Documentaries about Richthofen's death

[sturmkraehe]

I just watched another documentary about how Richthofen possibly could have killed and by whom. Apart from the value to historians to know what exactly happened at that day I always find it weird to say the least how these documentaries deal with the question "who shot Richthofen?" A man died and they present it like if it had been a fox hunt and it's now important to hand out the winner's trophy like one hands out a winner's trophy to an athlet ... I don't know but for me its on the border of tastelessness.

[FuriousMeow]

It's a mystery, no one knows for certain so it's constantly re-analyzed to understand what happened. It's like the flight of TBFs that disappeared - many say UFOs, Bermuda triangle, etc but not a single person has an absolute on it.

 

So it's a curiousity - it's not the way he died that is being paraded around, it's just who did it and how did it happen.

 

You do know there are murder mystery shows? Even if fiction they would still be tastless by your definition.

[Sternjaeger]

I don't think we will ever know, Richtofen had become a god, and to be completely fair the "trophy game" was common on both ends: Richtofen himself collected bits and bobs of most of the aircraft he had shot down. 

 

The only way to know for certain would be to have forensic details on the fatal bullet in his body, although I'm inclined to believe that, considering the angle of his wound, he was surely killed by ground fire, and the RAF claim was bogus. It doesn't surprise me though that they all wanted to claim his killing, the propaganda on the event was immense.

 

In a way it was a collaborative job, much like a fox chase really, hence the similitude, which again doesn't surprise me, they were different times..

Edited February 3, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[sturmkraehe]

Don't get me wrong: That people felt that way back then that can be attributed to the circumstances. It's been the enemy that killed a lot of one' own people. It's this bit of sensationalistic trophy distribution so many decades after the event that bugs me. 

 

It's ok that they want to solve the mystery. Perhaps it had not been so clear: It's the way it is done. One easily has the impression that this stuff is presented still with a 1917 mood and with the purpose to attribute the "honor" (in its genuine meaning) to who has killed him. My impression is these docs go beyond the mere information hunting.

Edited February 3, 2014 by sturmkraehe

[Sternjaeger]

is it a British documentary by any chance?

[sturmkraehe]

Probably. There are a couple of them in the same line. All of them from the "anglo-saxon" world. 

[DD_bongodriver]

Oh god here we go.

[DD_Arthur]

 A man died and they present it like if it had been a fox hunt and it's now important to hand out the winner's trophy like one hands out a winner's trophy to an athlet ... I don't know but for me its on the border of tastelessness.

 

You do realise that Richtofen treated his war as one big trophy hunt, don't you?  The analogy to hunting animals would have been one he would have understood - and appreciated - precisely.

 

In the end the demands of German propaganda killed him.

[Sternjaeger]

Probably. There are a couple of them in the same line. All of them from the "anglo-saxon" world. 

 

It is no news that some British-made documentaries had a vein of propganda/nostalgia to it, I don't think it's intentional, it's just the way it is..

 

You do realise that Richtofen treated his war as one big trophy hunt, don't you?  The analogy to hunting animals would have been one he would have understood - and appreciated - precisely.

 

In the end the demands of German propaganda killed him.

 

Well it was actually Richtofen that killed Richtofen: he had repeatedly been asked to stop flying on the grounds of his health problems and because of his propaganda value. 

[Feathered_IV]

He certainly liked his killing. Lord knows what sort of psychopath he'd have been if it wasn't for the war. Or what misery he would have contributed to in the next one, had he survived.

 

Just my two cents from the "Anglo-Saxon" world.

[Sternjaeger]

Have you guys actually ever read anything about Manfred Von Richthofen? I mean, defining him a psychopath is ludicrous..

Edited February 4, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[FuriousMeow]

I've read a lot about Richthofen, and one of the things that stuck out the most was how much he loathed the Albatros DV and it's performance relative to the scouts of the day on the Entente side (the Sopwith Tripe, Camel, SPAD and how they were much better aircraft than the Albatros and more of them as well). Mostly that sticks out because if you go to the RoF forums you'll see so many vehmently stating how great the Albatros DV or DVa is in real life and how terrible it is modelled in RoF, and how it should be able to run away/BnZ and outdive the same aircraft listed above - but a direct complaint about how inferior the aircraft was destroys those notions. He even stated they were lousy and how no new aircraft had come out for a year, and that's Germany's top WWI ace.

 

So that was the most interesting thing I've read, because if you go to the RoF forums, the DV and DVa are stated to have been great aircraft that should have been able to outrun/outdive/BnZ the Camel and Tripe but by Richthofen's own accord it was a lousy aircraft that was outperformed by them and even outnumbered by them.

 

As far as being a psychopath, well we all know that he aimed for the pilot but so did they all. That or the engine, but everything sat in the same small area on those small matchstick aircraft. I've never seen a notion from him that he enjoyed striking or killing the pilot's, most of the time an observatory statement that the pilot or observer appeared wounded or were no longer visible in the cockpit because they were seriously wounded but certainly nothing like his brother (Lothar), or other pilots from either WWI or WWII that certainly had a stated bloodlust whether they actually carried it out or not. Certainly never a statement that indicated he enjoyed it.

 

So yes, I have read a lot - I don't know why you went with the plural accusatory statement there when only one person made that statement.

Edited February 4, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[Sternjaeger]

it wasn't referred to you FuriousMeow, it was more of a generic remark. It's not the first time I hear Von Richthofen being defined a psychopath, which is one of the most ignorant things to say about the man, since there is a whole personal, human and social aspect that is totally disregarded.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[DD_bongodriver]

What.....like Dexter?

[Sternjaeger]

that made me LOL

[Feathered_IV]

I guess it's all conjecture really, seeing as he didn't see the end of the war. Who can say for certain what sort of man he'd have become. His description of hunting his fellow man as sport, having them for breakfast as he said. Wrapping himself in the trophies and debris of the men he killed. Sleeping every night among this catalogue of slaughter... Just my two cents, but to me this speaks a lot about the man. His lack of empathy, vanity and need for affirmation do tend to fit the profile of a fellow who really isn't quite right, if you know what I mean.

[Rama]

His description of hunting his fellow man as sport, having them for breakfast as he said. Wrapping himself in the trophies and debris of the men he killed.

This description could fit with almost all the fighter aces of WWI... probably on all sides.

In French, fighter translate in "chasseur" (Hunter). If you want some description of some french aces by Jacques Mortane (WWI aviation reporter):

- Fonk: methodical and precise hunter, leaving nothing to chance

- Nungesser: The sportman, who once in a battle allways always wanted to go beyond what he bet to accomplish

- Dorme: The avenger, ambitious to charge the enemy the suffering of his parents invaded territory

- Navarre: The prodigious virtuoso, striving according to his expression, "strangle" his opponent

- Guynemer: The knight of the air, darkening when he saw a prey. He performed aerial close combat, and furious, remained attached to its target at close range. When he returned to base, most often the victor, he was pale, hard eye, foaming at the mouth, as the beast who has just delivered a terrible battle.

- etc....

All of them were collecting trophies and debris... and spended quite some time to collect them.

[Feathered_IV]

I reckon you're right.  There's certainly a pattern there. 

[Sternjaeger]

we are talking about a very young man (he died at 25!), coming from a noble Prussian family (with all the pressure and indoctrination of the case), who already experienced first hand the horrors of trench warfare, and whose dedicated and apparently ruthless attitude was seriously changed by his accident he had during his career. 

 

Besides, do you think that the Entente pilots were less bloodthirsty? It was a war, men killed each other on the ground and in the air, with little or no time for compassion.. 

[DD_bongodriver]

we are talking about a very young man (he died at 25!), coming from a noble Prussian family (with all the pressure and indoctrination of the case), who already experienced first hand the horrors of trench warfare, and whose dedicated and apparently ruthless attitude was seriously changed by his accident he had during his career.

 

A fairly unremarkable story to be honest, Richtofen earned his place in history by being the most efficient killer of them all.

[Sternjaeger]

A fairly unremarkable story to be honest, Richtofen earned his place in history by being the most efficient killer of them all.

 

I don't get what you mean. 

[Feathered_IV]

I couldn't say if Entente pilots were less or more bloodthirsty.  Certainly I can think of some very callous behaviour from some.  Perhaps that's not really the issue here though.  My original post was that I did not think MVR was a man of healthy mind (even before he got a bullet through it).  I wondered how he'd have fared in peacetime with his hunting lust, need for thrills and adulation, coupled with a taciturn nature and what might have been a no great ease with women.   I also wondered what his politics might have been and to what extent he would have thrown his lot in with Herr Hitler.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Feathered_IV

[DD_bongodriver]

Let's not forget that when he got that bullet through his mind  he also got a ticket out of the war but refused, the lure of more killing had a greater appeal.

[Sternjaeger]

Come on! He was an ambitious 20-odd years old kid who learned fast to be the best in his business, I don't understand this double standard of him being a bloodthirsty killer and the others being just fighter pilots doing their job (cos that's what you seem to imply here).. I think that other than his aerial victories, he should be remembered for the fact that he was a superb tactician, a skilled aviator and a visionary who changed the rules of combat, majority of which are still valid today.

 

Besides, if we had to apply the same thinking, what should one think of Douglas Bader then? Who in his sane mind would fly a military aircraft with prosthetic legs? Was he a bloodthirsty killer too?

[DD_bongodriver]

Besides, if we had to apply the same thinking, what should one think of Douglas Bader then? Who in his sane mind would fly a military aircraft with prosthetic legs? Was he a bloodthirsty killer too?

 

A weak comparison, Bader lost his legs before he had a chance to do any killing, his personal challenge was to simply be able to fly again, the fact he became an ace despite having fake legs was pretty impressive.

[DD_bongodriver]

 I don't understand this double standard of him being a bloodthirsty killer and the others being just fighter pilots doing their job (cos that's what you seem to imply here).. I think that other than his aerial victories, he should be remembered for the fact that he was a superb tactician, a skilled aviator and a visionary who changed the rules of combat, majority of which are still valid today.

 

He very much is remembered for all those things among many other of the time and who followed, no double standards being applied at all, they were all blood thirsty, the whole affair of military flying got turned into a sport, nothing like it had been seen before and it captured imaginations.

[Sternjaeger]

A weak comparison, Bader lost his legs before he had a chance to do any killing, his personal challenge was to simply be able to fly again, the fact he became an ace despite having fake legs was pretty impressive.

 

well he could have kept on flying a different role, you should know he insisted on going back onto fighters.. but then I'm sure you know his story quite well.

 

I'm not saying his achievements weren't impressive, I'm only saying that one could also see in Bader's stubbornness an uncommon blood thirst.. or perhaps accept the fact that, no matter what country they fought for, they wanted to do their job and they wanted to do it well.

[DD_bongodriver]

Like many young men of the time, they wanted to play a part, Bader was no different.

 

Besides, Bader was also an arrogant 'A**hole' and I have no desire to deny that fact.

Edited February 4, 2014 by DD_bongodriver

[MiloMorai]

 no matter what country they fought for, they wanted to do their job and they wanted to do it well.

 

Must use that when Beurling is diced.

[DD_Arthur]

I hate to say this but, I think that a great many of those that became successful became so because of, and not in spite of, their arrogance, aggression, lack of empathy etc.

 

 

 I think thats completely true.  Quite what the OP's intentions were seems to have been lost now but I can see where this will be going.  The speculation on what would have become of Richtofen if he had survived is interesting.  No doubt sometime in the autumn of 1934 he would have been encouraged to "write" a memoir on his experiences, full of inserted nationalism, exortations to the youth of inter-war Germany and a small dose of anti-semitism for good measure.

 

@ Mr. Furious; I think you're being slightly disingenuous to the critics of the RoF flight model.  I'd say the majority of the members of the RoF forum recognize shortcomings in the performance of certain - but not all - planes in that excellent sim.  So do the devs btw.  The problem is more to do with when they will be fixed.

 

 You are quite right, Richtofen and many others were disappointed by the performance of the Albi DVa.  It did not herald a significant enough performance improvement over the all-conquering DIII.  After re-establishing their dominance over the western front in the spring of 1917, by the autumn the Jastas were faced by a newer range of allied scouts like the SE5a - which was faster than the Albi DVa - and the Camel, which had a remarkable turn performance over German fighters.

 

 The problems many of us have with RoF's interpretation of the air war are broadly three-fold;  a confusion in the modelling of which variant of engine fitted to German scouts.  In particular this effects the performance of Germanys wonder fighter - the Fokker DVII.  Also, the Albi series as modelled in RoF might be described as having too benign a flight model.  Try stalling an Albi DV or DIII or even try putting one into a spin!

 Finally the Camel and to some extent the Sopworth Pup too.  They are simply too fast.  What we know of allied pilot accounts is that the Camel was a terrific dogfighter, which was just as well as once entering a fight it was extremely difficult to disengage as the Camel could not outpace the DVa in a straight line.

 

Thats simply not how it is in RoF.  This does have an effect on online play. 

[Rama]

The speculation on what would have become of Richtofen if he had survived is interesting.

Yes... would he have collaborated with or opposed Göring?

My guess is that he would have tried some politic, then written his memoir, then have a kind of unnofficial function at Berlin, been a hero of a propaganda movie, etc... a bit Like René Fonk did on the French side...

[DD_bongodriver]

Was Richtofen's cousin a party member?

[Sternjaeger]

Yes... would he have collaborated with or opposed Göring?

My guess is that he would have tried some politic, then written his memoir, then have a kind of unnofficial function at Berlin, been a hero of a propaganda movie, etc... a bit Like René Fonk did on the French side...

 

I think that, had he survived WW1, he would have been the undiscussed aviation god, and the commanding role of the Luftwaffe would have been his, provided he liked the idea of working for the little Austrian psycho... It would be interesting to know more about Udet, I wonder what happened in his last years..

Must use that when Beurling is diced.

 

You see, this is the point: I think Beurling was a phenomenal pilot (who again was truly shocked when he witnessed first hand the effect of his guns on the enemy), and no matter what side they fought for, one has to acknowledge the aviator, not the country he fought for. 

 

Saburo Sakai was another undiscussed superb fighter, the fact he fought for the Japanese doesn't make him any less of a fighting hero.. I still remember this vivid image from his biography when he was trying to climb to intercept bombers who were too high and fast, and he screamed impotently whilst shooting his guns, realising he would have never reached them. 

 

I don't think that we can fully comprehend what these experiences did to your life and persona.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[Bearcat]

A fairly unremarkable story to be honest, Richtofen earned his place in history by being the most efficient killer of them all.

 

I'd say that place was earned more so by the fact that the theater of death was an entirely new one to begin with.. Men were not fighting and killing and dieing in the air before WWI.. that was made his particular skill set so special and earned him his place in history.

 

well he could have kept on flying a different role, you should know he insisted on going back onto fighters.. but then I'm sure you know his story quite well.

 

I'm not saying his achievements weren't impressive, I'm only saying that one could also see in Bader's stubbornness an uncommon blood thirst.. or perhaps accept the fact that, no matter what country they fought for, they wanted to do their job and they wanted to do it well.

 

It was more basic than that .. Bud Anderson said it best.. "There is a guy upo there trying to kill you and you are going to do your best to kill him first.."

 

I hate to say this but, I think that a great many of those that became successful became so because of, and not in spite of, their arrogance, aggression, lack of empathy etc.

These traits can clearly be seen in business today too.

In fact it's well documented that there is an uncommon proportion of psychopaths that rise to the top of big business.

 

I agree.. but I wouldn't use the term psychopath in the case of MVR .. Consider again .. that this was all new..  I can only imagine the rush of fighting for your life and coming out victorious time and time again.. and considering the way that nationalism was back then.. I think there wer more factors than just bloodlust coming into play ..

[unreasonable]

On the subject of slightly barking WW1 German heroes, another interesting case is Ernst Junger, writer of "Storm of Steel" one of the "must read" books about the experience of being in combat and basically loving it. He was an extreme nationalist who distrusted democracy but never supported the Nazis despite having the usual anti-Semitic views common at the time.

 

MvR would probably have found Hitler's lot all rather common, but gone along with the programme like most of the aristocratic army officers while trying not to get his hands too dirty himself.

 

Lots of people have some psychopathic tendencies (extreme self centredness, lack of empathy, enjoyment of the use of power to make others suffer), you only have to work in management in any large organization to see it in action. Really only the loser psychopaths end up vivisecting cats, or people for that matter, the smart ones end up running Fortune 500 companies. I do not think it is unfair to see some of this in MvR, it really is pretty common.

[Rama]

I think that, had he survived WW1, he would have been the undiscussed aviation god, and the commanding role of the Luftwaffe would have been his,

I very doubt of this.... Remember Goering was aside Hitler in the very early days of Nazism (1922). In 1935, I don't think he would have left the Luftwaffe to anyone else.

[Rama]

On the subject of slightly barking WW1 German heroes, another interesting case is Ernst Junger, writer of "Storm of Steel" one of the "must read" books about the experience of being in combat and basically loving it.

Yes, that's probably the best book I have ever read about the Trench everyday warfare.

It wasn't really that he was loving combats... but more that he felt unadapted when in the "civilian" world during his recovering from his numerous wounds. He felt "more adapted" in the Trenches, describing them as he was a naturalist describing the environment (and that's exactly what he did later in some of his other books).

 

BTW: he wasn't anti-semitic... he even resigned from his veteran club when he learned that the Jude have been excluded from the club.

[Sternjaeger]

I very doubt of this.... Remember Goering was aside Hitler in the very early days of Nazism (1922). In 1935, I don't think he would have left the Luftwaffe to anyone else.

 

Mmmh Göring became famous only because of his involvement in the Flying Circus, if Richthofen was still around I doubt he'd have received the same level of attention.. I mean yes, he was a slimy brown nose, which Richthofen surely wasn't and I think it would have been more a clash of egos with AH that would have jeopardised the possible collaboration.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[unreasonable]

Yes, that's probably the best book I have ever read about the Trench everyday warfare.

It wasn't really that he was loving combats... but more that he felt unadapted when in the "civilian" world during his recovering from his numerous wounds. He felt "more adapted" in the Trenches, describing them as he was a naturalist describing the environment (and that's exactly what he did later in some of his other books).

 

BTW: he wasn't anti-semitic... he even resigned from his veteran club when he learned that the Jude have been excluded from the club.

From wiki:

 

In 1927, he moved to Berlin. In 1929, his work The Adventurous Heart (German title: Das abenteuerliche Herz) was published. In Über Nationalismus und Judenfrage (1930, On Nationalism and the Jewish Question) Jünger describes Jews as a threat to the unity of Germans, and recommends either assimilation or emigration to Palestine. The article appeared as part of a symposium on the Jewish Question in the Suddeutsche Monatshefte, in which many Jewish authors participated, and whose editor, Paul Nikolaus Cossmann, was also Jewish.[12]

 

No big deal, I am not saying he wanted them all gassed or anything, just that he shared some of the prejudices of his time and place as you would expect.

 

Very intelligent man, great writer.

Edited February 4, 2014 by unreasonable

[FuriousMeow]

@ Mr. Furious; I think you're being slightly disingenuous to the critics of the RoF flight model.  I'd say the majority of the members of the RoF forum recognize shortcomings in the performance of certain - but not all - planes in that excellent sim.  So do the devs btw.  The problem is more to do with when they will be fixed.

 

 

 

I've seen the arguments put forth by the critics, and grasping at straws is all they've done with the DVa. First it was the airfoil, then it was the wrong prop because no way is the most common top speed that's cited everywhere correct which is modelled in RoF and it's one rare speed that's ten MPH faster has to be the right one because - no reason but it just has to be. Additionally they constantly refer to pilot anecdotes, supposedly, and even go at the most common clutch of straws - "but if it was so bad, then why was it the most common and massed produced?" argument that makes little sense when politics are involved. The man with the most victories in any airforce in WWI said himself the plane was terrible comparatively, while the critics state the reverse saying it should be better than the SPAD, Camel and Tripe when anecdotally it's stated clear as day it wasn't.

Edited February 4, 2014 by FuriousMeow