB series, it is just how I think it is, designed for something else than DCS compared earlier

Edited October 3, 2018 by LuseKofte

[Guest deleted@83466]

I don't really see what point you are trying to make, LuseKofte.  You're a DCS guy...I think everyone gets that, because you mention it in just about every post.  There are lots of people on comms at any given time in IL-2, and after reading this thread through, I fail to see how a comparison with what is happening on comms in the DCS world is even relavent.  With all due respect to the OP,  it looks like he just didn't reach out enough to find the places where people are on comms.  But now he did reach out, in the form of this thread, so hopefully that's corrected now.

Edited October 3, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

5 hours ago, NO_SQDeriku777 said:

 

If any game should be used as a great example of well done voice Comms it is the game Squad.  Multiple Squad channels and the Squad leads have their own channel.  Squads can be open or locked for invite and there are kick functions a viable to Squad Leads and mute abilities for all.  Seriously the Gold Standard for well implemented In-game Voice Comms.

 

This is similar to how EveVoice was set up before they axed it.  Tiered communications with the ability to isolate channels or simulcast.

 

Never understood why so many corps insisted on Teamspeak and Mumble for fleet ops.

[Herne]

3 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

DCS MP users are more devoted in time and motivation than in this sim. 

I never flown longer than one hour in this sim online, I always used this as fast food, something fun for a while thing. I have no time for anything else. DCS is more time-consuming , same with COD. You simply won't spend all that time invain,  you team up  and plan better. Nothing negative about GB series, it is just how I think it is, designed for something else than DCS compared earlier

 

I've had some bomber sorties for LW on TAW that have lasted around the 1 hour 20 - 30 minute mark. Climbing to altitude, taking a very indirect and hopefully safe route to target etc. Not had a lot of exposure to DCS MP,  merely popped into burning skies server a couple of times solo to take a look.

 

6 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

I recognize that not everyone wants to switch radio frequencies and use proper radio terminology but what I'd love to see...especially for servers like WoL is a one stop shop for voice comms. I don't care what it is...TS3, Discord, whatever, but I want to login and see at least half of the players on the server using it. This is one of those things that is not a 1CGS developer issue at all (I don't think they need to provide VOIP in-game as there are so many powerful options) and is more of a player community thing. We need to get behind something on this and it needs to be accessible, open, and something that more casual non-squad players can participate in.

 

I used to play Aces High. It was a kind of WWII air combat mmo, but I seem to remember that had comms built in. think there was a local channel, which would be something like 10 miles, then you could tune to private / squad channels etc.

 

A local channel could work well for some ad hoc ATC, as well as for responding to calls for help. If you can hear it, you must be close. Certainly would not want it to take up too many server CPU cpu cycles though.

Edited October 3, 2018 by =FEW=Herne

[Lusekofte]

2 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

I don't really see what point you are trying to make, LuseKofte.  You're a DCS guy..

 

No I am not a DCS guy, I am a guy flown simulators since 1996 and run empty of interest . There is only one reason left for me to fly , and that is Historical feel to it. MP in GB series do not give that, neither does SP. And I am sure many DCS servers too. 

What I am at is there can not be a fair compare between DCS and GB. When it comes to organized flying. So just relax and cut your defensive position . I was not giving GB a critique 

[CountZero]

i dont know why its so complicated for some to fined people to play with, on WoL server most red players are at time i play on WoL ts3, and in one channel, some axis same. I stick separate from them as i wont to, but if i wont to play with them i would just join them and play with them, it works in here like it was in clod. 

 

In game radio i think would be nice but you would again have same problem, if people realy wont to coordinate and be on coms they now have more then enought options, so its not like you cant coordinate with other random players, most likely is they just dont wont to coordinate with you and stick to thir squad ts3 or discorts, and in game radio would not change that they would just ban rest or mute, also i dont think this game could handle something like that with poor netcode it has it cant even handle in game stats when theirs more then 40ppl( that was waist of their time)

 

also i had seen randoms joining ts3 and expect othrs will adapt to way of gameplay they wont to do, it doesent work like that with most people on ts3. If your new to that group of people oncoms you need to adapt to way they do coms and they play in game, and thats not for everybody, so thats why its good to try differant group of people on ts3 and see what guys play it your way, not everyone plays the game same way.

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by 77.CountZero

[LeLv76_Erkki]

3 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

What I am at is there can not be a fair compare between DCS and GB. When it comes to organized flying. So just relax and cut your defensive position . I was not giving GB a critique 

 

I think there are many more in Il-2 who either dont speak English or play with people from their countries or their old friends. Larger playerbase and communities that go back all the way to 1990s and the dawn of flight simulations does that. I see plenty of very organized flying both on df servers and on TAW.

 

You just need to need to find a community to play with or migrate between TS and discords depending on server and time you play.

[Lusekofte]

Yeah but there is a demand in Blueflag, if you are operating from carriers you have to use comms. The demand from server owners, the time it takes to get into air and battle. The fact that unsupported you are basically bate and in your way to waste time make DCS more organized, I never said better. GB got some serious servers, but there is no big collective coms in use, many fly without it and alone with less penalty

[CountZero]

just now on taw ts3, if your alone there your at disadvantage so normaly people fly together, not forced by game or server but by gameplay it self:

 

 

JG4 guys are frendly group and speek english, not hard to join them and play with them their way, when i played sow in clod i didnt know who they are but we played campaigns on axis side so with time i just join them on ts3 and played with them in 109s or ju88s and no problem if you dont bather them and just try to cooperate

[JonRedcorn]

The game needs ingame voip. Would add a ton of gameplay enhancement to the online portion.

[blitze]

3 hours ago, 15th_JonRedcorn said:

The game needs ingame voip. Would add a ton of gameplay enhancement to the online portion.

 

In the mean time if I go online, I will stick with chat.  Given up on VC.  If you want to team up with flyers, then hang at the more populated air fields and then tag along when a group goes out on a mission.  I do that with a fighter and sometimes, after initially doing that and providing use for the other pilots in the combat area, they are more incline to start comms with you.

[SharpeXB]

In-game voice would be great. I think the 3rd party programs are too difficult or time consuming to use. You have to figure out which group to be on before launching the game. Maybe there’s some in game overlay but people won’t know how that works. TS3 isn’t very user friendly and I don’t even know what Discord is. The difficulty of dealing with it won’t be worth the effort because nobody will be on. 

[E_Davjack]

I've known many gamers who will use in game VOIP but will never bother to use TS.  It would make IL2 a prestige flight sim.  Integrate it into the game in a smart way, and reviewers will notice, players will notice.  Imagine a guy buys Tank Crew, because he likes tanking, but he can also hop into the back seat of a bomber and gun while talking to the pilot, without having to be on TS, alt-tab, look up the pilot, etc etc.  Or a CAS pilot, on the fly, switches to the Tanker frequency and requests targets.

 

I think it would be a great addition for the release of Bodenplatte.  They'd have time to implement, and Bodenplatte is going to be bringing a lot of American simmers to take a look at IL2 who simply don't care about the Ostfront.   What an excellent time to have a shiny new feature that draws even more people into buying the game. 

Edited October 4, 2018 by EmerlistDavjack
reasons

[NO_SQDeriku777]

46 minutes ago, EmerlistDavjack said:

I've known many gamers who will use in game VOIP but will never bother to use TS.  It would make IL2 a prestige flight sim.  Integrate it into the game in a smart way, and reviewers will notice, players will notice.  Imagine a guy buys Tank Crew, because he likes tanking, but he can also hop into the back seat of a bomber and gun while talking to the pilot, without having to be on TS, alt-tab, look up the pilot, etc etc.  Or a CAS pilot, on the fly, switches to the Tanker frequency and requests targets.

 

I think it would be a great addition for the release of Bodenplatte.  They'd have time to implement, and Bodenplatte is going to be bringing a lot of American simmers to take a look at IL2 who simply don't care about the Ostfront.   What an excellent time to have a shiny new feature that draws even more people into buying the game. 

The arrival of Discord created terrible fragmentation of voice Comms since many of the IL-2 old timers stick with Teamspeak.  Discord does not handle whispers and inter-channel comms which means it is useless for large scale coordinated operations.  To boot the damn Discord overlay no longer works with IL-2 and the Teamspeak overlay is hard to set up if you are not IT savvy..  In game comms will reduce a lot of friction associated with figuring which damn server to use for voice comms.  If they implement it with Squad style channel locking options and issued session invites you will see squadrons allowing more "guests" to fly with them since they don't have to worry about giving up their TS password to a complete stranger who could be a decent person or turn out to be an asshat or a troll.  Plus it makes drop-in COOP missions easy to organize and coordinate.  COOP in this game is REALLY awesome and in game comms would make it even more so.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Discord also only allows one to be on a single voice channel at once, and since voice and chat channels are separate its impossible to share to a link to say mission briefing to the voice channel members only. Also no logs on whos joined or left, no file folder, no recording, "created for gamers, by gamers" my butt

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

A recent update to ts about a month ago caused constant crashes for me.  I have been neglecting hopping on comms but I'll be lurking arround on discord tonight and this weekend if anyone wants a noob wingman or some cover.  I usually just used comms with one of my friends but he's in school now and is too busy learning how to fly real planes than to hop on il2 lately.  I agree though it would be awesome to have ingame comms for all of the reasons you guys stated.  I use to listen to music when I flew and therefore didnt use comms but lately I've noticed I tend to survive more sorties if the tunes are off so maybe the next step is to find some people to fly with.  

Edited October 4, 2018 by Joeasyrida

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

On 10/3/2018 at 7:25 PM, EmerlistDavjack said:

I've known many gamers who will use in game VOIP but will never bother to use TS.  It would make IL2 a prestige flight sim.  Integrate it into the game in a smart way, and reviewers will notice, players will notice.  Imagine a guy buys Tank Crew, because he likes tanking, but he can also hop into the back seat of a bomber and gun while talking to the pilot, without having to be on TS, alt-tab, look up the pilot, etc etc.  Or a CAS pilot, on the fly, switches to the Tanker frequency and requests targets.

 

I think it would be a great addition for the release of Bodenplatte.  They'd have time to implement, and Bodenplatte is going to be bringing a lot of American simmers to take a look at IL2 who simply don't care about the Ostfront.   What an excellent time to have a shiny new feature that draws even more people into buying the game. 

 

This would be a useful feature to roll out with Air Marshal mode.

[Eclipse4349]

On 10/2/2018 at 1:16 PM, itsthatguy said:

When you have people to fly with, even the most mundane things can be fun. Unfortunately, it just seems like no one playing Il2 MP wants to do that. I've considered joining a squad, but as a college student I simply don't have the time to fly with people on a consistent schedule.

Having other like-minded people to fly with does make a big difference. I have recently started flying with a few casual groups, and it has been great.

 

Feel free to PM me for Discord info. I'm in the eastern US timezone, and it's been meshing well. The 3 groups have varying amounts of organization, and none take anything too seriously, none are rigid or only fly x aircraft or anything like that. And the groups overlap, we've had several from each all flying in a cooperative campaign, flying missions in Coconut's or WoL, and I know several in each group are in  the current TAW campaign also. I've registered but haven't flown in it yet. 

[ACG_KaiLae]

On 10/3/2018 at 2:27 AM, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

This is similar to how EveVoice was set up before they axed it.  Tiered communications with the ability to isolate channels or simulcast.

 

Never understood why so many corps insisted on Teamspeak and Mumble for fleet ops.

 

As someone who was in most of those fleets for nearly 10 years, it's because if your client crashed (which in heavy TiDi is a thing that happens, and was routine before it was introduced) you're screwed. Especially a FC, because poof, he's gone, and can't even transfer duties to an alternate. The voice client is tied to the game client so when one goes so does the other. 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

1 hour ago, No.615_Kai_Lae said:

 

As someone who was in most of those fleets for nearly 10 years, it's because if your client crashed (which in heavy TiDi is a thing that happens, and was routine before it was introduced) you're screwed. Especially a FC, because poof, he's gone, and can't even transfer duties to an alternate. The voice client is tied to the game client so when one goes so does the other. 

 

That's true.  We did mostly small gang, with fleets up to 30, so running into time dilated battles was never an issue.

 

But you still had smaller outfits like ours insisting on TS and mumble for even the most trivial of roams.

[Inkophile]

We really need channel-based communication, and TS3 alone is unfortunately no good answer, since one has to set up whisper lists, and Channel Commander if at all having permissions for that. Discord of course doesn't solve it either.

 

What is needed is either a mod or native in-game communication based around selectable channels (say 10-20 channels per side) so that it is easy to coordinate people into preset channels. Somewhat akin to the radio mod for DCS.

 

If the game would allow jacking into its sound engine something like a TS3 plugin could be used, like in the ACRE mod for ArmA, where everyone is in the same channel in TS3, but they can only hear the people on their own channel/frequency. In ArmA it was done by hijacking an unused DirectX DLL file, but not sure if that option exists for IL-2. Of course this option also requires someone kind'a skilled in programming to write it.

[falle96]

It's funny you mentioned that, Ink, because I was wondering if anyone had made a radio mod a la ACRE or DCS's radio mod (I don't know the name off the top of my head, sorry) for IL-2.

[OrLoK]

if il2 had built in comms I'd use it but I'll rarely bother with voice if I have to use a 3rd party product.

[216th_Jordan]

Well from the theoretical POV an ingame VOIP would surely solve these problems by a big part. The problem is that external comms introduce a barrier and they are split up into different groups and technologies (TS and Discord).

 

I too want to have the ability to log onto a server and be able to fly with people on a regular base without needing to be with the squad mates. Right now whenever I do that I am either alone or there are people whose language I dont speak and sometimes a few people even come together I can fly with, but that is maybe 10% of the time max. An ingame VOIP would lower that batrier drastically and solve the splitting up problem by large.

 

On the practical side I can see that such a technologie would likely be a pain in the ass for developers as such an implementation requires new tech and functionalities and additional development resources. For a game that is not a mainly MMOG it probably is not very likely to be important enough to employ a major development for VOIP from a financial POV.

[E_Davjack]

The crux for me is whether or not they would have to write it into their servers/netcode from scratch, or if they could purchase/license an existing VOIP and work it into their server code.  Each would have certain costs, for sure, but unlike an MMORPG, 1CG is not paying for the additional server/bandwidth to run the VOIP.  That is handled by private servers. 

 

As for economics?  I believe that it would add a level of prestige and be worth the cost in the long run.  Maybe one of these third-party partners could handle it?  I wouldn't want them to cut 2 planes from BOBP in order to get it done, though.

Edited October 11, 2018 by EmerlistDavjack
reasons

[Guest deleted@83466]

I still don't understand what's so great about an in-game comms system versus any of the external comms systems we already have.  It's pretty darned rare that I ever just jump into some comms channel with a bunch of strangers that I don't know, unless I at least know somebody..and honestly I don't really like it when complete strangers jump on comms into the group of people I fly with; in some cases it's downright annoying.  But if I did want that, it would be easy to find places where there are people on comms.  So what's such the big deal about having an built in comms system compared to the other things that are already widely in use?

Edited October 11, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Try reading the thread.  People have explained it many times.

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

Try reading the thread.  People have explained it many times.

 

Just re-read it, not once, but twice over, gameboy.  I still see no convincing reason to have built-in comms.  It takes 2 seconds to install and learn how to use TS, and I don't see any need for everyone in the world who is playing IL-2 to be in an integrated system.  The only current barrier to comms is people's willingness to use what they already have.  If you want a full on radio simulation, tuning frequencies and stuff, fine, but if the only reason people want integrated comms is just for some convenience sake, so they don't have to google a Teamspeak channel, or their Chi is out of balance because not everybody's on the same system, then I'm not convinced.

Edited October 11, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

Lol the game cant handle ingame voip..
Dserver already struggles now to run a 84 player server and stay stable

not to mention almost all the ingame voip options are terrible.
For people who want to fly together they will use Teamspeak or Discord.

If someone can't be bothered downloading and installing 1 of those 2 programs is that someone you really want to fly with.
"Come help me cover these tanks" -
" Oh really they are like 50km away i think thats too much work"

[Lusekofte]

I had a temporary assignment with the 216th, and we used Discord. It was really fun and even better than TS 3. You could hear the comms a lot better over the game noise. I think people flying regular gain a lot to their experience to join a group. I still fly FnBf when I can. It bring a lot of realism flying for the interest of the group instead of own