Serious thoughts and feedback for Career & AI

[Feathered_IV]

They are really good.  A huge amount of effort has gone into weather and graphics and those sort of flights show off everything that is good about the sim.  The navigation maps are well presented too and are very useful even with all the help features switched off.  It is no insult to the product to say that this aspect of the game is exceptionally well done. 

[Picchio]

It then becomes even more irritating when I feel like I'm basically being blackmailed: support financially, buy, hoping that one day certain aspects will be prioritized, or shut up because well, I didn't demonstrate my support.

Like Feathered_IV said, if these (even more vital now, with the upcoming theatre) aspects were planned, it would have been made clear; what sense does it make to counter this with "oh, they're reserving a surprise/they don't want any additional pressure". The only possible reason for this particular attitude to make sense would be that the issue is with the community that has been built around this product for what it has shaped into - which, in turn, models its future: without tangible and substantial progress. Ten more flight models and aircraft models, another map model. For me, simply put, it's a shame and a waste of energy for those who work at them.

 

Aside from the personal frustration, I admire the team for what's been done so far, especially with the implementation of the Career logic, but the simulation in its whole still lacks true substance: deep AI, and historical rootedness.

Edited September 23, 2018 by Picchio

[OrLoK]

I think it's a little harsh to say you are being blackmailed.

 

the game is almost unrecognizable from it's launch state and is constantly improving.

 

there may be legacy issues but don't think that the devs are unaware of them rather that they're more difficult to "fix" than one would imagine.

 

I'll continue to support the devs even it if takes as long as it needs to sort out any issues.

 

there's nothing out there that seriously competes with BoX.

 

the devs priorities may well seem odd to us occasionally but that's because we don't have all the info and facts on what goes on behind closed doors.

 

have some faith and remember you don't have to buy anything you don't want to

Edited September 23, 2018 by OrLoK

[Sandinourcoffee6]

Remember cfs4,Microsoft never finished it fully,

rumour has it the engine was really good but they lost interest in the product.

someone still has I on hard drive somewhere I heard.

itslike the big football team any problems,they just throw big money too fix any problems.

small football team they just make do with team they have and work hard too improve .

the devs are not Microsoft ,I just wish they could fix the AI,how long before we hear something concrete

[SwallowFire]

I haven’t fired up the game for a long time due to lack of decent single player content. Now for me it’s quite simple. I vote with my wallet and my wallet will keep silent as long as the devs keep silent about the ai and radio comms. Let it be tank crews, wwi, me262 or pacific. I won’t purchase any more unless i see improvements in gameplay. After spending nearly 200 dollars on a single game I reckon myself as supportive enough.

[blitze]

So Swallow, how long is a long time as you know there are regular improvements under the hood that are not always documented???

 

With AI in its current state career in full real can give a reasonable experience in depicting a war.  Sure we will not get hundreds of planes in the air at the same time across the front but the AI is not that useless and pilots were lost during the war even in silly accidents like take off and landing.  Just because we have the luxury of honing our skills in a virtual environment with no risk to our person does not mean it was so for them.  Also many pilots were sent up with just basic piloting skills who had to learn on the job if they survived long enough to.  Not every squad was filled with Hartmanns.  Losses were high.

 

With aids switched on it is even easier for us be it visual or aircraft management.

One can not also take QMG AI fighting as a guide as to how AI works in this sim as it is no more than instant fight gratification ignoring objectives that would occupy a real battle field.

 

Is there room for improvement, always.  Is it a game/sim breaker?  No.

 

If you want more then join up the SAA Air Force and get some Full Real experience in a live war environment.

[453=Thornley]

8 hours ago, OrLoK said:

have some faith

 

Trust is earnt. I trusted 777 when they said Rise of Flight would have a single player campaign. I bought plane after plane, over $300 worth. I waited patiently, supporting them. I was hopeful when they finally introduced the Beta campaign, but it was terrible, made worse by a horrific AI that simply spiralled to the ground when attacked. Then 777 dropped ROF and moved on to BoX. I had been such an idiot with my money.

 

I held off on buying BoX. Once burn, twice shy; but eventually I couldn't help myself. The planes are so beautiful and so lovely to fly. At first I was only buying BoX modules when heavily discounted, but like your typical junkie, once I got a hit again, I couldn't help myself. Now I own everything but the Ju52, and I find myself, once again hundreds of dollars down with a terrible single player campaign and appalling AI.

 

Any then I read comments from Jason Williams like "Please keep complaining. I didn't hear you the first 1000 times". He really doesn't like us does he.

 

And now I'm sitting here, contemplating the complete moron I have been. I knew the score but went back in a second time, wasting even more money. I cannot believe I've been this dumb. 

 

I know little about psychology, but I do know just enough to know that anything that causes you to despise yourself for participating in, you should probably avoid.

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by Bloodsplatter

[BraveSirRobin]

39 minutes ago, Bloodsplatter said:

 

Trust is earnt. I trusted 777 when they said Rise of Flight would have a single player campaign. I bought plane after plane, over $300 worth. I waited patiently, supporting them. I was hopeful when they finally introduced the Beta campaign, but it was terrible, made worse by a horrific AI that simply spiralled to the ground when attacked. Then 777 dropped ROF and moved on to BoX. I had been such an idiot with my money.

 

I held off on buying BoX. Once burn, twice shy; but eventually I couldn't help myself. The planes are so beautiful and so lovely to fly. At first I was only buying BoX modules when heavily discounted, but like your typical junkie, once I got a hit again, I couldn't help myself. Now I own everything but the Ju52, and I find myself, once again hundreds of dollars down with a terrible single player campaign and appalling AI.

 

Any then I read comments from Jason Williams like "Please keep complaining. I didn't hear you the first 1000 times". He really doesn't like us does he.

 

And now I'm sitting here, contemplating the complete moron I have been. I knew the score but went back in a second time, wasting even more money. I cannot believe I've been this dumb. 

 

I know little about psychology, but I do know just enough to know that anything that causes you to despise yourself for participating in, you should probably avoid.

 

 

I would bet my next paycheck that you buy whatever they sell next.  

 

OK, I’m retired, so I’m not risking much...  But still, the AI has sucked in every flight sim I have ever played.  It’s ridiculously difficult to program good AI, so we’re probably never getting good AI.  Just play MP or adjust your expectations to something a little more realistic.  Or find a new hobby.

[Adger]

4 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

I would bet my next paycheck that you buy whatever they sell next.  

 

OK, I’m retired, so I’m not risking much...  But still, the AI has sucked in every flight sim I have ever played.  It’s ridiculously difficult to program good AI, so we’re probably never getting good AI.  Just play MP or adjust your expectations to something a little more realistic.  Or find a new hobby.

 

You've never flown WOFF then BSR? I certainly would,nt say the Ai sucked in that particular sim. Yep the Box series does other things better but not the Ai.

[JonRedcorn]

1 minute ago, Adger said:

 

You've never flown WOFF then BSR? I certainly would,nt say the Ai sucked in that particular sim. Yep the Box series does other things better but not the Ai.

Does WOFF or WOTR use real flight models for their AI? I am seriously just asking out of curiosity.

[Adger]

1 minute ago, 15th_JonRedcorn said:

Does WOFF or WOTR use real flight models for their AI? I am seriously just asking out of curiosity.

 

Could,nt honestly tell you Jon..All i do know is that the fights "seem" real,in all the sims ive flown its probably the closest ive had to "feeling" like your up against a human player.

Thats about probably the best description i can give

[BraveSirRobin]

3 minutes ago, Adger said:

 

You've never flown WOFF then BSR? I certainly would,nt say the Ai sucked in that particular sim. Yep the Box series does other things better but not the Ai.

 

The only people who think the AI in WOFF is good are people who refuse to play MP.  I watched a video one of those people posted on the RoF forum of a WOFF SE5 on the deck trying to turn fight with a Dr1.  Trust me, the AI in WOFF sucks.  Just like the AI in every other flight sim.

[Adger]

3 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

The only people who think the AI in WOFF is good are people who refuse to play MP.  I watched a video one of those people posted on the RoF forum of a WOFF SE5 on the deck trying to turn fight with a Dr1.  Trust me, the AI in WOFF sucks.  Just like the AI in every other flight sim.

 

Ive played MP so that point to me is..moot. You,ve flown WOFF then i take it? And my opinion the Ai in WOFF does,nt suck. I agree the vast majority of flight sims have poor Ai. Its probably the most difficult thing to code.

Edited September 23, 2018 by Adger

[BraveSirRobin]

No, I haven’t flown WOFF.  I just watched a video of WOFF AI sucking.  I won’t buy a game that does not have MP.

Edited September 23, 2018 by BraveSirRobin

[Adger]

1 minute ago, BraveSirRobin said:

No, I haven’t flown WOFF.  I just watched a video of WOFF AI sucking.  I won’t buy a game that does no have MP.

Thats entirely your choice BSR,is the Ai in WOFF perfect ?..god no what sim is. Does it suck? IMO no. Is it the best sim ive played regarding the Ai feeling like your up against another human? to me yes,yes it is but...nothing can compare to going up against another player.

 

We have a difference of opinion thats cool. Some flyers dont want\have time for MP thats why SP suits them.

[BraveSirRobin]

Dude, the WOFF AI sucks.  I watched a video of an AI SE5 trying to turn fight with a Dr1 on the deck.  Ironically, the genius who posted that video did so to show how good the WOFF AI is.  

 

If you’re looking hard enough you’ll find serious problems with the AI in any game.  BoX’s AI doesn’t suck any less than the AI for any other flight sim.  

 

As for the time excuse, I’ve flow MP missions in less time than it took to fly BoS campaign missions.  

[Adger]

23 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Dude, the WOFF AI sucks.  I watched a video of an AI SE5 trying to turn fight with a Dr1 on the deck.  Ironically, the genius who posted that video did so to show how good the WOFF AI is.  

 

If you’re looking hard enough you’ll find serious problems with the AI in any game.  BoX’s AI doesn’t suck any less than the AI for any other flight sim.  

 

As for the time excuse, I’ve flow MP missions in less time than it took to fly BoS campaign missions.  

 

In YOUR opinion it sucks in MY opinion it doesn't. "Trust me"?..Ive flown possibly over 500hrs in WOFF i trust my own judgement. It isnt perfect i never claimed it was perfect BSR. Ive done plenty of Hrs in BOX and the Ai is worse. Dont get me wrong I love the BOX series i truly do but the Ai unfortunately is wayyy behind WOFF,S and thats my opinion. Put it this way if we could have everything BOX offered but WOFF\WOTR Ai id be happy has a pig in shit

 

Do i wish more than anything that BOX Ai gets a AI "Overhaul"..absolutely i really do. This series is beautiful,they've done great work bringing a SP campaign in,i could live with a "few" issues maybe now and again but..its a regular occurrence seeing the AI unfortunately behave the way it does. I still take a flight every couple of days but i no longer kick a campaign in. I still love diving down in the valleys with the "Tante Ju" or skimming the tree tops in my Spit but thats all im doing in the sim a bit of free flight. And it,s such a bloody shame.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Adger

[OrLoK]

1 hour ago, Bloodsplatter said:

 

Trust is earnt. I trusted 777 when they said Rise of Flight would have a single player campaign. I bought plane after plane, over $300 worth. I waited patiently, supporting them. I was hopeful when they finally introduced the Beta campaign, but it was terrible, made worse by a horrific AI that simply spiralled to the ground when attacked. Then 777 dropped ROF and moved on to BoX. I had been such an idiot with my money.

 

I held off on buying BoX. Once burn, twice shy; but eventually I couldn't help myself. The planes are so beautiful and so lovely to fly. At first I was only buying BoX modules when heavily discounted, but like your typical junkie, once I got a hit again, I couldn't help myself. Now I own everything but the Ju52, and I find myself, once again hundreds of dollars down with a terrible single player campaign and appalling AI.

 

Any then I read comments from Jason Williams like "Please keep complaining. I didn't hear you the first 1000 times". He really doesn't like us does he.

 

And now I'm sitting here, contemplating the complete moron I have been. I knew the score but went back in a second time, wasting even more money. I cannot believe I've been this dumb. 

 

I know little about psychology, but I do know just enough to know that anything that causes you to despise yourself for participating in, you should probably avoid.

 

I never buy into hype (mostly ;))

 

AI is always difficult as we notice when it messes up rather than when it works.

 

I could be very critical of the BOX series and indeed I am.

 

But I'm always constructive and try to understand the devs position.

 

there may have been disappointments along the way but I don't see any mercenary exploitation by the devs.

 

Jason can come across as a bit grumpy but he's not a PR guy and although he can be harsh I appreciate his candour.

 

as I've stated before Box isn't flawless but it's still bloody good and constantly improving.

 

they're a tiny team in an uber niche market. I might be wrong but think they're doing ok.

 

they could easily go the p2w path but it seems they know what they have and really want to move forward.

 

I think they'll deliver. (indeed I think they already have)

[BraveSirRobin]

Great, go play WOFF.  But when I see a video that is being sold as promoting great AI, and I see moronic AI...  Well, I just see someone proving my point.

 

My standards are a little higher, so I’m going to stick with MP.

[Adger]

14 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Great, go play WOFF.  But when I see a video that is being sold as promoting great AI, and I see moronic AI...  Well, I just see someone proving my point.

 

My standards are a little higher, so I’m going to stick with MP.

 

"Me" going to play WOFF isnt the answer to people asking about the AI in this series though is it..If you can make your decision that the AI is dumb by watching a clip then that,s your call.

I personally think its a bit of a daft call but ultimately its yours to make.

 

Enjoy your MP BSR. Hopefully myself and others can in time enjoy the SP as much has you enjoy your MP flying.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Adger

[BraveSirRobin]

4 minutes ago, Adger said:

 

If you can make your decision that the AI is dumb by watching a clip then that,s your call.

I personally think its a bit of a daft call but ultimately its yours to make.

 

It was a video intended to show how great WOFF’s AI is.  And showed AI that SUCKED.  I hate to think what a video showing WOFF AI flaws would have looked like.

[Cybermat47]

3 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

As for the time excuse, I’ve flow MP missions in less time than it took to fly BoS campaign missions.  

 

Okay, but it’s a bit difficult to pause a MP game, or to drop everything and leave. It’d be a bit awkward if I was taxiing on the runway, had to rush out to a fire or stop my dog from eating some plastic, and left my IL-2 to plough through half my team.

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, Pb_Cybermat47 said:

 

Okay, but it’s a bit difficult to pause a MP game, or to drop everything and leave. It’d be a bit awkward if I was taxiing on the runway, had to rush out to a fire or stop my dog from eating some plastic, and left my IL-2 to plough through half my team.

 

Just exit the server.  You can do that at any time.

 

Problem solved.

[Cybermat47]

5 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Just exit the server.  You can do that at any time.

 

Problem solved.

 

If one of my dogs is about to kill herself by eating something dangerous, I’m not going to bother pressing the escape button, moving the mouse down, clicking the “leave server” button, moving the mouse again, and then confirming that I do want to leave the server.

 

For people with busier lives than me, SP is definitely the better option. Even if you have to drop everything and leave, you can just restart the mission.

 

There are significantly less death and rape threats in SP as well.

 

Besides, what does it matter to you if other people prefer SP? The MP servers are well populated in this game, so it’s not affecting you.

[unreasonable]

7 minutes ago, Pb_Cybermat47 said:

 

 

There are significantly less death and rape threats in SP as well.

 

 

 

Oh, I don't know about that: you should hear what I say to my AI wingmen sometimes...

[BraveSirRobin]

11 minutes ago, Pb_Cybermat47 said:

Besides, what does it matter to you if other people prefer SP? The MP servers are well populated in this game, so it’s not affecting you.

 

It doesn't bother me at all.  I'm just responding to some of the ridiculous "reasons" that people have for not playing MP.  

 

BTW, no one has ever threatened to kill or rape me in MP.   Maybe that particular problem is on your end.

[Cybermat47]

4 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

BTW, no one has ever threatened to kill or rape me in MP.   Maybe that particular problem is on your end.

 

Nobody’s threatened to kill or rape me either. But a friend of mine once called out a team killer who was strafing a friendly airfield. The guy then threatened to rape my friend’s preschool-aged daughter.

 

I guess that problem was on his end, though? 

[BraveSirRobin]

Just now, Pb_Cybermat47 said:

 

Nobody’s threatened to kill or rape me either. But a friend of mine once called out a team killer who was strafing a friendly airfield. The guy then threatened to rape my friend’s preschool-aged daughter.

 

I guess that problem was on his end, though? 

 

If he took the threat seriously, yes.  

 

BTW, there is also a simple solution to that problem.  Don't read the chat.

[Cybermat47]

6 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

If he took the threat seriously, yes.  

 

So the problem was that someone got upset by the idea of his underage daughter being raped... not the fact that someone was talking about raping an underaged girl?

 

Do you actually agree with what you’re saying, or are you arguing just for the sake of arguing?

 

Seems pretty likely to me, given that you’re an MP only guy commenting in a thread about singleplayer.

[Godspeed]

This thread is not about multiplayer so please stop talking about it.

Its about career and ai issues in single play.

 

You use your wise words in multiplayer thread or send messages in private.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Godspeed

[BraveSirRobin]

Just now, Godspeed said:

This thread is not about multiplayer so please stop talking about it.

Its about career and ai issues in single play.

 

 

 

Yeah, it's really important that we stay on topic on the 10th thread started to complain about the AI.

[Godspeed]

7 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Yeah, it's really important that we stay on topic on the 10th thread started to complain about the AI.

 

Why are you here then?

If you get thrill about arguing with some dude go for it but not here.

There are places like chatroulette where you can do that and show them things you like.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Godspeed

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, Godspeed said:

 

Why are you here then?

 

Read my posts.  I've been talking about the AI.

[Cybermat47]

6 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

No, I'm saying that only a complete moron would take a threat like that seriously.

 

Again... he didn’t take it seriously, he just didn’t like the fact that someone was talking about raping his daughter.

 

He didn’t think it was actually going to happen, but that doesn’t change the fact that it was clearly a disgusting thing to say.

 

14 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

Right back at ya...

 

Hey, that’s probably true to some extent, but I have interest in this thread because I play singleplayer. You’ve said numerous times that you have no interest in singleplayer, which I completely understand, but the fact is that nothing discussed in this thread will impact you in any way.

[BraveSirRobin]

16 minutes ago, Pb_Cybermat47 said:

 

Again... he didn’t take it seriously, he just didn’t like the fact that someone was talking about raping his daughter.

 

He didn’t think it was actually going to happen, but that doesn’t change the fact that it was clearly a disgusting thing to say.

 

So what?  If there is absolutely no chance that it will happen, why would he possibly care about threats in chat?    It's empty meaningless posturing intended to get a reaction.  Just report them to the server host and move on.

 

16 minutes ago, Pb_Cybermat47 said:

Hey, that’s probably true to some extent, but I have interest in this thread because I play singleplayer. You’ve said numerous times that you have no interest in singleplayer, which I completely understand, but the fact is that nothing discussed in this thread will impact you in any way.

  

I unlocked all the BOS content and most of the BOM content.  Is that enough SP experience to allow me to comment on it?

Edited September 24, 2018 by BraveSirRobin

[Cybermat47]

21 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

So what?  If there is absolutely no chance that is will happen, why would he possibly care about threats in chat?    It's empty meaningless posturing intended to get a reaction.  Just report them to the server host and move on.

 

Yeah, that’s what he did. 

 

But, you know, some people might just not want to deal with people threatening to rape their daughters, so, getting back to what this thread is about in the first place, maybe they’d prefer to play singleplayer.

 

My friend still plays singleplayer, but can you honestly say that you don’t understand people not wanting to play multiplayer after seeing some of the stuff that shows up in chat?

 

But really, it shouldn’t matter to you why people choose to play singleplayer rather than multiplayer - which, as you said, is why you’re here.

 

1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

I'm just responding to some of the ridiculous "reasons" that people have for not playing MP.  

 

Besides, people playing singleplayer is financially viable to the devs. The two campaigns on sale cost $19.98 USD. Just 100 people buying them would make $1998.00 USD. 200 people buying both would make $3996.00 USD. Seems like the more people we have with ridiculous reasons to buy those campaigns, the more money the devs will have to make more content.

[Feathered_IV]

Cybernat, you are getting lured into a turnfight on the deck with a crap AI

[Cybermat47]

1 hour ago, Feathered_IV said:

Cybernat, you are getting lured into a turnfight on the deck with a crap AI

 

... yeah, can’t argue with that.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Pb_Cybermat47

[JonRedcorn]

I'd say this thread needs locked at this point, but that will only provide ammo for the "see they are locking any threads on AI" group. When in reality the threads run its course and is now far off topic. Conundrum indeed.

[Herne]

9 hours ago, OrLoK said:

I never buy into hype (mostly ;))

 

AI is always difficult as we notice when it messes up rather than when it works.

 

I could be very critical of the BOX series and indeed I am.

 

But I'm always constructive and try to understand the devs position.

 

there may have been disappointments along the way but I don't see any mercenary exploitation by the devs.

 

Jason can come across as a bit grumpy but he's not a PR guy and although he can be harsh I appreciate his candour.

 

as I've stated before Box isn't flawless but it's still bloody good and constantly improving.

 

they're a tiny team in an uber niche market. I might be wrong but think they're doing ok.

 

they could easily go the p2w path but it seems they know what they have and really want to move forward.

 

I think they'll deliver. (indeed I think they already have)

 

 

It's a bit off topic but one of the best Dev responses I saw in a forum was for Elite Dangerous, it was in the early day's when some people were complaining that Yaw was nerfed. 

 

A long explanation of reasons why it was nerfed for gameplay reasons from a dev followed, but at the end he said "If you don't like it, make your own game !!"

 

I only mention this because I also appreciate how Jason gets straight to the point.

Now regarding AI, there are probably a few areas from what I've seen that people want to see improved.

response to player commands :- I've not got to a stage in my careers where I have been in command so have no first knowledge of how good this is. Speaking for myself though, playing in VR I would actually like for their behaviour to be largely autonomous. Less commands I have to give the better for me. I have very few free (if any) buttons left on my hotas.

Feathered iv mentioned speech. I don't speak Russian or German. Hard for me to appreciate just how good or bad it is.

 

AI behaviour. We have seen small improvements. AI ground attacks for example. I've taken an overwatch position after dropping my bomb, with the intention of saving the ammo for enemies which may or may not arrive, looking down at the attack on artillery positions, watching as my comrades pick off different targets in a single pass. Looked convincing enough to me.

I could have kicked myself, flying a yak career bomber protection, when  I latch on to a 109. I close on his six, then I could have believed he had just seen me and went into a steep dive to get away. I foolishly followed and lost my control surfaces. I've fallen for that a few times in MP as well, but on this particular occasion I thought the AI was very good !
There is still a tendency though for AI evasion to just want to turn on the edge of the envelope, in these situations I go for high or low yoyo's to get guns on.

As someone who tries to hold his place in the formation for most of the time, one area I would like to see improved is formation behaviour. It seems to fall apart when reaching a waypoint, and takes too long to settle down again.

Because I play Iron Man only careers, I play on moderate difficulty. I don't know if AI enemy behaviour is more capable other than being more accurate when set to hard ?

 

I am really enjoying the career mode, I've had a fair few for different roles, different sides, and I've enjoyed all of them, biggest things on my wish list is career stability. Anyone else suffering from regular career corruption ?  I would also really like to be able to start a career on a particular date. Playing Iron Man ideally I would like to start a new pilot the day after a previous one dies or is captured, so that I don't have to start over or from the nearest phase of the campaign. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by =FEW=Herne