109 dog fighting and stalling

[Boris_Grishenko]

Hi

I've had IL-2 for a while now and started playing multiplayer about a year and a half ago, of course I wasn't expecting to shoot anything down but now that I've stacked up a couple hundred hours in the game I've realized that dog fighting in a 109 in a nightmare, I cant seem to do anything without stalling, and I try to be smooth whilst turning and I just can't seem to figure it out, I dive on targets only to have them turn away with ease, if I follow I either stall or they outrun me and they have a friend come in to kill me. I've also realized that when the 109 stalls it makes no sense the way it does such as in this video: (credit to JG1_Barton for the video)

, now apart from the stalling etc, I'd like to ask if there's anything I can do or if I am doing something wrong, from what I've seen on the topic I'd want to bee doing a boom and zoom, although this always fails and I am already well aware that turn fighting is a big no so idk what to do. 

if you can help me that's great if you've been experiencing the same or similar problem share it, I feel as though this needs to be tweaked and looked at in game.

thanks

Edited September 13, 2018 by F3R0C1TY
giving credit for video

[Talon_]

The 109 is an energy fighter over a pure boom and zoom fighter - for that you want a Fw190. 109 fighting is about maintaining an energy advantage of which boom and zoom is part of the toolkit but only a small part.

[Legioneod]

BnZ, 109 is by far the easiest aircraft to get kills in as long as you fly it properly. It can turn but it's best used in a hit and run or boom and zoom fashion imo.

If you dive on a target and they turn to evade you just have to climb back up and do it again, just gotta be patient and eventually they enemy will screw up.

 

If you do get into a turn fight you can always use your stabilizer to turn faster and also drop some flaps to help in the turn. I find the 109 to be extremely good in low speed turn fights when using flaps and stabilizer together.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Legioneod

[Eicio]

Also don't fly alone if you really want to survive.

 

Find a pack in a fight and join them, to do well alone you either have to be really good at what you're doing or have a far superior plane (hello there la-5FN).

 

If you fly on WoL stay above a crowded target (like an airfield) and wait, you'll often find skirmishes between reds and blue.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Disciplined risk-avoiding flying and surprising unsuspecting enemies is by far the best way to achieve high scores and not die. They dont turn if they never see you. They dont see you if they dont expect you or are busy doing something(say, looking at your wingman while you line up for a shot). Dont overcommitt, dont get dragged, dont prolong engagements, dont give up superior position and energy, dont focus too much and too long on target and suffer from tunnel vision and poor situational awareness, dont engage targets that are clearly aware of your presence if you dont have good chance of success or, say, need to help a friend. Greed gets you killed. Doesnt matter what plane you fly.

 

If I fly alone what I often do is avoid high action areas(where there are many enemies and all in "combat mode" mindset) and enemy airfields alltogether and instead lurk where they dont expect me and where I can attack someone without anyone else seeing and then bouncing on me. Boring? Maybe, but sometimes the friendly feedback given in chat is worth the wait.

[Herne]

I've never adjusted sensitivity curves for any sim. When you are flying at high speed a small control deflection apart from requiring a lot of force, will have a strong effect. When flying fast barely more than a touch is required to get the AC to do what you want. I think this is as it should be.

 

Altitude required for spin recovery is very different for different aircraft. Some types should recover very easily, while others will have you committed to several turns before recovery.

 

In VR Stall and spin behaviour feels pretty natural to me, but I never use full control deflection like you demonstrated in your video. I might lose control while trying to ride the edge, but chopping throttle, followed by standard spin recovery is believable enough to me. 

 

I think some strange behaviour can be observed sometimes if people do some "extreme" testing, trying to do things with these AC that they were not designed to do, but that's a different story, and I only mention it because of your full control deflection in the vid

Edited September 13, 2018 by =FEW=Herne

[Sgt_Joch]

obviously boom and zoom tactics are the best.

 

Another thing people forget is that the 109 can be very manœuvrable, but in the vertical plane. Dive, attack, loop over and at the top of the loop you can easily change direction to re-attack in a dive or extend away. If you do get into a horizontal turn with a enemy EA, do it out of plane to gain altitude and get on top of the enemy EA, you can then decide to re-enter the fight in a diving attack or extend away.

 

getting into a horizontal turn fight with a Yak, Spit or even La-5FN is asking for trouble.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Sgt_Joch
spelling

[Herne]

26 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

obviously boom and zoom tactics are the best.

 

Another thing people forget is that the 109 can be very manœuvrable, but in the vertical plane. Dive, attack, loop over and at the top of the loop you can easily change direction to re-attack in a dive or extend away. If you do get into a horizontal turn with a enemy EA, do it out of plane to gain altitude and get on top of the enemy EA, you can tend decide to re-enter the fight in a diving attack or extend away.

 

getting into a horizontal turn fight with a Yak, Spit or even La-5FN is asking for trouble.

 

109's can turn remarkably well though. I've tried to shake a few exceptional 109 pilots on Berloga with varying levels of success . . . or failure

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by =FEW=Herne

[Legioneod]

10 minutes ago, =FEW=Herne said:

 

109's can turn remarkably well though. I've tried to shake a few exceptional pilots on Berloga with varying levels of success . . . or failure

 

Agreed, especially in a slow turn with flaps and stabilizer extended, I find the 109 to be very maneuverable when flown like this.

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

Coordination of the stabilizer (trim), rudder, and stick are very important, it's not a yak where you just pull as long as your speed is good.  Also, why turn when you can keep your energy up and just reset the engadgement.   The only thing 109s lack to me are roll rate

[Ehret]

I would fly German fighters more often, especially the 190, if they would have a controllable rudder trim. At least the MC-202 has asymmetric wings to keep plane straight between 400-500km/h - a nice perk.

Not including a rudder trim is a bit weird... lack of it adds to pilot's fatigue, makes gunnery more difficult; hardly a good thing.

[Bremspropeller]

12 minutes ago, Ehret said:

Not including a rudder trim is a bit weird... lack of it adds to pilot's fatigue, makes gunnery more difficult; hardly a good thing. 

 

The ball should be centered at cruise speed with the pedals neutral. Also, mission-times (thanks to the low fuel volume of the 109/190) are seldomly longer than 0.75 to 1.0 hours, which is bearable.

If you shoot at close ranges, any offset by sideslip is low. It helps to use coordinated rudder at the right moment.

 

Thanks to all kinds of issues (e.g. power and pitch-changes), rudder-trim is seldomly optimal in dogfights - even in airplanes that have trimmable rudders.

[Eicio]

4 hours ago, Sgt_Joch said:

getting into a horizontal turn fight with a Yak, Spit or even La-5FN is asking for trouble.

 

I'd say especially the la-5FN, this plane is by far superior to the 109/190 and that's why you can't get more than one or two in MP.  It's really impressive what an average pilot could do with that thing.

[blitze]

5 hours ago, Legioneod said:

If you do get into a turn fight you can always use your stabilizer to turn faster and also drop some flaps to help in the turn. I find the 109 to be extremely good in low speed turn fights when using flaps and stabilizer together.

 

I usually set trim at 0 from nose down 1 on dial when entering a combat situation.  If I decide it is safe to turn and knife fight my opponent I will then set flaps between 10 and 20 down and use the throttle to help govern the turn / lead on the opponent.

 

The 109 is a very competent fighter but it took me a while to understand how to use it and till then, like you F3R0C1TY, I found myself stalling out in it a lot and getting frustrated.  My career in the Kuban with the 109 has taught me a lot.  Online, well unlike career mode, it more about picking your fights and not over committing as your opponents will be a little more capable than the AI.  I find though online lacks the historical feel of flying as a pilot in an outfit with mission briefings and objectives compared to career.  It is completely different flying against 12 or more aircraft with your flight in a battle than just a few planes on a server or 2 vs 2.  Still, bounces are fun online, hit and runs.

 

I fly with X52 stick with no dead zones or curves and pedals.

 

BnZ, leave that to the 190's

[Boris_Grishenko]

thanks for all the help I'll be sure to read through!

[[CPT]Crunch]

What kind of stick and pedals are you using, not all are equal.  Might not be so much the game, don't see that sort of stuff with a virpil on an extension, on stock game settings its smooth as glass, never any need to yank hard or go beyond controlability.  The only plane I regularly hit a wall in is the Macchi, but in left turns only.

[ShamrockOneFive]

9 hours ago, F3R0C1TY said:

Hi

I've had IL-2 for a while now and started playing multiplayer about a year and a half ago, of course I wasn't expecting to shoot anything down but now that I've stacked up a couple hundred hours in the game I've realized that dog fighting in a 109 in a nightmare, I cant seem to do anything without stalling, and I try to be smooth whilst turning and I just can't seem to figure it out, I dive on targets only to have them turn away with ease, if I follow I either stall or they outrun me and they have a friend come in to kill me. I've also realized that when the 109 stalls it makes no sense the way it does such as in this video: (credit to JG1_Barton for the video)

, now apart from the stalling etc, I'd like to ask if there's anything I can do or if I am doing something wrong, from what I've seen on the topic I'd want to bee doing a boom and zoom, although this always fails and I am already well aware that turn fighting is a big no so idk what to do. 

if you can help me that's great if you've been experiencing the same or similar problem share it, I feel as though this needs to be tweaked and looked at in game.

thanks

 

The Bf109 is a great plane but it, like any, needs a bit of getting used to before you can really start to get the full abilities of it.

 

I feel obligated to point out that the developers overhauled the flight model between the time that this video was posted (April 2017) and now (the FM change hit in August 2017). Aircraft became more stable laterally in general and the Bf109 in general has a heavier elevator.

 

I would strongly recommend not trying to stall fight in a Bf109. It's actually a bit of a dangerous aircraft there because it can actually do a decent bit of a stall turn for a short while before the energy loss is too much and you need a bit of time to recover. It can kind of suck in a pilot into doing some stuff that seems to be working over the short term but will ruin the bigger picture of the fight going on. The Bf109 is, as others have said, an excellent energy fighter. It climbs well, its fast at all altitudes, and its pretty much a solid aircraft in nearly all performance attributes but tactics do definitely matter.

 

The same producer of that video you posted is still making videos and just posted one a few days ago that has a pretty good 2 v 1 scenario that he calls 'The Chess Match.' It's a good talk about the bigger picture tactics employed and its using a Bf109.

 

 

Hope that helps a bit! You'll get the hang of it ... Keep watching videos, keep flying, and keep working on your tactical awareness. It gets better!

[MasserME262]

7 hours ago, Joeasyrida said:

Coordination of the stabilizer (trim), rudder, and stick are very important, it's not a yak where you just pull as long as your speed is good.  Also, why turn when you can keep your energy up and just reset the engadgement.   The only thing 109s lack to me are roll rate

Oh man just imagine a 109 with good roll rate... that would be... pure perfection of a plane

[Talon_]

7 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

Oh man just imagine a 109 with good roll rate... that would be... pure perfection of a plane

 

You're pretty much describing a clipped-wing Spitfire XIVe 

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

11 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

Oh man just imagine a 109 with good roll rate... that would be... pure perfection of a plane

 

3 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

You're pretty much describing a clipped-wing Spitfire XIVe 

I was thinking more of a mc205, re 2005, or g55

[Sgt_Joch]

The 109 is a great fighter if you take the time to learn its strength and weaknesses and fly it accordingly. I find its biggest problem is the lack of visibility from the cockpit: cramped cockpit and too many bars. There are many blind spots and it is too easy to lose track of a target even when using trackir (I suppose it may be easier in VR?).

 

That is one big advantage the Yak-1b and La-5fn have, big bubble canopy, few bars and you can even open the canopy in flight. It makes it much easier to spot and track targets. I dont even take the mirror anymore since it blocks a good part of the forward view. 

 

[Bremspropeller]

The 109 is a great fighter for when you don't really want to go to war:

Too small, too little gas-volume, not enough guns and generally a poor design tailored for mass-production rather than for pilot-convenience.

 

Overall a nice airplane for a flying club. When you can accept a large accident-rate.

Because that thing had to fit on a boxcar on it's own wheels to transport it.

 

Yeah - kind of makes you wonder of what it's designers thought of it:

It's safer to ship it by railway than to actually fly it from A to B.

[novicebutdeadly]

Me personally the 109 is my favorite ride.

The key is that you have to like the aircraft that you are flying, if you don't then you will never be in sync with it.

And this is the key, once you are in sync with the aircraft you will be able to fly it to it's limits.

You will know when to turn and burn, when to extend away (to keep the dogfight 3 dimensional) and when to cut and run

If you don't like the aircraft you are flying all you will get is agitation, aggravation,  and stalls.

Edited September 15, 2018 by novicebutdeadly

[JonRedcorn]

9 hours ago, Sgt_Joch said:

The 109 is a great fighter if you take the time to learn its strength and weaknesses and fly it accordingly. I find its biggest problem is the lack of visibility from the cockpit: cramped cockpit and too many bars. There are many blind spots and it is too easy to lose track of a target even when using trackir (I suppose it may be easier in VR?).

 

That is one big advantage the Yak-1b and La-5fn have, big bubble canopy, few bars and you can even open the canopy in flight. It makes it much easier to spot and track targets. I dont even take the mirror anymore since it blocks a good part of the forward view. 

 

All the planes are far easier to see out of in VR, it's pretty incredible how even planes like the p-39 almost "open up" so to say and feel much easier to see out of. I have flown the p-39 with both headtracking and VR and it's like flying a totally different plane between the two setups. With the headset on you can just look around so much easier to get a better view, that bar in your way just move your head over a tiny bit to get a better angle. It's all natural head movements with no curves or other oddities. I guess you can move around too with headtracking but it's a lot more clumsy. Maybe opentrack isn't as good as trackir I don't know.

Edited September 15, 2018 by 15th_JonRedcorn

[9./JG27golani79]

Nah, even with TrackIR it is clumsy from time to time.

Also I find it kinda tiring when flying longer sessions.

[JonRedcorn]

2 hours ago, 9./JG27golani79 said:

Nah, even with TrackIR it is clumsy from time to time.

Also I find it kinda tiring when flying longer sessions.

VR or headtracking? VR is definitely tiring. I keep wanting to go back to tracking but VR is just so much better it makes it nearly impossible. If I made a better tracking clip I'd probably be using it more, but for some reason I can't get it calibrated perfectly and the dang camera is a burden to have setup.

Edited September 15, 2018 by 15th_JonRedcorn

[9./JG27golani79]

Headtracking. At least for me because  it kinda unnatural due to the fact that you constantly have to keep your eyes on the screen while your head is turned somewhere else.

 

Unfortunately I don't have VR yet.

I myself am using the Pro Clip but it still has its quirks - sometimes you get stuck under the instruments panel and stuff like that.

 

VR must feel awesome but I guess it is even more tiring.

[ZachariasX]

19 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Overall a nice airplane for a flying club. When you can accept a large accident-rate.

About the best description of the 109 I’ve ever heard! It will be an awsome flying club. Especially if it has some silver doped Hawker Furys as well...

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

Interesting description for the airplane that shot down more other airplanes than anything else in history....

 

Of course there are plenty of other circumstances that helped it and its pilots to achieve this, but its still an impressive record for your flying clubs local Cessna....

[Bremspropeller]

4 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

About the best description of the 109 I’ve ever heard! It will be an awsome flying club. Especially if it has some silver doped Hawker Furys as well...

 

Which ones? The biplanes or the proper airplanes? Count me in on the latter.

Coming to think of it - dump the 109s and just get those Sea (!!) Furies!

[ZachariasX]

7 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Which ones? The biplanes or the proper airplanes? Count me in on the latter.

Coming to think of it - dump the 109s and just get those Sea (!!) Furies!

Biplanes of course. They fly very well and crews loved them. Flying them, Peter Townsend thought of the RAF of the late thirties "the best flying club in the world". Those poor Furys lost considerable appeal when the had them overpainted in camouflage coloring. They also lost a noticeable bit of performance. The other would indeed be the Sea Furys. Oh boy...   But if your club members live through flying with the late 109's, then the Sea Fury should be rather safe to operate.^^

Edited September 16, 2018 by ZachariasX

[E_Davjack]

13 hours ago, 15th_JonRedcorn said:

VR or headtracking? VR is definitely tiring. I keep wanting to go back to tracking but VR is just so much better it makes it nearly impossible. If I made a better tracking clip I'd probably be using it more, but for some reason I can't get it calibrated perfectly and the dang camera is a burden to have setup.

 

Not that you should abandon VR, if it works for you, but I wrote up an Opentrack guide and you might find the calibration section helpful.  Opentrack didn't work very well for me until I learned about the little Yellow Crosshair, and how to set it manually.  Now it works like a dream. 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by EmerlistDavjack
derp

[SCG_Syn]

On 9/15/2018 at 6:42 AM, Bremspropeller said:

The 109 is a great fighter for when you don't really want to go to war:

Too small, too little gas-volume, not enough guns and generally a poor design tailored for mass-production rather than for pilot-convenience.

 

Overall a nice airplane for a flying club. When you can accept a large accident-rate.

Because that thing had to fit on a boxcar on it's own wheels to transport it.

 

Yeah - kind of makes you wonder of what it's designers thought of it:

It's safer to ship it by railway than to actually fly it from A to B.

 I wonder what would happen if I shot you down, still be a terrible plane?

Guns are'nt a problem when shooting at fighters or IL2s(unless you can't aim for some reason), The volume of petrol it carries is actually comparable to the spitfire and the yak and last just as long as both of them, its only when compared to Amercian planes do you get range problems. A good pilot can land it with no problems and atleast its not as bad a mig-3 taking off. 

[Bremspropeller]

3 hours ago, SCG_Sinerox said:

 I wonder what would happen if I shot you down, still be a terrible plane?

 Yes.

 

3 hours ago, SCG_Sinerox said:

Guns are'nt a problem when shooting at fighters or IL2s(unless you can't aim for some reason)

There are other targets than fighters.

 

3 hours ago, SCG_Sinerox said:

The volume of petrol it carries is actually comparable to the spitfire and the yak and last just as long as both of them

They all suck for the same reason.

 

3 hours ago, SCG_Sinerox said:

its only when compared to Amercian planes do you get range problems.

No. It's when you start thinking about strategic operations, which the Germans never did, which in turn is why they lost.

 

3 hours ago, SCG_Sinerox said:

A good pilot can land it with no problems and atleast its not as bad a mig-3 taking off.  

If you need "good pilots" to safely operate an airplane, then you have designed a shitty airplane.

[Ehret]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

They all suck for the same reason.

 

A clever and patient pilot driving the P-51D can defeat the K-4 in 1vs1, or even 262, most of the time. Just drag/evade them long enough so they will be out of fuel. Of course, in the game it's unlikely to have a place, but still...

 

It's even better for the P-51D equip air-force at the strategic level. With P-51D you can attack the enemy's air-bases while the enemy can not touch yours.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Ehret

[Kandiru]

On 9/13/2018 at 2:27 PM, Joeasyrida said:

Coordination of the stabilizer (trim), rudder, and stick are very important, it's not a yak where you just pull as long as your speed is good.  Also, why turn when you can keep your energy up and just reset the engadgement.   The only thing 109s lack to me are roll rate

I set my stabilizer axis trim at around -39, dunno why but this is the best, quick reaction to stalls with the MFG Crosswinds pedals helps a lot. The 100mm Warthog extension also helps greatly, zero sensitivities and dead zones with this stick now.

As others said, discipline is the key,  becoming I-16 or Spitfire fodder in Wings of Liberty is a perennial with me after the thrill of a kill, as sooner or later I tire out and greed takes over.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Kandiru

[peregrine7]

On 9/17/2018 at 4:08 AM, Bremspropeller said:

If you need "good pilots" to safely operate an airplane, then you have designed a shitty airplane.

 

True, but only to an extent. Many of the planes in this game are easy to learn, but terribly hard to master. The 109 is the opposite to me, unintuitive to learn but once you get the basics down it becomes very powerful with very little practice.

[Legioneod]

Imo the 109 is an aircraft that makes bad pilots look good, and good pilots look like they have superpowers. It's a very easy aircraft to fly and get kills in, it takes very little skill imo.

 

A good testament to the aircrafts quality, but not so much for the pilots skill.

[Bremspropeller]

6 hours ago, peregrine7 said:

True, but only to an extent. Many of the planes in this game are easy to learn, but terribly hard to master. The 109 is the opposite to me, unintuitive to learn but once you get the basics down it becomes very powerful with very little practice.

 

I was actually talking of the real airplane - not so much the 109 in game. Due to the game's bias toward dogfights, the plane is pretty good and the real-life drawbacks are camoflaged.

 

Not having much gas to play with and generally a design that tries to kill you on every take-off and on most landings is not a good way to go. Many - even highly experienced - warbird drivers are rather cautious towards the airplane. The pilot I hitched a ride with in his P-51 (and who had built and flown a 109) told me, it's not harder to operate than a Pitts.

Now a Pitts isn't out of this world, but it's known to bite if not treated with a good deal of respect. And that is a bad behaviour for a fighter-airplane, when your training-command is spitting out increasingly greener dweebs.

[Willy__]

10 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Imo the 109 is an aircraft that makes bad pilots look good,

 

I'll have to disagree. The 109 is good aircraft, but it doesnt make a pilot good, on the contrary, you can easily recognize the bad pilots by the way they fly, and the characteristics of the 109 certainly doesnt help the new and bad pilots who like to dive in the first target he sees and immediatelly starts to turn fight.