MiG3 on fire but no damage gets done?

[LLv24_Radar]

Now a few times during TAW I've shot a MiG3 to burst into flames, but it seems like the flames have 0 effect on the plane or the pilot. No damage is registered to being caused to neither one. Is there a simple explanation to this, as every time I get shot ablaze my pilot and plane start taking damage. In the video clip the MiG flies for 13 seconds on fire before exhausting it in a dive but nothing happens.  Both times this has happened the MiG has flown several minutes back to base and landed.

 

 

[=FSB=Man-Yac]

I remember you typing about this in taw chat. I have been on fire and managed to extinguish it a couple of times but I remember taking damage from the fire.

Edited September 24, 2018 by =FSB=Man-Yac
mistake

[=RvE=Windmills]

The Mig3 wing is on fire, the pilot would not be taking damage. If it's extinguished before structural damage occurs he should be fine.

 

6 hours ago, LLv24_Radar said:

Is there a simple explanation to this, as every time I get shot ablaze my pilot and plane start taking damage.

 

If you mean when flying only 109 then yes, the only thing to be on fire for the 109 is the engine and that will kill your pilot quickly. I don't think any other part of the 109 burns.

[Finkeren]

Seems perfectly logical to me. A fuel leak fire happens on the outside of the plane, certainly doing damage over time, but not necesarilly anything fatal. The fuel tanks themselves won’t ignite because of the inert gas system found on most Soviet fighters. If the pilot manages to put out the fire in a dive, there is no reason why he shouldn’t be able to fly  on with nothing more than a fuel leak.

 

Of course, if the fire spreads to the inside of the aircraft, that’s when you’re in trouble. Engine fires are much, much worse, and I’d usually bail out as soon as I discovered an engine fire.

[Cpt_Siddy]

1 hour ago, Windmills said:

The Mig3 wing is on fire, the pilot would not be taking damage. If it's extinguished before structural damage occurs he should be fine.

 

 

If you mean when flying only 109 then yes, the only thing to be on fire for the 109 is the engine and that will kill your pilot quickly. I don't think any other part of the 109 burns.

 

The whole 109 burns, its made of high content magnesium duraluminum (<0.7%). If that thing catches fire, it will go on like a torch. If there is damage to structure and the oxide layer get stripped, with added heat and the things catches fire, the 109's structure will turn in to wet tissue paper in no time. 

 

In short, fire in 109 is almost always fatal. Fire on some delta wood section of soviet plane, while dangerous, presents less structural failure risk in short term. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[LeLv76_Erkki]

In the MiG-3, the two wing fuel tanks as well as the fuselage tank are between steel tubing covered by duraluminum, similar to most ww2 fighters. I dont think MiG-3 has the inert gas injection system. edit: it has, at least for the fuselage tank.

 

When the wing is on fire the pilot doesnt suffer. If the fire goes out without catastrophic damage yes he can fly home(in game anyway).

Edited September 24, 2018 by LeLv76_Erkki

[LLv24_Radar]

Hmm yes good points, still wondering how (even if only a fuel fire outside of the engine/frame) it doesn’t cause structural damage to the wing etc? If the guy is on fire for 13 seconds you’d think there is some damage done to the wing structure right? First time this happened the guy was on fire for half a minute while evading me, didn’t continue shooting cause obviously seeing that long fire I thought he was doomed.

1st log (KOHAH on fire for at least half a minute as I was behind him)

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=16312&name=LLv24_Radar

 

2nd log (seen on video)

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=21688&name=LLv24_Radar

[Finkeren]

You have to keep in mind, that in case of a burning fuel leak it’s actually not the wing itself that is on fire, but fuel vapor burning in the air right next to the wing. It will char the very surface of the wing to be sure, but structural damage will only occur, if the surface material of the wing catches fire itself. Sure, a fuel fire could potentially ignite the material of the wing itself, but it is far less likely with winds of hundreds of km/h blowing over the surface. Delta wood, which most of the MiGs wing is made of, is actually not easy to set fire to and I would definitely say, that 13 seconds is far too short time for the fuel fire to set the wing itself ablaze, let alone do structural damage. 13 seconds is barely enough to burn through a matchstick, which is made of far more flammable wood. 

 

The one part of the wing that actually is very succeptible to fire damage would be the fabric covered aileron. That would burn through quite fast, if the fire got close to it. I don’t know if it’s worth it to model control surface damage for planes with fabric covered ailerons for those few instances, where a pilot actually manages to put out the fire rather than bail out.

4 hours ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

I dont think MiG-3 has the inert gas injection system. edit: it has, at least for the fuselage tank.

 

Early production MiGs didn’t have it, but the late production model we have, does. You can actually see it. The small tubes visible right above the exhaust stacks on the left side are used to drain exhaust fumes for the system.

5 hours ago, Windmills said:

 

If you mean when flying only 109 then yes, the only thing to be on fire for the 109 is the engine and that will kill your pilot quickly. I don't think any other part of the 109 burns.

 

I’m pretty sure the 109 can suffer fuel tank fires as well, but since the pilot sits right on top of the tank, it’s not really good news for him.

[=RvE=Windmills]

I don't recall 109 fuselage tanks ever igniting, it always seemed to be engine fires. Might be misremembering though.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Windmills

[Cpt_Siddy]

9 hours ago, LLv24_Radar said:

Hmm yes good points, still wondering how (even if only a fuel fire outside of the engine/frame) it doesn’t cause structural damage to the wing etc? If the guy is on fire for 13 seconds you’d think there is some damage done to the wing structure right? First time this happened the guy was on fire for half a minute while evading me, didn’t continue shooting cause obviously seeing that long fire I thought he was doomed.

1st log (KOHAH on fire for at least half a minute as I was behind him)

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=16312&name=LLv24_Radar

 

2nd log (seen on video)

http://taw.stg2.de/pilot_sortie.php?id=21688&name=LLv24_Radar

 

 

This all depends on what is the wing made off. Soviets access to light weight alloys were limited, so deltawood and steel were used. Both of which has much better resistance to fire than duraluminum. 

 

Deltawood don't conduct heat really that much, just chars at surface and won't even delaminate. As result, only thing that burns is the fuel. As long it don't burn near anything important, you can have a whole back of the wing burned without main spar being compromised.  

 

On aluminum structures; you have a material that conducts heat, have low melting point and yields in step function instead losing strength gradually. As cherry on top, it is also flammable in right conditions. It is the price the aerospace engineers pay even today: a titanium fuselage fire is kiss of death for any air frame, but the advantages offered by titanium and other light weight temperature sensitives materials still makes them desirable in aviation. 

 

The real question is, how this is modeled in the game, if this is a intended feature or a oversight. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[Herne]

I saw a documentary on YT the other day about BoBP. There was a p47 with a wing on fire. This guy didn't bail though and continued to fight for what seemed like ages in this documentary. Not sure what happened to this guy in the end though.

 

Found it, Possibly found this from a link in another thread so if you've seen it all before, my apologies.

 

 

[Legioneod]

2 hours ago, =FEW=Herne said:

I saw a documentary on YT the other day about BoBP. There was a p47 with a wing on fire. This guy didn't bail though and continued to fight for what seemed like ages in this documentary. Not sure what happened to this guy in the end though.

 

Found it, Possibly found this from a link in another thread so if you've seen it all before, my apologies.

Pilot is Jack Kennedy, He survived and landed safely.

 

His account is mentioned in the book: Bodenplatte: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope

Page 245

https://books.google.com/books?id=K931g607t1QC&amp;printsec=frontcover#v=snippet&amp;q=hydraulic&amp;f=false

Edited September 24, 2018 by Legioneod

[Herne]

Just now, Legioneod said:

Pilot is Jack Kennedy, He survived and landed safely.

 

His account is mentioned in the book: Bodenplatte: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope

https://books.google.com/books?id=K931g607t1QC&amp;printsec=frontcover#v=snippet&amp;q=hydraulic&amp;f=false

 

that's amazing stick around in a furball with a wing on fire, and then land safely. Balls of steel !!

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

Seems that many here think the inert gas system is a miracle device. It is not. It will NOT prevent fire from entering the fuel tank if several rounds tear it open. The mentioned airflow will suck the gas out as it will fuel, rendering the system next to useless.

 

It is good against rifle caliber rounds that merely puncture the tank, a 20mm or larger will rip a too big hole for the system to be effective. Same applies to self sealing tanks, against small holes, no use against bigger damage. 

 

How the game models stuff can one only guess about. 

[Finkeren]

47 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S! 

 

Seems that many here think the inert gas system is a miracle device. It is not. It will NOT prevent fire from entering the fuel tank if several rounds tear it open. The mentioned airflow will suck the gas out as it will fuel, rendering the system next to useless.

 

It is good against rifle caliber rounds that merely puncture the tank, a 20mm or larger will rip a too big hole for the system to be effective. Same applies to self sealing tanks, against small holes, no use against bigger damage. 

 

How the game models stuff can one only guess about. 

 

I don't think anyone actually thinks the inert gas system is "magical". What it does is simply prevent an initial bullet strike from igniting the fumes inside the tank and thus lower the risk of that first hit causing a catastrophic fuel fire inside the airframe - in game terms this means, that planes with an inert gas system should have very low risk of a fuel tank erupting in a big fireball on the very first hit. Of course the system would not be able to prevent oxygen from entering a tank shredded by a cannon round, although you could argue, that a fuel tank punctured in such a way would drain pretty damn fast, leaving little fuel to actually combust after a few seconds. However, in case of minor leaks, the system could still be moderately effective. Just because there is a small opening that allows some oxygen to enter the tank, the system doesn't stop feeding exhaust gasses into the tank under considerable pressure, making sure, that there is still a low amount of oxygen in the tank to facilitate ignition.