No more ammunition - supposed to do ??

[NiiranenVR]

Hi 

In a Dogfight SP I shoot a plane down , miss another one course he's a Better pilot than me ..... Im still Alive  ....

Were on patrol .....

In real life  ..... Will the plane then return home or contuniue patrol without ammunition ???

[Cybermat47]

I’d imagine that they’d return to base. 

 

However, in the Blazing Steppe official scripted campaign, the narrative makes mention of Soviet pilots being ordered to patrol even after expending all their ammo. I’m not sure how accurate that is, but the campaigns are made with historical accuracy in mind.

[Thad]

Salutations,

 

If the flight is for recon... it may continue its route.

 

A fighter sweep etc. would probably head for home especially if it is alone.

[Ehret]

IRL you would be flying in pairs. Even without ammo you would be very useful as a wingman; sharing risks, helping with tactics, and keeping awareness up. The enemy would assume that you both could shot - it's just prudent.

[Finkeren]

Yeah IRL you’re nearly always part of a squad, much better for all parties to continue with the mission if a single aircraft runs put of ammo. Not only would you be safer in the formation than on on your own, you could still be useful, even in combat where you could put pressure on the enemy, even if you couldn’t fire at them. You may be out of ammo, but they don’t know that. 

 

If half the squadron was running low on ammo, it might be time for everyone to turn back as one formation. 

 

The only time where a single plane might opt to turn back alone would be, if there was a serious risk that it would not be physically able to fly the entire mission. It might be fuel sortage (due to leaks or having burned too much of it during combat), the pilot being wounded or the engine being damaged. In all other cases it would be better to stay with the formation.

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Ok so running out of ammo is actually extremely rare IRL. For example the first time a British Army Air Core pilot went "Winchester" was in an Apache in the naughties in Afghanistan.  The pilot was a awarded with the DFC for staying on station to protect troops that were under heavy fire. She then landed and strapped a wounded troop on to the side pod of the Apache and evacuated him. WTF 

 

But that is the kinda situation needed to run out of ammo.

[Finkeren]

1 hour ago, AeroAce said:

Ok so running out of ammo is actually extremely rare IRL. For example the first time a British Army Air Core pilot went "Winchester" was in an Apache in the naughties in Afghanistan.  The pilot was a awarded with the DFC for staying on station to protect troops that were under heavy fire. She then landed and strapped a wounded troop on to the side pod of the Apache and evacuated him. WTF 

 

But that is the kinda situation needed to run out of ammo.

 

I have an extremely hard time believing, that expending your ammunition didn’t happen at least occasionally in WW2. 

 

Especially in the VVS and RAF where many fighters had very short total firing time on their guns and lacked ammo counters it has to have happened from time to time.

 

But obviously it happened much less frequently than we see in sims like this. The fighter doctrines of just about all air forces discouraged long combat engagements, so air battles were generally  very brief ranging from mere seconds to a few minutes at most, and it was far from every combat that you’d even get an opportunity to lay your guns on a target.

[BOO]

44 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

Ok so running out of ammo is actually extremely rare IRL. For example the first time a British Army Air Core pilot went "Winchester" was in an Apache in the naughties in Afghanistan.  The pilot was a awarded with the DFC for staying on station to protect troops that were under heavy fire. She then landed and strapped a wounded troop on to the side pod of the Apache and evacuated him. WTF 

 

But that is the kinda situation needed to run out of ammo.

The British Army Air Corp was unlikely to go Winchester much before that though since they only got the Apache  (or any form of helicopter were the pilot/weapons officer was in charge of a gun) operationally in 2005.

[unreasonable]

21 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

 

I have an extremely hard time believing, that expending your ammunition didn’t happen at least occasionally in WW2. 

 

Especially in the VVS and RAF where many fighters had very short total firing time on their guns and lacked ammo counters it has to have happened from time to time.

 

But obviously it happened much less frequently than we see in sims like this. The fighter doctrines of just about all air forces discouraged long combat engagements, so air battles were generally  very brief ranging from mere seconds to a few minutes at most, and it was far from every combat that you’d even get an opportunity to lay your guns on a target.

 

I agree - certainly Battle of Britain era Spitfires and Hurricanes had only about ten seconds firing time IIRC, which could all be used up in a couple of passes while attacking a bomber formation.  If that context immediate RTB is the only action that makes any sense at all.  If you are a long way into hostile territory I can see a case for staying with a formation, but if there has been a fight people often found themselves on their own anyway.

 

David Crook's logbook entries mention running out of ammo a couple of times. 

[NiiranenVR]

If the 2'cond plane had kept hos plane straight , then I had not ran out of ammunition ??

Sure , if the plane or myself are damaged its Better RTB ?

Im not so prof yet , so about be or have a wingman s out of my mind - but small step ahead ......  IT was a patrol in pwcg , and after I let the russian pilot go, I ser No other plane and RTB 

THANX ?

[Poochnboo]

3 hours ago, AeroAce said:

British Army Air Core

Army Air Corps.

3 hours ago, AeroAce said:

British Army Air Core

 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

1 hour ago, Poochnboo said:

Army Air Corps.

 

 

DOH 

 

Well spotted! !!

[CanadaOne]

Out of ammo??

 

 

 

[InProgress]

This I guess ?

 

https://youtu.be/xm3tUFVNBCg

 

 

Edited September 1, 2018 by InProgress

[69th_chuter]

16 hours ago, Finkeren said:

 

I have an extremely hard time believing, that expending your ammunition didn’t happen at least occasionally in WW2. 

 

Especially in the VVS and RAF where many fighters had very short total firing time on their guns and lacked ammo counters it has to have happened from time to time.

  

But obviously it happened much less frequently than we see in sims like this. The fighter doctrines of just about all air forces discouraged long combat engagements, so air battles were generally  very brief ranging from mere seconds to a few minutes at most, and it was far from every combat that you’d even get an opportunity to lay your guns on a target.

 

 

The British Army Air Corps came into being in 1942 and for the most part flew gliders.

 

Years ago I worked with an old guy, Scottie, that was in the RAF as a mechanic's assistant (he was 17) during the BoB and then he was transferred into the newly formed AAC to be the one APU mechanic of a squadron.  He says he always got a kick out of seeing peoples' reactions to his claim of being an engine mechanic in a glider squadron.  We were 747/DC-10 heavy maintenance mechanics at the time, he's long since retired.  Hope he's still around somewhere ...

Edited September 2, 2018 by chuter

[senseispcc]

Ammo spend, in rare case you try to impress the enemy but if realist Return To Base so has to fight another day. 

Bomber do it when they have dropped their bomb load because hit or miss their mission was to drop their bombs.

If your plane is hit and is not an effective combatant anymore, do the same try to Return To Base.

Follow orders.

Edited September 3, 2018 by senseispcc

[-TBC-AeroAce]

In planes without ammo counters I often get paranoid about how much I have left and rtb. I must have landed a couple of times with a high amount left. 

[Finkeren]

I must say, that I don't get this "if you're out of ammo rtb immediately" mentality. As I see it, you are always safer near your squad mates than you are on your own. If you get jumped by enemy fighters on your way home alone, which can happen in your own airspace just as well as over enemy territory, you are royally screwed. If you stay in formation, you can have your team mates protect you, let the bombers attract the enemy's attention (if it's an escort mission), you can even be helpful in combat by frustrating the enemy's attacks and act as "bait" and drag enemy aircraft towards your squad mates. And if things go badly, you have a much better chance of slipping away unnoticed, if your squad mates are nearby.

[unreasonable]

41 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

I must say, that I don't get this "if you're out of ammo rtb immediately" mentality. As I see it, you are always safer near your squad mates than you are on your own. If you get jumped by enemy fighters on your way home alone, which can happen in your own airspace just as well as over enemy territory, you are royally screwed. If you stay in formation, you can have your team mates protect you, let the bombers attract the enemy's attention (if it's an escort mission), you can even be helpful in combat by frustrating the enemy's attacks and act as "bait" and drag enemy aircraft towards your squad mates. And if things go badly, you have a much better chance of slipping away unnoticed, if your squad mates are nearby.

 

You may be safer but your squadron mates are less safe. An unarmed fighter plane is dead weight, a liability to it's formation, since it cannot cover anyone effectively or defend itself.   The idea of using planes as bait is the sort of thing you might do as a part of a carefully prearranged plan, before the fight.  It is not the sort of thing you make up on the spot after a chaotic fight in which you have expended all your ammunition. 

 

Apart from anything else, if you have been in a fight long enough to use all your ammo, the chances are that your formation is scattered all over the sky and might well be still engaged with enemy aircraft.  Are you going to fly towards some unidentified aircraft hoping that it was on your side?  The whole premise that you would even be able to rejoin is doubtful.

 

Reading "No Parachute" for example, on WW1, the standard operating procedure is very clear: if your gun is jammed and cannot be cleared, you leave the formation and RTB.  Same principle. 

 

 

[[N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha]

From what I read, unless they were very near base a plane out of ammo, damaged, low on fuel, ect, would return with a wingman to cover him. Unless deep in enemy territory such as the deep heavy bomber raids, then they stayed with the formation, and could sort of take cover with the bombers.

[InProgress]

17 hours ago, AeroAce said:

In planes without ammo counters I often get paranoid about how much I have left and rtb. I must have landed a couple of times with a high amount left. 

Just count the shots

[PatrickAWlson]

I would imagine that it is situational.  If you break off and RTB then you are alone without ammo.  Might be safer to continue flying with your squadron mates.  If you are over your own territory going home makes sense.  

[Ehret]

15 hours ago, unreasonable said:

You may be safer but your squadron mates are less safe. An unarmed fighter plane is dead weight, a liability to it's formation, since it cannot cover anyone effectively or defend itself.   The idea of using planes as bait is the sort of thing you might do as a part of a carefully prearranged plan, before the fight.  It is not the sort of thing you make up on the spot after a chaotic fight in which you have expended all your ammunition.

 

IMHO, more like the un-armed fighter can not provide to the mission's goal effectively. Mutual safety in numbers don't require everyone to be dangerous to work. The affected would be ordered RTB for his sake and to make more fighters available as soon as possible for the next sortie.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Ehret

[1./KG4_ArthurMimo]

For a patrol it might make sense to continue your mission even without ammunition. You've still got your eyes and can report threats, and the enemy doesn't know that you are factually harmless - you're still a perceived threat.