Best 190 & 109 Variants?

[pegg00]

Okay hello everyone, I'm a pretty new player here.  I'm wondering what are the major differences between all the 109 and 190 variants.  I'm especially interested in the differences between the FW-190 A-5, A-3, & A-8, and the BF-109 G-14, F-4, E-7 etc.  But I'm curious about all variants.  Can someone summarize what the different variants are good/bad at, and which ones are generally considered "the best" for dogfighting, although I am aware this is subjective.  Please and thanks.

Edited September 8, 2018 by pegg00

[Barnacles]

E7 manual radiators (all other 109s  in game have automatic radiators). Relative to the later 109s can turn very well but you're looking at much slower speeds and climb rate. 109 f2 faster with centerline armament. F4 a more powerful engine and 20mm cannon as standard. The Fs turn well but not quite as well as the E7. The Gs have very similar performance to the f4 whilst being slight heavier and hence not as good as turning. Exception is the g14 which has methanol water injection which gives it a much improved high speed and climb rate below 5000m. The 190s basically go like this a5 slighty heavier and slight faster than A3. A8 heavier and slightly faster than a5.

[JtD]

You can find a lot of information about the in game behaviour in this topic. It contains the info given by the devs, performance figures and tips and tricks.

 

The general trend with the German aircraft is, the later the version, the heavier, more powerful and better armed they become. For dancing take earlier versions, for smashing later ones.

[Finkeren]

Hmmmm do you mean “best” in absolute terms (comparing one 109/190 to another) or are we looking at how well they perform against their contemporary opponents?

 

My “absolute” tier list would look like this:

 

Bf 109:

 

G14

F4

G2

G4

G6

F2

E7

 

Fw 190:

 

A5

A3

A8

 

The “context specific” tier list woul look like this:

 

Bf 109:

 

F4 (1941/42)

G2 (1942)

F2 (1941)

G14 (1944/45)

E7 (1941)

G4 (1943)

G6 (1943/44)

 

Fw 190:

 

A3 (1942)

A5 (1943)

A8 (1944/45)

 

[pegg00]

47 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

Hmmmm do you mean “best” in absolute terms (comparing one 109/190 to another) or are we looking at how well they perform against their contemporary opponents?

 

My “absolute” tier list would look like this:

 

Bf 109:

 

G14

F4

G2

G4

G6

F2

E7

 

Fw 190:

 

A5

A3

A8

 

The “context specific” tier list woul look like this:

 

Bf 109:

 

F4 (1941/42)

G2 (1942)

F2 (1941)

G14 (1944/45)

E7 (1941)

G4 (1943)

G6 (1943/44)

 

Fw 190:

 

A3 (1942)

A5 (1943)

A8 (1944/45)

 

Top is better right? Thanks for this. Gives me a starting point. Why is A-8 your worst Fw-190? I'be been enjoying it, 1 hit kills everyone. Same with bf-109 G-14?

Edited September 8, 2018 by pegg00

[LeLv76_Erkki]

A-8 isnt performance wise a very major upgrade over A-5, but faces considerably more capable enemies. In game, for the time being, it also has a major overheating issue that is very likely a either a bug or a mistake by the devs(considering the engine and cooling are virtually the same as in A-5). Similarly G-14 is the top 109 performance wise but it faces planes that are faster than it such as P-51, while the older F-4 is in superior to every Allied fighter in 1941 and 1942.

[Finkeren]

24 minutes ago, pegg00 said:

Top is better right? Thanks for this. Gives me a starting point. Why is A-8 your worst Fw-190? I'be been enjoying it, 1 hit kills everyone. Same with bf-109 G-14?

 

The A8 is not the “worst” overall. It is the most capable bomber killer in the sim, the most versatile fighter-bomber and is an excellent hit-and-run fighter. 

 

The question however was specifically about the best dogfighter, and there the heavier A8 comes up short compared to its lighter siblings.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I think you could take a lecture course on the differences between these aircraft. 

 

The rule of thumb is that as time went to they got heavier, more powerful, more armed and less manuverable.

 

The F4 for example has a good balance of performance and many RL and sim pilots see/saw it as the best 109,

[MasserME262]

I was flying the F4 today and man, its a pure beast. Kind of "jack of all trades", can do turn-fighting if required, but its good for BnZ tactics (that climb rate is ridiculously good).

I perform much better in it than in any FW (109's are easier than 190's)

[PatrickAWlson]

But imagine an F4 in mid 1944.  Just too slow. First and foremost the fighters had to at least approximate their rivals in speed.  If you failed in that regard your enemy could simply dictate the terms of engagement. 

 

Dogfights happened, but it was mostly see, attack, kill before they even knew you were there.  If you have speed, dive and climb you could sacrifice a bit of maneuverability.

 

Anyhow, back to the original question: the German planes had the biggest advantage 1941 - 1943.  From late 1943 on the western allies got the edge and the Russians were catching up.  That means that the F4 and A3 will be the best in their time.  The A8 and G6 were showing their age in terms of fighter vs. fighter.

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by PatrickAWlson

[pegg00]

Thanks for all the info guys, very interesting stuff that I wasn't aware of!

[D3adCZE]

On 9/8/2018 at 11:06 PM, LeLv76_Erkki said:

A-8 isnt performance wise a very major upgrade over A-5, but faces considerably more capable enemies. In game, for the time being, it also has a major overheating issue that is very likely a either a bug or a mistake by the devs(considering the engine and cooling are virtually the same as in A-5). Similarly G-14 is the top 109 performance wise but it faces planes that are faster than it such as P-51, while the older F-4 is in superior to every Allied fighter in 1941 and 1942.

Dont forget that G14 has bugged engine where it cannot hold 1.7 ATA up to 5km.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

3 minutes ago, CSAF-D3adCZE said:

Dont forget that G14 has bugged engine where it cannot hold 1.7 ATA up to 5km.

 

True it underperforms but in my test top speed was still impressive 650 km/h at 5000 m(normal atmosphere) which is only 10 km -ish off of likely RL performance. And I managed to climb from deck to 4000 m, starting to 300 km/h, averaging 28 m/s

[CountZero]

On 9/8/2018 at 2:31 PM, pegg00 said:

Okay hello everyone, I'm a pretty new player here.  I'm wondering what are the major differences between all the 109 and 190 variants.  I'm especially interested in the differences between the FW-190 A-5, A-3, & A-8, and the BF-109 G-14, F-4, E-7 etc.  But I'm curious about all variants.  Can someone summarize what the different variants are good/bad at, and which ones are generally considered "the best" for dogfighting, although I am aware this is subjective.  Please and thanks.

 

109F4 is best airplane on both side for rookies, its doing everthing good in df and if it starts to go wrong just climb away, and you can remove rear gard so you have good rear view, a lot of ammo, turns extra good at high speeds, has great view under gunsight so you can shoot at airplanes in turn and see them, climbs great, and performs best at altitudes you see fights in game, basicly it makes rookie players look like aces, G2 is great for high (F4 better at 5 and below) and + is you can just fly it on full power, and for extra late you just go for G14 as its best late airplane in game for now. Any new player should first start in 109F4 to get some confidnce as this plane forgives a lot of players mistakes. 

[Cpt_Siddy]

The current iteration of La-5FUN is more than a match fro A-8 and G14  

[CountZero]

20 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

The current iteration of La-5FUN is more than a match fro A-8 and G14  

 

only thing that is missing is corectly modeled impact of refraction like 190 has, and 2x23mm late model had, and it would be only airplane your realy need on VVS side ?

[Cpt_Siddy]

1 hour ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

only thing that is missing is corectly modeled impact of refraction like 190 has, and 2x23mm late model had, and it would be only airplane your realy need on VVS side ?

 

 

That would be cruel Hartmann abuse, i am sure PETA would not stand for that. 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[=621=Samikatz]

2 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

only thing that is missing is corectly modeled impact of refraction like 190 has, and 2x23mm late model had, and it would be only airplane your realy need on VVS side ?

 

I thought 23mms only appeared on the post-war La-9, Got a source for La-5s with 23mms?

[CountZero]

11 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

I thought 23mms only appeared on the post-war La-9, Got a source for La-5s with 23mms?

 

https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=554

and

[Guest deleted@134347]

if you fly MP none of this matters. MP is a sneak/pounce game. You noticed someone first? You have 95% chance of killing them.

 

If you want to dog fight on the purpose build MP dog fight servers (Berloga, etc) then I've seen some crazy skills with each of those planes. Except for may be F2. Honestly it's the worse of them all..

 

In SP? The rule is the faster the better, and that's simply because of the AI's lack of interest in maneuverability fights.

[JtD]

1 hour ago, =621=Samikatz said:

I thought 23mms only appeared on the post-war La-9, Got a source for La-5s with 23mms?

 

There were no La-5 with 23mm guns. If a source claims that, it's wrong. The YVa23 is way too large to be installed, the NS23 basically started production when the La-5 was phased out of it.

 

While more common on the La-7, late La-5's made use of the B20 cannon, but the NS23 was indeed used only with the La-9 and La-11.

[SCG_OpticFlow]

On 9/8/2018 at 3:31 PM, pegg00 said:

Okay hello everyone, I'm a pretty new player here.  I'm wondering what are the major differences between all the 109 and 190 variants.  I'm especially interested in the differences between the FW-190 A-5, A-3, & A-8, and the BF-109 G-14, F-4, E-7 etc.  But I'm curious about all variants.  Can someone summarize what the different variants are good/bad at, and which ones are generally considered "the best" for dogfighting, although I am aware this is subjective.  Please and thanks.

 

109s are more suited against fighters, while 190s are more heavily armed but less maneuverable and do better against bombers and IL-2s. My favorite 109 is the F4 and many players fly it even when later models are available because its lighter and turns better, especially at low, near stalling speed. From the 190s, the A3 is the lightest and most nimble, A5 is faster, especially on winter maps with radiators nearly closed and seems to fly a bit smoother.  The FW-190s are generally more suitable for experienced pilots with much less margin for error.

[Dr_Molem]

190s are for sure better suited against bombers, but are they really less maneuverable than 109s ? I don't think so...

[Bremspropeller]

The best 109 is a 190.

[PatrickAWlson]

7 hours ago, Dr_Molem said:

190s are for sure better suited against bombers, but are they really less maneuverable than 109s ? I don't think so...

 

Only if you define maneuverable as sustained horizontal turning.  

[ZachariasX]

10 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

The best 109 is a 190.

Only late models. In 1939 the 109 was much better.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

53 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Only late models. In 1939 the 109 was much better.

 

I don't think there was a 190 in 1939 lol

[Finkeren]

10 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

 

I don't think there was a 190 in 1939 lol

 

I think that was the point.

[MiloMorai]

First flight of the Fw190 was June 1 1939.

[ZachariasX]

21 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

First flight of the Fw190 was June 1 1939.

Ok, you had me there. So it was the Jumo powered 109 that was best then. No wonder, a supplier that doesn't cheat on emissions. That's quality.

[CountZero]

18 hours ago, JtD said:

 

There were no La-5 with 23mm guns. If a source claims that, it's wrong. The YVa23 is way too large to be installed, the NS23 basically started production when the La-5 was phased out of it.

 

While more common on the La-7, late La-5's made use of the B20 cannon, but the NS23 was indeed used only with the La-9 and La-11.

 

ah thats sad to here ?

 

did late Yaks have 23 i see on net also that they used them, its now my only hope to see some late war salt collector when la5 and 7 are out of the mix  

[JtD]

Historically, 23mm cannons were installed in LaGG-3 and Yak-9 models. The Yak-9UT would be the best performing model of those, but it was a 1945 aircraft and I'm not sure it saw service. The rest performs no better than the LaGG-3 and Yak models we have in game.

[Zoring]

I have a question lads, why does the G series109s get slower and slower? I understand they got heavier, because of the heavier more powerful engines, but why does that translate to less speed?

 

Also at 6000m the best speed I can get in testing out of unloaded 109G6 is TAS is 561km/h at full boost, whilst Wikipedia (yes i know) lists the cruise speed at that alt at 590km/h and a top speed of 640km/h, i understand there discrepancies and even if Wikipedia is inaccurate that is 100km/h difference a huge margain. What do i have wrong here?

[Finkeren]

1 minute ago, Zoring said:

I have a question lads, why does the G series109s get slower and slower? I understand they got heavier, because of the heavier more powerful engines, but why does that translate to less speed?

 

Also at 6000m the best speed I can get in testing out of unloaded 109G6 is TAS is 561km/h at full boost, whilst Wikipedia (yes i know) lists the cruise speed at that alt at 590km/h and a top speed of 640km/h, i understand there discrepancies and even if Wikipedia is inaccurate that is 100km/h difference a huge margain. What do i have wrong here?

 

Sounds like something is off with your conversion math. What IAS -> TAS conversion formula are you using?

 

Also: Did you remember to test under standard atmospheric conditions on an autumn map?

 

The top speed of the G6 is lower than any 109 since the F2, but not by that much.

[JtD]

44 minutes ago, Zoring said:

I have a question lads, why does the G series109s get slower and slower? I understand they got heavier, because of the heavier more powerful engines, but why does that translate to less speed?

 

They also got draggier with extra bulges (guns fairings, wheel fairings) and larger, unretractable tail wheels. It adds up to perceivable losses.

[EAF19_Marsh]

And ugly - do not forget the speed loss from ugly. No coincidence that the G-10 and K-4 (not as ugly) reverse this trend.

 

It's just Nature's way.

[Eicio]

I've got a question about the fw 190 A5 ground attack version and the A8 :

 

First I do find both and especially the late one a bit... "sluggish", however they both have a boost but I quite don't understand what it does.

 

I mean that the A8 has a 30min combat power, a 3min emergency power but if I remembered correctly the specifications say that the boost can be used for something like 10 min emergency power.

 

So does it mean that with boost activated you've got 13 min of emergency power ?

 

I'd see the plane quite in another way if it was the case.

[blitze]

Not sure but I got to fly in my career a G6 last night for the first time in a bomber intercept.  30mm was a lovely addition and although it felt a little heavier in flight, WEP is longer duration and she danced nicely in the sky bringing down 5 B20's and dancing with their P39 escorts well.  If I had been more frugal with ammo on the B20's, some of the P39's I danced with would not have stayed airborne for long.  I held them in my sights for quite a bit but was no ammo and trying to get my flight to engage them as the rest of the B20's had run on home.

 

My flight has remedial shooting skills leaving me the brunt of the work when it comes to engagements and much sorrow when we meet a flight of Yaks. )

 

Oops, forgot to mention I really enjoyed the ground handling of the G6 too.  Much easier to manage on landings and taxiing.

Edited September 13, 2018 by blitze
additional thought

[SCG_ErwinP]

On 9/13/2018 at 8:35 AM, Eicio said:

So does it mean that with boost activated you've got 13 min of emergency power ?

No, at most 10 minutes, equal to G14 and depends on the current engine temperature, maybe less.

[adler_1]

how much heavier was the FW190 A5 against the A3 ?