Realism of zoom

[purK]

tbh I find it easier to aim without zooming in so much. Too much zoom throws off my perception of when and where to lead my shots.

[OrLoK]

I love the zoom.

 

I never use it when firing on an enemy as its too distracting and too easy to lose the target.

 

A cheat? nope.

 

I have both Track Ir and VR, from when I was working, and I still think TiR uses have a far superior advantage. If anything, i'd say Track Ir was more "cheaty" but its too firmly ingrained in Simming circles to be ousted.

 

I'd rather  fight a VR user than a trackir user :).

 

I mainly use the spotting to sight distant airfields.

[Voidhunger]

32 minutes ago, pfrances said:

 

The owl-necks of Track IR are what keeps me out of multiplayer. Way too easy for those guys to check their 6.

 

True, but honestly without Track ir your simulator experience is reduced by 50%.

Track ir is a must buy.

I remember when I played ROF without track ir and I was quite good at mp.

Now without it its impossible to play

[MasserME262]

37 minutes ago, pfrances said:

 

The owl-necks of Track IR are what keeps me out of multiplayer. Way too easy for those guys to check their 6.

I check my six using the mouse, just like a real PRO ?

[-TBC-AeroAce]

58 minutes ago, Hot_Dog said:

Anybody, who thinks, that using zoom is like a cheating realy doesnt know what he is talking about! Just think a little bit please, before say anything!

 

On max zoom in game, you have aproximately same resolution as IRL in case you have monitor, where you cant see individual pixel. On min zoom in game, you have aproximately same FoV as IRL. But IRL, you have both at same time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In game, you have to choose between good resolution or good FoV at a time!!!!!!!!!! So zoom really isnt a cheating, it is just way, how you can aproach as close as possibe to IRL with current monitors, but still IRL you have much bigger advantage...

 

 

This^^^

 

Don't sweat it dude, this convo has gone on in one form or another for ages. You will just end up banging your head against a wall if you listen to those who say it is cheating. 

[40plus]

45 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

 

True, but honestly without Track ir your simulator experience is reduced by 50%.

Track ir is a must buy.

I remember when I played ROF without track ir and I was quite good at mp.

Now without it its impossible to play

 

I totally get it. Some form of head tracking is an absolute must.

 

I play in VR and anything past, say, a 100 degree look to the left/right requites me to shift in my seat, even then best I can do is maybe 150 degrees.

 

Would be great to see a limitation on Track IR to introduce a limit and a slow down in the transition past 100 degrees.

Or not, it's not a game killing problem, just a nice to have to level the playing field a smidge.

[InProgress]

By realism i meant size, when you look at your sight on max zoom it's half of your head looks kind of funny.

btw did pilots use binoculars? Flying and looking through it to spot stuff.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

checking 6 is by far the quickest with a saved position (instantly moving) snap view

[blitze]

Full zoom on my 27" monitor would approximately be 100% scale of the cockpit.  For us lesser people with smaller monitors, things like zoom and even for some, tags, help us enjoy the sim.

 

Maybe when I get my Pimax8K with 200 degrees FOV and decent resolution with something that can drive it, I can then ditch zoom.  Till then, you can try to pry it out of my cold dead hands but you will Never take my Zoom. ))

[-TBC-AeroAce]

15 minutes ago, pfrances said:

 

Would be great to see a limitation on Track IR to introduce a limit and a slow down in the transition past 100 degrees.

Or not, it's not a game killing problem, just a nice to have to level the playing field a smidge.

 

This would not work as it is not 1 to 1 tracking.

[Gambit21]

47 minutes ago, blitze said:

Full zoom on my 27" monitor would approximately be 100% scale of the cockpit.  For us lesser people with smaller monitors, things like zoom and even for some, tags, help us enjoy the sim.

 

 

Scale and distance compression/magnification are two different things however.

[CSW_Hot_Dog]

1 hour ago, InProgress said:

btw did pilots use binoculars? Flying and looking through it to spot stuff.

 

Really sorry, dont want to be rude, but if you say this, than this is nice example that you really know nothing about this matter. You know nothing about field of view, about resolution and level of detail, about how 3D scene of game is displayed on 2D flat monitor, about your eye retina and so on. There is video on the first page of this topic, i did not see it, but i bet from its title, that it tries to explain, what i wrote in my previous post. If you know something about it, you would not compare ingame zoom with using a binoculars...

 

PS: Try to look at some aircraft, or vehicle in game lets say from 500m, max zoomed. Then go outside and look at different airplane or car from that distance with naked eye and compare level of detail, what you are able to see ingame vs IRL. Just do it please:-)

Edited August 27, 2018 by Hot_Dog

[Gambit21]

6 minutes ago, Hot_Dog said:

 

Really sorry, dont want to be rude, but if you say this, than this is nice example that you really dont know nothing about this matter.

 

He doesn't know "nothing"...so he knows quite a bit then?

[CSW_Hot_Dog]

8 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

He doesn't know "nothing"...so he knows quite a bit then?

Sorry, english is really not my native language, quite different from my native czech language where you can say it this way?. Corrected...

Edited August 27, 2018 by Hot_Dog

[Gambit21]

8 minutes ago, Hot_Dog said:

Sorry, english is really not my native language, quite different from my native czech language where you can say it this way. Corrected...

 

"know anything" "know little' etc.

That said for a second language you're dong better than I would.

Still he deserves more credit I think.

 

Now as for the subject, I'm of two minds about it.

I get what you're saying, and I get what the other side is saying....I'm not sure where the balance lies.

 

On one hand no, we don't see as well on a 2D monitor as we do in real life, that's just a fact.

On the other hand, everyone has the same limitations. Zoom/compressing distance, while I don't see it as a "cheat", since

anyone can do it, is also not a realistic or desirable fix IMHO.

 

That said I have no dog in the fight, however I'm not convinced that zoom is more "realistic"...I think that argument has a few holes in it...that said I'm open

to being corrected on the matter.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Gambit21

[InProgress]

What the hell are you talking about? I asked if pilots used binoculars in ww2. Your answer has nothing to do with my question.

[CSW_Hot_Dog]

13 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

"know anything" "know little' etc.

That said for a second language you're dong better than I would.

 

Now as for the subject, I'm of two minds about it.

I get what you're saying, and I get what the other side is saying....I'm not sure where the balance lies.

 

On one hand no, we don't see as well on a 2D monitor as we do in real life, that's just a fact.

On the other hand, everyone has the same limitations. Zoom/compressing distance, while I don't see it as a "cheat", since

anyone can do it, is also not a realistic or desirable fix IMHO.

 

That said I have no dog in the fight, however I'm not convinced that zoom is more "realistic"...I think that argument has a few holes in it...that said I'm open

to being corrected on the matter.

Ok, but lets say when you are flying full real online, you are not able to recognize type of aircraft without zoom at all. Its something like this:

 

• IRL from 300 - 500m, you see nicely, if there is red star, black cross, or anything else on the fuselage of the aircraft
• In game max zoom 300 - 500m, ok with some training, you can see somethink, but for me, totally worse then IRL (I have 1440p 27'' monitor)
• In game no zoom 300 - 500m, you can see nothink, few pixels maybe...

Edited August 27, 2018 by Hot_Dog

[40plus]

I use the zoom in VR because, as impressive and amazing the technology is, two pixels are not enough to ID a plane.

[Gambit21]

Just now, Hot_Dog said:

Ok, but lets say when you are flying full real online, you are not able to recognize type of aircraft without zoom at all. Its something like this:

 

Been there a hundred times...so you get closer.

 

Again, not saying anything against using zoom, I've used it.

Just not convinced it's 'realistic'

...and again, I might be wrong.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think I might be.

(pondering the zoom/magnification thing while writing a squadron history) thus dividing my attention....grrrrr.

 

back to work.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

This is still a better debate than WW1 simmers arguing whether teamspeak replicates hand signals or not.  :D

[Gambit21]

That got a laugh out of me.

[Requiem]

7 hours ago, pfrances said:

 

The owl-necks of Track IR are what keeps me out of multiplayer. Way too easy for those guys to check their 6.

To be fair, as @LeLv76_Erkki wrote, using a snap view is actually a faster and more precise way to check your six and gain situational awareness in general. It just feels more natural using TrackIR and is less jarring when switching your view around. Personally I felt I performed better in dogfights when only using snap views, but the satisfaction that comes when using TrackIR outweighs that aspect for me. It's actually made me a bit lazier so I started being bounced more often after using TrackIR as I have to lean in my seat and turn my head instead of just flicking the POV-Hat on my joystick to check six.

 

We're all gamers just sitting on a chair in front of a computer monitor buzzing around so compromises are made because making something harder does not make it more realistic and I believe the FOV change is a fair one to make. If targets could be rendered with detail and shape within visual ranges there would be no need for this feature. Until technology reaches that point though you should make use of it, but it comes with a decent drawback of losing situational awareness in terms of airplanes around you and cockpit references if you're maneuvering (speed/alt/etc).

 

[Artunius]

Yeah, I've never understood why folks always say TrackIR is a must. For a bit of immersion? Sure. Whenever I played a game with TrackIR, I found myself moving my head around thinking I was still wearing my hat or something. It became a strangely trained behavior. It's certainly not going to make you more competitive. You can throw all the gear you want at something, it's not going to make your tactics or way of thinking any better. You're just gonna throw in another handicap by having to learn how to use all the gear.

 

VR is also cool as hell, but it sure hurts your neck after a while of looking behind you, or straight up. It's really all more a matter of preference. 

 

In terms of zoom, it feels a bit cheap, but I guess it's basically the same as using binoculars?

Edited August 28, 2018 by Artunius

[Gambit21]

I run Track IR, but can fly just as well with the hat switch with WWII aircaft. I did that the entire time I flew 1946 back in the day, including online CoOps etc.

With WWI - RoF...no way - changes of direction happen much too quickly to keep up with using the hat switch.

[Artunius]

6 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

I run Track IR, but can fly just as well with the hat switch with WWII aircaft. I did that the entire time I flew 1946 back in the day, including online CoOps etc.

With WWI - RoF...no way - changes of direction happen much too quickly to keep up with using the hat switch.

 

Almost makes me want to try Flying Circus in VR. I would actually lose my target often with TrackIR, but with VR I get that realistic 1:1 head movement, and my wife laughing at me hilariously as I'm climbing all over my chair trying to look behind me.

[unreasonable]

8 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

"know anything" "know little' etc.

That said for a second language you're dong better than I would.

Still he deserves more credit I think.

 

Now as for the subject, I'm of two minds about it.

I get what you're saying, and I get what the other side is saying....I'm not sure where the balance lies.

 

On one hand no, we don't see as well on a 2D monitor as we do in real life, that's just a fact.

On the other hand, everyone has the same limitations. Zoom/compressing distance, while I don't see it as a "cheat", since

anyone can do it, is also not a realistic or desirable fix IMHO.

 

That said I have no dog in the fight, however I'm not convinced that zoom is more "realistic"...I think that argument has a few holes in it...that said I'm open

to being corrected on the matter.

 

Firstly, not everyone has the same limitations - a great deal depends on the size of the screen and how far away your eye is. Although people with larger screens tend to sit further away from them there is no doubt a benefit. A number of people have said that fully zoomed in was roughly equal to life size: for me now it is closer to normal zoom, full zoom being much larger than life.

 

Size is important!  An object's dimensions as seen by a viewer are directly proportional to it's distance.  Suppose you are looking at a given object in RL, and a representation on a monitor, where the angle the object subtends on the monitor is half that it subtends in RL.  The dimensions of the object on the monitor would be half that as perceived (edit in RL): so the object on the monitor would look twice as far away.  This could make it far more than twice as hard to see, depending on conditions, since the area would be only one quarter, reducing your ability to pick out contrast.

 

Zooming to get a RL angle is much more realistic than either having objects at a much lower or higher angle.  As previous posters have stated, you typically either can have a realistic fov or a realistic size of object, but on a screen we cannot get both at the same time.  Given that the majority of people are going to be playing on screens for the foreseeable future, meaning that VR is not a panacea to fix this issue, the only other ways to overcome the problem I can recall are the use of icons, pointers, or alternatively object scaling.  Icons etc are much more undesirable than zooming, if you prefer an uncluttered and "natural" look screen, while object scaling creates it's own problems: it now becomes impossible for people to judge actual distances.

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by unreasonable

[SharpeXB]

Varying your FOV is neither an advantage or disadvantage. You’re just trading one for the other. So it’s self regulating. 

Given the average monitor size, zoomed in is actually more like life sized than zoomed out. But it’s also about resolution and simulating 20/20 eyesight. We can’t increase the number of pixels on the screen so the only solution is making the image larger. Imagine an eye chart in the cockpit. At 1080p you’d never be able to pass the 20/20 test, the prerequisite for a fighter pilot. 

Avoiding the use of the zoom command does not make the sim more realistic. It greatly handicaps you compared to real life. 

 

Different sim. Same concept. 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2561114&postcount=220

Edited August 28, 2018 by SharpeXB

[[TWB]Sauerkraut-]

10 hours ago, Hot_Dog said:

Anybody, who thinks, that using zoom is like a cheating realy doesnt know what he is talking about! Just think a little bit please, before say anything!

 

On max zoom in game, you have aproximately same resolution as IRL in case you have monitor, where you cant see individual pixel. On min zoom in game, you have aproximately same FoV as IRL. But IRL, you have both at same time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In game, you have to choose between good resolution or good FoV at a time!!!!!!!!!! So zoom really isnt a cheating, it is just way, how you can aproach as close as possibe to IRL with current monitors, but still IRL you have much bigger advantage...

 

 

^^^^^^

This guy gets it. He said basically the same thing I said (albeit with more emotion and exclamation points).

Unless you have a monitor that covers your full 200 degree FOV, you will always be making some trade between first person presence and FOV. THIS IS WHY ZOOM IS NECESSARY.

[MasserME262]

4 hours ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

This is still a better debate than WW1 simmers arguing whether teamspeak replicates hand signals or not.  ?

well, for all those guys who wants "max" immersion and realism... Let me say that I fly a FW190 with a yoke, move the head of the pilot with a mouse, use the buttons of the mouse for rudders, and my chair is a guitar amplifier that I barely use anymore. Immersion level: PRO Erich Hartmann

[-TBC-AeroAce]

I have been holding my tounge on this for a couple of days. 

 

If zoomed in is cheating then zoomed out is also cheating. So lets have the view locked at half way!!!!! 

 

Who wants to vote for this???

 

AND the word ZOOM is annoying me because it should be called peripheral compensation balance percent or something lol

Edited August 28, 2018 by AeroAce

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, itsthatguy said:

THIS IS WHY ZOOM IS NECESSARY.

 

Nah.

 

Not a cheat - but not necessarily either.

[CSW_Hot_Dog]

5 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Nah.

 

Not a cheat - but not necessarily either.

Aaah, Gambit, I do not agree, if you want to be as close to reality as possible, i say it is necessary. You are open to discussion, so i will try to convince you?

 

First, I will ask you two simple questions:

• Do you want to see ingame same level of detail on objects from certain distance as IRL? (just so important for identification objects, its direction, spoting, etc, etc)
• Do you want to see ingame same field of view of around world as IRL? (important to review the situation around you, ... )

If your answer to at least one question is NO, than ok, but in this case you dont want to be as close to IRL as possible in my opinion.

 

If your answer is YES to both question, and i believe it is, than ok, i want a dam same think, but it is not possible with current monitors. It would be great, if it was possible, I want it too, but it is not, not at a same time as IRL. So you have at least option, to choose betwen FoV as IRL with poor level of detail vs. level of detail (ZOOM) as IRL but poor FoV at a time. And even with maximal ZOOM on 27'' 1440p monitor ingame, you have still worse level of detail than IRL in my opinion...

 

This matter will be one day solved with VR set with around 200 degree FoV (current top VR sets +-130 degree FoV, not bad, enough for most situation most of the time ) and resolution, where you cant see individual pixels, so called retina display. But it will not be 8K VR, not even 16K VR, maybe even in 32K VR you will be still able to see individual pixels, so this technology is still far away.

5 hours ago, AeroAce said:

If zoomed in is cheating then zoomed out is also cheating.

 

Exactly!

 

You can replace word cheating by ''unreal", "not as in reality" or "unnecessary" or somethink else and still, this sentence will be true...

Edited August 28, 2018 by Hot_Dog

[Trooper117]

Nothing changes... years and years ago we had the same moaning on the forums about you were a cheat if you used any kind of zoom feature.

And does anyone remember when TrackIR first came out years ago, and we had the same objections and moaning that you were a cheat if you used it... 

It's sad, it's getting really old, it's groundhog day  

[Diggun]

I play il2 with TM joystick, throttle & rudder and TIR5...... on a 15.6' laptop screen. If it weren't for the zoom function it would be essentially unplayable for me. Even as it is I have to accept that my spotting and SA is compromised by my tiny tiny screen. I firmly believe that this is the only reason I go down in flames as often as I do....

 

I just roleplay as someone similar to Mick Mannock, who faked their way through the eye test during their medical.... 

[Blackhawk_FR]

To me the zoom is not unrealistic (and not a cheat) as IRL you have a better and more precise view. 

 

Something that is unrealistic is how we are able to turn our head to 180° rear. Even by twisting the torso, it's hard to see precisely your six. 

And I'm not talking about moving your head, looking up or especially behind, under high Gs... 

Edited August 28, 2018 by F/JG300_Faucon

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

The equivalent of zoom in reality is focus combined with high image resolution and wide field of view (peripheral vision).

 

But yea, it has been too long since we had that discussion, almost thought it would never come up again. 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by 6./ZG26_5tuka

[SharpeXB]

 “Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake”

- Napoleon

 

I figure this is my attitude now that I give up trying to explain this concept. If players want to handicap themselves in the game why argue with them. 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

I don't have enemies in this game; Just fellow players with differing ideas of immersion and fun.

 

Except the clickpit people.  Screw that.

[Gambit21]

That's two days in a row.

[InProgress]

I did not make this topic to argue if it's cheating or not, to ban this from multiplayer or force people not to use it... Simply i like to play without it now, i like the fact that you don't shoot like sniper anymore and it looks and feels really nice when you strafe something and lots of hits are all over the ground instead of 2 hits at truck, boom, sniper elite. That's all

Edited August 29, 2018 by InProgress