The K-4 Isn't Special

[NZTyphoon]

3 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

It hardly was a German-only phenomenon though. There's an excerpt on the condition of Allied aircraft (Tempest, Spitfire, Mustang) inspected just before testing increased boost. All were found to be in poor condition, as received from their Squadrons, i.e. the operational norm. Mustangs were said to be down 12 mph in speed, Tempests were down by 5 mph, and Spitfires, by 8 mph. 

 

Personally, I am not much surprised on the quote either. American built aircraft I have seen from this era all seem to have been very built. German ones are also generally well built, on average, probably somewhat less so...

 

It was pretty normal that serially were performing down (or up) from their nominal values. Accepting +/- 3% variance in top speed between individual planes was internationally accepted tolerance, or so it would seem.

 

 

It's well documented that by mid-1944, a combination of factors led to a serious deterioration in the build quality of Bf 109s: for one, an increasing reliance on slave labour (ie: concentration camp inmates), foreign workers (often unwilling) and prisoners of war (also unwilling), along with the drafting of skilled workers into the military, meant that there was an inevitable decline in production standards: secondly, deteriorating supply lines also caused real problems, such that aircraft could leave the production lines as hybrids.

Edited September 14, 2018 by NZTyphoon
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[MiloMorai]

20 minutes ago, SCG_Riksen said:

 

Guess you cannot guarantee that they did not have a single K4 1.98 ata, can you?

 

Can you?

..an extract from Lorant/Goyat "Bataille dans le ciel d'Allemagne" ...(a translation)

At Kleinkarolinenfeld, around ten pilots who no longer had aircraft piled into a truck at dawn on 27 April 1945 in order to drive to the airfield at Bad Wörishofen and take delivery of Messerschmitt 109s fresh out of the factories. Fw. Arnulf Meyer (9. Staffel) never forgot the scenes they witnessed that day:

Rows of Messerschmitt 109s and Focke-Wulf 190s lined up around the airfield perimeter, others out in the open (!) under the odd camouflage net. Teams of oxen in yokes in the midst of all this enabled the aircraft to be moved around without utilizing any manpower or fuel… At least one hundred fighters from the assembly lines were dispersed around the field. The Officer that met us showed us the latest sub-types to be delivered: Focke-Wulfs with in-line engines and in particular the Messerschmitt Bf 109 K, an improved sub-type of our “Gustav” model. There was bustling activity on the field. Aircraft were landing and taking off constantly. There was no airfield protection Rotte in the air. Our surprise was even greater when we were told that thirty brand new aircraft were due to arrive at the depot that day if the necessary pilots to ferry them in could be found. We were presented to the airfield commander who had set up his office in a comfortably appointed wooden shack: a fatherly Major who gave us a pleasant welcome. Of course we wanted to take the Bf 109 Ks… He asked us for our papers indicating our various type ratings but after scrutinizing them, he handed them back with a shake of the head and simply said: “sorry, I can’t give you any K-4s. You’ve only flown the G-10, so take the G-10s!”

We tried to explain to him that whether they were the G or K variant, they were still Messerschmitt 109s and any mods were almost certainly to be of a minor nature, unlikely to impact on the handling qualities of the aircraft. He did not appear particularly convinced by our arguments, but I noted how keenly he eyed us smoking our American cigarettes. These were retrieved from US prisoners and our Spieß always had them in his stocks. As naturally as possible, I offered the Major one of these cigarettes. His face lit up. Just for good measure, I left a barely started packet on his desk. He thanked me and told us that he was going to see what he ‘‘could do”. In the minute that followed, more packets of cigarettes changed hands and in this way we soon had authorization to take the Messerschmitt Bf 109 K-4s!

 

We went to select our Messerschmitts in the company of the line chief, who asked us what our destination airfield was. The fuel crisis had also reached this field. Our aircraft were fueled with enough for thirty minutes flying time, which was largely sufficient to get back to Kleinkarolinenfeld. On the other hand the armament magazines were empty. We were given parachutes and life jackets. Suddenly we saw a car drawing up and out climbed the depot commander. He told us in a voice bereft of emotion that he was not sorry that we were taking the 109 Ks. Then he read the text of a teleprinter message he had just received. The presence of American troops and tanks was reported ten kilometers from Bad Wörishofen and he was ordered to immediately destroy all the aircraft housed on the airfield. The Major explained to us that the 109s were easier to blow up than the 190s, as they carried as standard a delayed-action 3 kg explosive charge in the fuselage housed next to the fuselage fuel tank. We smoked a last cigarette together with the officer. The imminent debacle seemed more of a relief to him than anything else. He had fought during the First World War and had been wounded but was of the opinion that the disaster befalling our country was of a much more serious nature on this occasion. He hoped that we would soon be back among our families and that we would not risk our lives pointlessly. He started up his car and drove off.

 

My first takeoff in the Bf 109 K held no surprises. The aircraft was poorly trimmed and the compass was not functioning, which meant that I had to follow my comrades blindly. A typical product of our war industry in 1945: the instruments were incorrectly calibrated and there was nothing coming through the oxygen mask. Fortunately our flight level did not exceed 1,000 meters. We all landed without incident at Kleinkarolinenfeld. Happily enough the brakes worked…

 

III./JG53 was based at Kleinkarolinenfeld from 13.4.45 to 1.5.45.

 

[FTC_Riksen]

Yup. Just like I thought ... 

[Garven]

If there is 1.98ata K-4's in the game then there should be an option for 150 octane fuel for the Mustang and Thunderbolts at the very least since the 8th air-force aircraft operated in the same skies as IX fighter command.  We all know that the 8th air-force fielded a large number of fighters using 150 octane unlike the number of German fighters using C3.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Garven_Dreis

[Kurfurst]

37 minutes ago, SCG_Riksen said:

Yup. Just like I thought ... 

 

Don’t bother with Fantasy Man. Its a waste of time.

[Legioneod]

22 minutes ago, Garven_Dreis said:

If there is 1.98ata K-4's in the game then there should be an option for 150 octane fuel for the Mustang and Thunderbolts at the very least since the 8th air-force aircraft operated in the same skies as IX fighter command.  We all know that the 8th air-force fielded a large number of fighters using 150 octane unlike the number of German fighters using C3.

Agreed. Iirc nearly every 8th AF fighter group was using 150 fuel by the time of Bodenplatte. 

[MiloMorai]

4 hours ago, SCG_Riksen said:

Yup. Just like I thought ... 

 

You think?? You can't prove that 1.98ata was used after Mar 20 1945. Anyways, Mar 20 1945 is not in the period of Il-2 Bodenplatte.

[9./JG27golani79]

No, you can't ...

No, you can't ...

No, you can't ...

. . . 

.  .  . 

 

zZz ...

 

Don't you ever get tired of the same old "discussion" ???

[Kurfurst]

Well, setting the DB 605D between 1,8 ata (DB) and 1,98 ata (DC) required the following:

 

- Setting the fuel valve (fuel injection pump) to maximum delivery (adjusting a screw from 15 mm to 13,8 mm)

- Setting the manifold pressure regulator from 1,8 ata to 1,98 ata

- Setting the supercharger controls aux. pump to give maximum performance at already 600 m

 

And that’s it.

Edited September 14, 2018 by VO101Kurfurst

[Asgar]

3 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Agreed. Iirc nearly every 8th AF fighter group was using 150 fuel by the time of Bodenplatte. 

8th AF?...the guys stationed in the UK... and here i thought BoBP was lowland stationed units only

[MiloMorai]

8 minutes ago, 9./JG27golani79 said:

No, you can't ...

No, you can't ...

No, you can't ...

. . . 

.  .  . 

 

zZz ...

 

Don't you ever get tired of the same old "discussion" ???

 

Not when there is revisionist history.?

[Legioneod]

5 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Asgar said:

8th AF?...the guys stationed in the UK... and here i thought BoBP was lowland stationed units only

They flew in the same operational theater as the 9th. 8th flew in pretty much every battle we will see represented in Bodenplatte. We will also see at least one 8th AF fighter group represented in the career iirc.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Legioneod

[Asgar]

1 minute ago, Legioneod said:

They flew in the same operational theater as the 9th. 8th flew in pretty much every battle we will see represented in Bodenplatte. We will also see at least one 8th AF fighter group represented in the career.

doesn't matter where they fly, matters where they started, our planes are stationed in the lowland, take off in the lowlands, get supplied in the lowlands. It doesn't matter who crosses the channel

Edited September 14, 2018 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[Legioneod]

Just now, 6./ZG26_Asgar said:

doesn't matter where they fly, matters where they started, our planes are stationed in the lowland, take off in the lowlands, get supplied in the lowlands. It doesn't matter who crosses the channel

In multiplayer terms it's irrelevant where they start. They could have air starts to represent the 8th AF units in the area.

[Asgar]

Just now, Legioneod said:

In multiplayer terms it's irrelevant where they start. They could have air starts to represent the 8th AF units in the area.

they can do that, but they still wont have 150octane fuel, just like their friends in the lowlands

[Legioneod]

25 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

 

Mar 20 1945 is not in the period of Il-2 Bodenplatte.

Yes it is, April 1st is the end date iirc.

Just now, 6./ZG26_Asgar said:

they can do that, but they still wont have 150octane fuel, just like their friends in the lowlands

All depends on what the devs decide.

[MiloMorai]

Thanks for the correction.?

[Kurfurst]

1 minute ago, Legioneod said:

Yes it is, April 1st is the end date iirc.

 

Not that at it matters much, since the March 20 data is when four additional 109 Gruppen (wings) that remained in the west were ordered to swtich their engines to 1,98 ata.

 

Before that, units were already operating at the 1,98 ata rating between December 44 and January 45 (the rating was temporarily recalled for further operational testing in late January 45).  II/JG 11 was already operating at the 1,98 ata in Febuary (albeit primarly on the Eastern Front, as they were stationed near Berlin). In short, between December 44 and April 44, there was not a single month when at least some units were not operating on 1,98 ata. February 1945 was basically the only month when the majority of the units could not, due to the recall.

[Legioneod]

1 minute ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

Not that at it matters much, since the March 20 data is when four additional 109 Gruppen (wings) that remained in the west were ordered to swtich their engines to 1,98 ata.

 

Before that, units were already operating at the 1,98 ata rating between December 44 and January 45 (the rating was temporarily recalled for further operational testing in late January 45).  II/JG 11 was already operating at the 1,98 ata in Febuary (albeit primarly on the Eastern Front, as they were stationed near Berlin). In short, between December 44 and April 44, there was not a single month when at least some units were not operating on 1,98 ata. February 1945 was basically the only month when the majority of the units could not, due to the recall.

Real question is whether or not we should have it just because a few units operated at those levels?

 

Imo if we get 1.98 ata represented based off of just a few units we also should have 150 fuel represented for the 8th and 2nd TAF.

[Kurfurst]

Few units..? We are talking about roughly 17 fighter squadrons here, as far as 1945 is concerned. So that’s kinda like saying Cliffs of Dover should not have Spitfires at all, since just a few units operated those.. A German Gruppe is a rough equaivalent of a RAF Wing, is made up of 4 Staffeln, or Squadrons with 16 planes. Even in the generally battered state, they had roughly 150 aircraft between them, though it varied from day to day. as for 1944, its more different to track down the units, but we know that there were about 3-400 109s (G10s, G14/AS, K4) on strenght with the Luftwaffe which had engines that could - and some certainly DID -  set up their engines to this boost at any time.

 

As for 150 grade fuel, why not. The 8th AAF is a bit stretching it though, they simply did not took part in the operations our battles will be concerned with, and the 9th AAF on the continent that WAS involved did not use 150 grade at all. For the 2nd TAF, you can probably cram it in for those late war scenarios, since they only started to use it in 1945.

 

Ultimately, its up to the developers how to draw their priorities and what they spend their resources on. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by VO101Kurfurst

[MiloMorai]

The JG 53 units were nowhere near what is to be the Bodenplatte map as was I./JG27. III./JG27 would be close to, maybe, being on the map.

 

For Bodenplatte III./JG27 had 15 serviceable K-4s.  There was 261 G-10s, G-14/AS, K-4 serviceable for Bodenplatte out of an establishment authorized strength of 1984.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

1.98 ATA and 150 oct fuel should both be in IF they were used beyond testing and a squad or two only in the planes we get. Regardless of planned single player campaign. Let mission makers and ultimately players decide. Interestingly bombers nightmare LaGG with vya 23 is common in multiplay but 1.98 ata is apparently revisionism.

 

Ps Spit IX with 25lbs boost is still slower than Dora and 109 K-4 with ata 1.8. 

[MiloMorai]

51 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

as for 1944, its more different to track down the units

 

Up to the end of 1944 it is not that hard.

 

http://www.ww2.dk/

 

The coming and goings of II./JG11, http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biijg11.html

 

Dec '44 month end II./JG11 had 50 a/c on hand (1 G-6, 38 G-14, 11 K-4 and the K-4s arrived in the 3rd week of the month).

 

JG 11 was finally ordered to move to the Eastern Front in Poland on 23 January 1945.

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by MiloMorai

[Legioneod]

49 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

As for 150 grade fuel, why not. The 8th AAF is a bit stretching it though, they simply did not took part in the operations our battles will be concerned with.

Yes they did, the 8th participated in nearly every battle represented in Bodenplatte. The 8th didn't escort bombers only, they also did may of the types of missions we see in Bodenplatte.

[MiloMorai]

1 hour ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Well, setting the DB 605D between 1,8 ata (DB) and 1,98 ata (DC) required the following:

 

- Setting the fuel valve (fuel injection pump) to maximum delivery (adjusting a screw from 15 mm to 13,8 mm)

- Setting the manifold pressure regulator from 1,8 ata to 1,98 ata

- Setting the supercharger controls aux. pump to give maximum performance at already 600 m

 

And that’s it.

 

C3 avgas was also required.

[MiloMorai]

1 hour ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Few units..? We are talking about roughly 17 fighter squadrons here, as far as 1945 is concerned. So that’s kinda like saying Cliffs of Dover should not have Spitfires at all, since just a few units operated those.. 

 

On Sept 2 1940 there was 19 squadrons of Spitfires and 32 squadrons of Hurricanes. Yup, just a few, be sure.

[FTC_Riksen]

2 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

 

Not when there is revisionist history.?

 

Opinion is not revisionism when there is lack of evidence. You keep spilling tye same garbage in every thread but yet cannot prove there was "0" K4 1.98 ata. So what, Am I supposee to believe in your argument when you have nothing to back that up?

[EAF19_Marsh]

Quote

but yet cannot prove there was "0" K4 1.98 ata. So what, Am I supposee to believe in your argument when you have nothing to back that up?

 

And no one can 'prove' that there were, only that they were offficially allowed to run at that rating in March 1945 (ie when everything was in short supply) by an OEM far behind the lines. Even Kurfurst, in moments of clarity, concedes that they were very limited and constituted a tiny fraction of the fighter force.

[FTC_Riksen]

2 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Real question is whether or not we should have it just because a few units operated at those levels?

 

Imo if we get 1.98 ata represented based off of just a few units we also should have 150 fuel represented for the 8th and 2nd TAF.

 

Exactly. Finally common sense ... If one has 1.98ata, the other shouls have 150 oct, simple solution! Instead of saying "Revisionims history" because your favorite plane is being "threatened" in a game ... a game! The more mods, the better!

1 minute ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

And no one can 'prove' that there were, only that they were offficially allowed to run at that rating in March 1945 (ie when everything was in short supply) by an OEM far behind the lines. Even Kurfurst, in moments of clarity, concedes that they were very limited and constituted a tiny fraction of the fighter force.

 

You sais it yourself "tiny fraction" which is clearly not the same as 0. Im not contesting they were rare, but saying they did not have a single one is too much ...

[Mauf]

30 minutes ago, SCG_Riksen said:

 

Exactly. Finally common sense ... If one has 1.98ata, the other shouls have 150 oct, simple solution! Instead of saying "Revisionims history" because your favorite plane is being "threatened" in a game ... a game! The more mods, the better!

 

You sais it yourself "tiny fraction" which is clearly not the same as 0. Im not contesting they were rare, but saying they did not have a single one is too much ...

 

Well, it all comes down to the discipline of the mission makers in how they allow access to them and in what quantities (aka, they should be rare). Because we know: The playerbase itself is sorely full of arms-race pilots who only take the best and fastest whenever they can. Once the "better" model is available, you'll see it spammed until the stock counter runs to zero.

 

I wish there was better control options available on who gets to take these planes. Maybe attached to the "Air marshal" thing where he manages the available stocks and assigns them to players rather than the current "First comes, first served" style. Or something based on performance like "Getting 2-3 kills and actually bringing your plane back to base to get one sortie on a K4 1.98 ata".

Edited September 14, 2018 by Mauf

[Kurfurst]

50 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

And no one can 'prove' that there were, only that they were offficially allowed to run at that rating in March 1945 (ie when everything was in short supply) by an OEM far behind the lines.

 

Actually that is entirely false. Luftwaffe führungstab (~Operations Staff) gave the actual Operational order, not the engine manufacturer, and the modifications required were simple and already available - requiring simply to set the engine to higher boost.The ground mechanics had to turn a couple of screws, actually. Unless screwdrivers were in short supply, I doubt it presented too much trouble.

 

50 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Even Kurfurst, in moments of clarity, concedes that they were very limited and constituted a tiny fraction of the fighter force.

 

In fact I just stated the opposite - the units concerned by the March 1945 were practically all the 109 units that still remained in the west  (which concerns our map) and put up a sort of guerilla fight in the air - mostly ground attack sorties actually, with the occasional clash with Thunderbolts.

 

[MiloMorai]

3 hours ago, SCG_Riksen said:

 

Opinion is not revisionism when there is lack of evidence. You keep spilling tye same garbage in every thread but yet cannot prove there was "0" K4 1.98 ata. So what, Am I supposee to believe in your argument when you have nothing to back that up?

 

So far you have produced no facts for your favorite airplane.

 

1.98ata required C3 avgas. Show me how much C3 avgas was at Horn/Hamburg (19.3 - 3.30) and Helmstedt (30.3 - 8.4) when I./JG27 were based there and Gutersloh (18.3 - 29.3) and Goslar (29.3 - 8.4) when III./JG27 were based there before April 1 1945.

 

III./JG53 and IV./JG53 were nowhere near the Bodenplatte map when they were cleared for 1.98ata. That only leaves the JG27 units bases which depending on the map which might or might not be on the map, and have C3 avgas.

 

An original of the March 20 document has never been produced.

Edited September 14, 2018 by MiloMorai

[Kurfurst]

British intel reports of crashed G14 and G10 fueled with C3, from January 1945.

 

 

 

Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 330 ... "Gelbe 7", 3./JG 27, Rheine, December 1944.

Marked with C-3 fuel triangle.

 

Source: eBay auction via facebook.com.

Courtesy of Sinisa Sestanovic, Bf 109 from Anton to Toni Group, Facebook.com, 20 September 2017.

via Marc-André Haldimann

Edited September 14, 2018 by VO101Kurfurst

[Bremspropeller]

7 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Asgar said:

8th AF?...the guys stationed in the UK... and here i thought BoBP was lowland stationed units only

 

The 352nd FG was continent-based.

[IVJG4-Knight]

16 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

The 352nd FG was continent-based.

 

But wasn't the 352 placed under 9th airforce command during bodenplatte ?

 

[9./JG27DefaultFace]

Yes but I doubt they modified their engines (especially downrated) them for the period that they were detached.

[MiloMorai]

1 hour ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

British intel reports of crashed G14 and G10 fueled with C3, from January 1945.

 

Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 330 ... "Gelbe 7", 3./JG 27, Rheine, December 1944.

Marked with C-3 fuel triangle.

 

Source: eBay auction via facebook.com.

Courtesy of Sinisa Sestanovic, Bf 109 from Anton to Toni Group, Facebook.com, 20 September 2017.

via Marc-André Haldimann

 

I./JG27 wasn't cleared to use 1.98ata at that time.

Edited September 14, 2018 by MiloMorai

[Legioneod]

17 minutes ago, 9./JG27DefaultFace said:

Yes but I doubt they modified their engines (especially downrated) them for the period that they were detached.

They'd still need 150 fuel in order to fly at higher settings. 150 fuel is what gave them tha ability to have higher ratings.

[Kurfurst]

29 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

 

I./JG27 wasn't cleared to use 1.98ata at that time.

 

Of course it was. All DB 605D and ASB-ASC engines were cleared for 1,98 ata at that time (i.e. the month before and after Bodenplatte)

 

DB 605 DB-DC Motorenkarte from 1 December 1944 clears 1,98 ata (also 1,8ata). On 5 December, DB also issued a very detailed technical letter for mechanics with detailed instructions how to set up the engines for these rating exactly, what spark plugs to use, how to adjust ignition timing, set up the throttle and so forth.

 

 

DB instruction to mechanics to mark engines with 1,8ata setup with a large B letter, and 1,98 ata setup engines with a large C letter, from 21 December 1944.

 

 

Records of meeting from 24 January 1945 confirming DB has cleared the 1,98 ata rating and the 1,8ata rating together, both ratings were given out to operational units and Galland and the engines have been set up for 1,98 ata. 

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by VO101Kurfurst

[MiloMorai]

3 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Of course it was. All DB 605D and ASB-ASC engines were cleared for 1,98 ata at that time (i.e. the month before and after Bodenplatte)

 

???

Edited September 14, 2018 by MiloMorai