Early G-Suits in Bodenplatte timeframe?

[Guest deleted@83466]

I was reading some history last night, and came upon the topic of G-suits being issued to P-51 and P-47 pilots starting in late 1944.  Is this true? I had thought these kinds of things were only available long after the war.  How widespread were these, and does anyone know how effective they were?  If they were common, would it be appropriate to suggest this as a configuration option for certain USAAF planes in Bodenplatte?

 

p.s.  FW aircraft had inclined seats which were said to slightly improve G tolerance for the pilot.  Is this already simulated?

[Legioneod]

G suits were used, not sure if RAF used them but I know P-51 and P-47 pilots did. It'd be nice to see them in-game and would be rather simple to implement imo.

[Pierre64]

Berger G-3 g-suits

 

[Sgt_Joch]

yes, G-suits were fairly common in 44-45.  In Manrho and Putz's "Bodenplatte" book, you can see many photos of U.S. pilots in G-suits as well as many casual mentions of G-suits in pilot accounts of the battle. It seems to have been a fairly common piece of kit.

 

 

 

 

[LukeFF]

https://heritageflightgeardisplays.wordpress.com/2010/03/27/anti-g-suits-in-ww2-usaaf-service/

 

Turns out there were British Anti-G suits as well, originally developed in Canada:

 

https://ingeniumcanada.org/innovation/story/franks-flying-suit

Edited August 30, 2018 by LukeFF

[Pict]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

Turns out there were British Anti-G suits as well, originally developed in Canada:

 

There was also one the RAF used that was developed in Australia, called the "Cotton G-suit" after it's designer Frank Cotton 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-suit

 

The had one on display at the Royal Australian Navy Fleet Air Arm Museum in Nowra New South Wales, about a 2 hour drive south of Sydney, great little museum, worth a look http://aviationspottersonline.com/fleet-air-arm-museum-nowra-telling-the-story-of-the-royal-australian-navy/

I took a few photos of it, but as it was inside a glass case the results weren't great, if I can find a good one I'll upload it.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Pict

[Guest deleted@83466]

Did some more reading and came upon this Bud Anderson quote referring to the time he was with 357th FG.:

 

"With the G-suits, we could fly a little harder, turn a little tighter.  We could pull maybe one extra G now, which gave us an edge.  There was no resistance to wearing them as we understood that wearing them was the same as making the airplane better." (emphasis mine)

 

So that would be pretty cool if we could get that as a loadout option for certain aircraft, like maybe the P-51 and P-47.   Being able to pull an extra G or so in some of those fights that spiral down to the deck would be a big deal.

Edited August 31, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[Cpt_Siddy]

Equip G-suit option, add +- 50kg and give +1 G tolerance. 

 

Should not be hard thing to add. 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

To implement this we will need quick time events in g maneuvers to make sure we keep up the sharp breathing! If you forget to press Square, Triangle and X in the correct pattern you black out!

Edited August 31, 2018 by AeroAce

[Legioneod]

45 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

To implement this we will need quick time events in g maneuvers to make sure we keep up the sharp breathing! If you forget to press Square, Triangle and X in the correct pattern you black out!

Implement this for every aircraft and we're golden.

 

Here are some key controls.

 

Space Bar: Tense muscles

shift: press to inhale, release to exhale.

 

Honestly I don't know why this isn't already implemented in the game. This would bring the immersion full circle.

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Legioneod

[angus26]

1 hour ago, Legioneod said:

Implement this for every aircraft and we're golden.

 

Here are some key controls.

 

Space Bar: Tense muscles

shift: press to inhale, release to exhale.

 

Honestly I don't know why this isn't already implemented in the game. This would bring the immersion full circle.

 

I can’t tell if you’re joking or if you think this is even remotely a good idea.

[Gambit21]

Pressing the space bar to breath - now that’s funny.

Maybe we should have to do that all the time - or your pilot suffocates and dies lol

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Equip G-suit option, add +- 50kg and give +1 G tolerance. 

 

Should not be hard thing to add. 

 

I highly doubt a G-suit and associated gear would add over 100 pounds of weight to the plane.

Edited August 31, 2018 by LukeFF

[Haza]

42 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Pressing the space bar to breath - now that’s funny.

Maybe we should have to do that all the time - or your pilot suffocates and dies lol

 

Well I will just have to pretend to be Douglas Bader, if the developers implement keys for G suits!

[JV69badatflyski]

6 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Implement this for every aircraft and we're golden.

 

Here are some key controls.

 

Space Bar: Tense muscles

shift: press to inhale, release to exhale.

 

Honestly I don't know why this isn't already implemented in the game. This would bring the immersion full circle.

 

Implement first the difference in G's for the pilots in german planes....?

[kramer]

23 minutes ago, JV69badatflyski said:

Implement first the difference in G's for the pilots in german planes....?

Not all German planes had cockpits increasing G tolerances, fighters like Bf109, Fw190, Me262 had, but bombers hadn't.

[Cybermat47]

24 minutes ago, JV69badatflyski said:

Implement first the difference in G's for the pilots in german planes....?

 

What do you mean?

 

If you experience higher Gs in German planes, that’s probably because they’re a lot faster than the Soviet ones.

[kramer]

No, in German fighters like 109's, 190's or 262's pilot sat with his legs straight and his torso leaned back 20-30 degrees, similar to modern F-16 due to the same reason. For F-16 they even developed short tensometric stick to make pilot comfortable with this inclination and extreme G-forces

 

In DCS  Bf109's and Fw190's pilots are modeled to be more resistant to G-forces due to this fact (about 1G)

 

That's why Mustang pilots were flying in G-suits since D-day.

 

The angle is decisive when it comes to G-forces tolerance.

Edited August 31, 2018 by kramer

[Cpt_Siddy]

5 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

I highly doubt a G-suit and associated gear would add over 100 pounds of weight to the plane.

 

Hence the (+-), it means error margin. Id imagine 50kg is the upper limit for it. 

[MiloMorai]

The Spitfire pilot could raise his feet on the rudder pedals to obtain a similar position as 109 and 190 pilots.

 

[Talon_]

Not really a noticeable difference in back angle between the Dora and the P-51D. A couple of degrees at most. They just drew a human neck better in the Mustang manual.

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Talon_

[Garven]

Read somewhere a long time ago (if I recall correctly) that Mustang pilots were occasionally returning to base with popped rivets and distorted wings once G suits started to be issued.

[Legioneod]

12 hours ago, angus26 said:

I can’t tell if you’re joking or if you think this is even remotely a good idea.

Are you kidding me, this is a great idea. Imagine the immersion you'd get by having to control your breathing and tense your muscles.?

Edited August 31, 2018 by Legioneod

[303_Bies]

P-51 had inclined seat.

P-47 and Corsair had straight seats.

P-51 (and P-47) were using G-suits since summer 1944.

Edited August 31, 2018 by bies

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Has any one got a good source of info/pics of the early g suits. It would make for some good commuting reading. 

[Cpt_Cool]

3 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Are you kidding me, this is a great idea. Imagine the immersion you'd get by having to control your breathing and tense your muscles.?

 

Probably more of a WT gamer. The true Simulation Pilots get it.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

[Gambit21]

16 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Are you kidding me, this is a great idea. Imagine the immersion you'd get by having to control your breathing and tense your muscles.?

 

We can add blinking as well.

 

If you don’t hit the ‘blink’ key every few seconds, your pilots eyes become irritated and vision suffers.

 

 

[Legioneod]

Just now, Gambit21 said:

 

We can add blinking as well.

 

If you don’t hit the ‘blink’ key every few seconds, your pilots eyes become irritated and vision suffers.

 

 

Genius!!! Just the thought of all that immersion is killing me. Can't wait to have to work even harder for my kill.

[Pict]

Found my photos of the Australian Frank Cotton G-suit

 

 

 

The development of the Australian anti-G suit  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2178602

"Prof. Frank Cotton of Sydney University, Australia, designed the world's first successful gas-operated anti-G suit. Research commenced late in 1940, and a suit was designed with rubber sacs covered externally by inextensible material. The sacs automatically inflated when G forces increased during flying. Initially tested on a centrifuge specially built at Sydney University, and then flight-tested in a Hurricane, Kittyhawks, and Spitfires, the suit provided about 2 G protection. The Canadians had earlier developed a water-filled suit, which the RAF adopted, but comparative trials in 1944 by the Royal Air Force concluded that: "There is no doubt the Cotton Suit gives the best protection." By the time the Cotton Aerodynamic Anti-G Suit was operational, Japanese attacks on Darwin had virtually ceased, and the suit was never used in combat. However, the principle of gas-inflatable bladders is still used in the modern anti-G suit."

 

Interesting .pdf article about Dr. Frank Cotton and his Anti G suit

http://sydney.edu.au/medicine/news/pubs/radiuscontents/2010/March/2010_1_cotton.pdf

 

More on Frank Cotton & early G suits in general

http://fly.historicwings.com/2012/11/the-anti-g-suit/

Edited August 31, 2018 by Pict

[Gambit21]

7 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Genius!!! Just the thought of all that immersion is killing me. Can't wait to have to work even harder for my kill.

 

I’m becoming giddy at the thought of all this increased immersion as well.

 

A finger tapping the heartbeat key ‘tap tap’...’tap tap...a finger tapping the blink key, and a finger or two working the breathing keys. 

 

How did we not have this years ago?

I mean I’m pretty sure that in a real WWII aircraft (maybe modern aircraft as well) the pilot is blinking and breathing...at least in the late war period. 

[Pict]

15 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

I mean I’m pretty sure that in a real WWII aircraft (maybe modern aircraft as well) the pilot is blinking and breathing...

 

...don't forget farting, as this would increase the pressure within the anti-G suit ?

Edited August 31, 2018 by Pict

[Talon_]

I dunno about you guys but I'm perfectly happy simulating blinking and breathing the way I simulate moving the throttle levers and joystick - by actually doing it.

 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Any hoo puting these really very excellent added emersion ideas to one side, after a doctorate level research session on wiki it says that the early G-suits gave 2g protection.  I guess that means it would reduce the effects by 2g? As in if you was pulling 8g you would have the effects of 6g.......????

 

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by AeroAce

[Gambit21]

5 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

I dunno about you guys but I'm perfectly happy simulating blinking and breathing the way I simulate moving the throttle levers and joystick - by actually doing it.

 

 

Lighten up Francise.

[Cpt_Siddy]

13 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

I’m becoming giddy at the thought of all this increased immersion as well.

 

A finger tapping the heartbeat key ‘tap tap’...’tap tap...a finger tapping the blink key, and a finger or two working the breathing keys. 

 

 

Correct way to have immersion in G realm is to introduce a new device that measures your sphincter muscle clench force in turns. 

More force, the better the G tolerance 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

If we has live telemetry output I would probably try to hook up one of those electric mussel tonners to make me spaz out at high g and while we are at it make something that could make you sense side slip physically. .

 

 

One can only dream. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, RoflSeal said:

 

That is some good info there, especially the part about G-suits being optional for P-47/P-51 in 9th AF and mandatory for 8th.

[Cpt_Siddy]

Found some early Brazilian G-suit model pictures, not sure what year tho...

Edited August 31, 2018 by Cpt_Siddy

[Cybermat47]

Interesting stuff. Amazing how fast technology advances during wartime.