BF109-G14 DB605 AS

[Portme]

Hi guys, 
in IL2 some airplanes have alternative engine variants available, like the La5 or the Spitfire Mk V. On the german side, there were versions of the Bf 109-G14 and G6 equipped with the DB605 AS engine. Only 325 Bf109 G6 AS were built, but the Bf109 G14 AS was produced in much bigger numbers. 1306 G14 Planes were equipped with the modified AS engine. (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109#Motorvarianten under the topic "Produktion" )
The DB605AS gave the 109 a better performance at high altitudes.
Is it possible to get the DB605 as an extra feature for the G14?

[=X51=VC_]

I think this is unlikely, because unlike the other examples you mention the G-14/AS has a completely different engine cowling to the standard G-14. I don't think they will make a new 3D model, and have to update the drag in the flight model, just for an engine mod. The K-4 is there for flying with better high alt performance than the G-14. If they do spend time making another 109 version, maybe as a collector plane, an Erla G-10 would be more interesting in my opinion.

Edited August 21, 2018 by =X51=VC_

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

3 minutes ago, =X51=VC_ said:

I think this is unlikely, because unlike the other examples you mention the G-14/AS has a completely different engine cowling to the standard G-14. I don't think they will make a new 3D model and, have to update the drag in the flight model, just for an engine mod. The K-4 is there for flying with better high alt performance than the G-14.

 

Yes, that would almost be just as much work as implementing a totally different cooling system for the A8 and the A5, even though there are basically no differences. Absolutley too much to ask for

Edited August 21, 2018 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[Talon_]

The game currently has 34 flyable aircraft, of which 6 are already 109s. When Bodenplatte releases, there will be 44 flyable aircraft of which 8 are 109s. 20% of the aircraft we have are 109s, let's have something different.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Talon_

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The G-14 AS has an identical Cowling to the K-4.

[=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand]

39 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

The game currently has 34 flyable aircraft, of which 6 are already 109s. When Bodenplatte releases, there will be 44 flyable aircraft of which 8 are 109s. 20% of the aircraft we have are 109s, let's have something different.

 

So your argument is that because they make up 20% of the game they should be left aside? Strange thought process...

Edited August 21, 2018 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

[MiloMorai]

There was only 1 Bf109G-6/AS built. All the rest were modified.

[E69_geramos109]

You know... the answer was given to us was that there was no need for a hight alt performer because on the game everthing happens on low alts.... meanwhile we have spits with Merlin 70

 

here you can check the discussion answered by BlackSix member of the team. 

G14ASM was a very important verssion and on my opinion we need this plane on the midle between G14 and K4 to fight with mustangs, P47s etc on the timeframe G10 would work as well. This middel verssions would be still slower than P51s but more capable to stay on hight alt with them istead of the G14. If we go directly with the K4 to fight P47s the superiority for the german plane is going to be too much. 

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by E69_geramos109

[Talon_]

12 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

So your argument is that because they make up 20% of the game they should be left aside? Strange thought process...

 

Making up 20% of the game already shows just how not "left aside" they are.

 

We have 8 versions of Bf109s and 4 versions of Fw190s, contrast this will the Allies and you have 2 versions of a plane maximum (Yak 1s, Peshkas, La-5s and Spitfires are each two). Let's go for variety instead of more of the same please.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

There are actually three Yaks and Il-2s.

 

Luftwaffe only happened to have 2 main fighters. Some variants of them were built in larger numbers than many Allied fighters as types... Like, I believe there were more Bf 109 G-6 than all P-38s combined. Same thing with P-39. It makes sense to introduce many variants of such widespread and diverse aircraft, especially if new variants provide something new. Which DB605AS 109s certainly would. I think they're probably cheaper to make too, as devs dont need say entirely new cockpits, exterior models, engine sounds etc.

[E69_geramos109]

11 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

Making up 20% of the game already shows just how not "left aside" they are.

 

We have 8 versions of Bf109s and 4 versions of Fw190s, contrast this will the Allies and you have 2 versions of a plane maximum (Yak 1s, Peshkas, La-5s and Spitfires are each two). Let's go for variety instead of more of the same please.

Germans had just two main fighters while allays have way more varians so nothing wrong to have a lot of 109s and 190s. 

[Talon_]

There are definitely only two Yak-1s. Yak-7 has about as much in common with a Yak-1 as the Lagg-3 does.

 

I did forget about the IL-2 but it's still pretty crazy to ask for more variations of a plane that we have 8 of. There's twice as many Bf109s as any other type.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Talon_

[Aap]

Yak-7 is quite related to Yak-1 as it was developed from the same program as trainer originally. Also, if you say we will have four Fw190's (including inline-engine Dora) and consider Bf109-G14/AS as a separate model, you could as well say that we have four Lavochkins (LaGG-3, La-5, La-5F and La-5FN) and Spitfires (Vb, LF IX, HF IX, clipped wings).

That being said, I would also prefer to see more completely different planes, but the reality is that Luftwaffe did not have 10 totally different fighter types in service.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Yaks regardless of number are more or less as related to each other as the 109s. Its not crazy. I also want(we need) more major variants of other aircraft, included but not limited to Yak-9, 9D, LaGG-3 s.66 and some early series and so forth.

[=X51=VC_]

1 hour ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

The G-14 AS has an identical Cowling to the K-4.

 

The overall shape is probably close enough for most people but I don't think they're identical. And that's not even getting into variations between individual factories. In a game like this that prides itself on accuracy, it would probably trigger some rivet counters if they just blindly re-used the K-4 nose for e.g. G-14/AS or G-10.

 

@Talon despite being a huge 109 fan I do see your point about having many. But then what else would you have? If we were to get another pair of collector fighter planes the allies have plenty to choose from but what would the LW "pair" be? If you don't want another version of an existing plane you're left with prototypes, half of which are arguably versions of the "main two" anyway.

[Talon_]

Later 87, 88, Do17/217, 410, late Heinkel, Salamander all spring to mind.

[E69_geramos109]

55 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

Later 87, 88, Do17/217, 410, late Heinkel, Salamander all spring to mind.

And on fighters? What do you want to use? there are just 109s and 190 versions. And there is a big gap between G14AM, G14ASM, and K4 way more than between G2, G4 and G6.

 

We have now 2 spitsV and 4 spits IX if you consider the combinations between cliped wings and engines that are changes quite important on fm to model so.... 

Edited August 21, 2018 by E69_geramos109

[Talon_]

Salamander is a fighter, late 110s and 410s are heavy fighters. Germans could use a P-47 equivalent (1250kg of bombs + rockets) which the F-8 cannot match. P-38 isn't far behind with 1000lbs.

[E69_geramos109]

1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

Salamander is a fighter, late 110s and 410s are heavy fighters. Germans could use a P-47 equivalent (1250kg of bombs + rockets) which the F-8 cannot match. P-38 isn't far behind with 1000lbs.

110s and 410 were planes for ground attack and also used as nightfighers. If the IL2 BOS is going to model such a special planes with radar guided and radar ground control fine but for the momment we have no that rol on the game. 

 

For the salamander you are asking for a plane that just few were build and that first combat action was on april 1945. G14ASM or G10 are far far more important, numerous and are filling a big gap on the 109 tree between G14AM and K4. Also there is not too much work to do for the devs comparing with a completelly new plane so I cant see the problem releasing this plane as collector one as soon as possible as they made with Kuban and the G6. Good money for them with not to much work.

Edited August 21, 2018 by E69_geramos109

[unreasonable]

3 hours ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Germans had just two main fighters while allays have way more varians so nothing wrong to have a lot of 109s and 190s. 

 

I agree in principle that there is nothing wrong with it but there is always the question of resources and priorities.  How many people would shell out for another 109 variant?  I know the 109 enthusiasts would - even I might, but I would so much prefer a Typhoon, or a Hurricane, just to name two of the massive gaps in the plane set. Then there are the various recce aircraft that were common - and common fighter targets, artillery co-operation crates like the Storch or Lysander, various medium bombers and so on, all of which would be much more attractive to me and I bet many other people than yet another almost indistinguishable 109.

 

There is no need for every Allied plane to be matched by a German plane for western front scenarios: there were three air-forces involved, not two, so the ratio should be one UK, one US, one German. 

 

edit - if it was possible as a mod like the Spitfire engine versions then that is fine.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by unreasonable

[E69_geramos109]

42 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

 

I agree in principle that there is nothing wrong with it but there is always the question of resources and priorities.  How many people would shell out for another 109 variant?  I know the 109 enthusiasts would - even I might, but I would so much prefer a Typhoon, or a Hurricane, just to name two of the massive gaps in the plane set. Then there are the various recce aircraft that were common - and common fighter targets, artillery co-operation crates like the Storch or Lysander, various medium bombers and so on, all of which would be much more attractive to me and I bet many other people than yet another almost indistinguishable 109.

 

There is no need for every Allied plane to be matched by a German plane for western front scenarios: there were three air-forces involved, not two, so the ratio should be one UK, one US, one German. 

 

edit - if it was possible as a mod like the Spitfire engine versions then that is fine.

 

 

Would be fine to be an engine mod on the same plane. As with the M70, M46 or La5F. It changes the 3d model? Yes, as other mods do and nothing happens. G10 for example is more than a mod and should be other plane. If we have a G14ASM is not going to be a problem not to have the G10. And yes, there are a lot of planes that were important as early yaks and laggs, yak9, hurry, typhoon etc. 

[MiloMorai]

Bf109G-14 - 2035

Bf109G-14/U4 - 654

Bf109G-14/AS - 1377

 

Bf109G-10 - 721

Bf109G-10/R6 - 971

Bf109G-10/U4 - 366

 

My preference would be G-14 and G-10/R6 due to numbers produced and G-10 is not that physically different than K-4 (less work for developers).

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

I think the G-14/AS as a mod would be a good addition for BoBP, after all it was the second most numerous variant that attacked the airfields. Performance wise it's also a trade off for better high alt performance, it was a bit slower at low altitudes, and I think it also climbed a bit worse down low.

Another plane which could use a mod update is the Fw 190 A-8, which the F-8 modification should have the blown type canopy present in the Dora.

About the G-10, I wouldn't want to have it as a collector, I would prefer to have it available for another expansion (I know after this we are supposed to get the Pacific but maybe later on, or made by one of the 3rd party teams). I feel a collector in it's place could be a more interesting or unique plane.

[JtD]

Personally I'd prefer the G-14ASM over the G-14AM as we have it now. While I don't really care about Bf109's and rather have a Fw190A-9, I still think the AS engine would be a valuable addition to the game.

 

As for fighters, variants and numbers - as far as I can see we have 12 distinctly different Axis fighters (if you consider the difference between a 109G-2 and G-4 large enough to make them distinctly different), whereas we have 18 Allied fighters (if you consider the difference between a Merlin 45 and a Merlin 46 large enough to make the Spitfire V count as two distinctly different models). From that point of view there's absolutely nothing speaking against the addition of some more Bf109 variants, in particular models that fill historical and performance gaps like the DB605AS and ASM equipped models.

 

I'd also take a Ki-61.

[Talon_]

13 minutes ago, JtD said:

(if you consider the difference between a Merlin 45 and a Merlin 46 large enough to make the Spitfire V count as two distinctly different models

 

This is a hard argument to make. Much like the Merlin 70, the high altitude engines in both aircraft are basically pointless in a low altitude tactical air war. In fact there's no point taking either high altitude engine unless you plan to do battle above 27,000 feet.

[sevenless]

 

[Kurfurst]

Having a G-14/AS would be nice, especially as many units that might be concerned in single campaign had them, and they look distinctly different from the normal altitude G-14. So its a bit of an immersion killer. I can get though that they have to draw the line somewhere. The K-4 is very close to the G-14/AS and G-10 anyway. Performance is practically the same, the K is a little faster but not much else, apart from it is 'MK 108 only'.

 

I can get the Devs idea on it though, its just difficult to find good enough references on the G-14/AS, hence why most Sim Devs go with the K-4, which, being a new model, has full, available very detailed manuals, parts manuals, operating manuals for them. No need to guess how this or that switch may have looked like in the cocpit and so on. 

 

So from purely the historical perspective we would need G-14/AS to have Axis units represented correctly, but for practical purposes, not really. 

 

[I./ZG1_Radick]

I would like the Bf 110 F4 

[Asgar]

22 hours ago, unreasonable said:

There is no need for every Allied plane to be matched by a German plane for western front scenarios: there were three air-forces involved, not two, so the ratio should be one UK, one US, one German. 

there were two factions the Axis and the Allies, so the ratio should be one Axis plane one Allied plane  

Edited August 22, 2018 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[JtD]

21 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

This is a hard argument to make. Much like the Merlin 70, the high altitude engines in both aircraft are basically pointless in a low altitude tactical air war. In fact there's no point taking either high altitude engine unless you plan to do battle above 27,000 feet.

 

I've made the point elsewhere already - the Merlin 70 gives superior performance between 3000 and 5000m and above 7000m. It is, on average, superior to the Merlin 66 variant if you exclude altitudes below 2000m. So basically the question is do you spend more than 50% your time below 2000m, if not, you're better off with a Merlin 70. I know I am.

[Talon_]

4 minutes ago, JtD said:

 

I've made the point elsewhere already - the Merlin 70 gives superior performance between 3000 and 5000m and above 7000m. It is, on average, superior to the Merlin 66 variant if you exclude altitudes below 2000m. So basically the question is do you spend more than 50% your time below 2000m, if not, you're better off with a Merlin 70. I know I am.

 

Sorry but this is not correct 

[unreasonable]

8 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Asgar said:

there were two factions the Axis and the Allies, so the ratio should be one Axis plane one Allied plane  

 

I would be perfectly happy with that if we also had a Med map, some more Italian jobs and the allied planes they flew against, but in terms of representing the main air forces in the maps that we have, 1 axis : 1 allied is highly unsatisfactory, at least to anyone not obsessed with German aircraft.   

[JtD]

3 hours ago, Talon_ said:

Sorry but this is not correct

 

No need to be sorry to have your own opinion. Imho speed is only one aspect of performance, to each his own.

[Talon_]

2 hours ago, JtD said:

 

No need to be sorry to have your own opinion. Imho speed is only one aspect of performance, to each his own.

 

It's faster because it makes more power. In an engine, making more power = better performance.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

For a collector's plane in BoBP, I'd rather have one Flying Fortress, than several similar LW fighter variants. Make it 30 bucks, and people will still buy it. From what I've heard, read and viewed the thing is so iconic to many people. 

 

They'd open up a lot of new game scenarios, and immersive missions, for both SP and MP. 

 

 

[Asgar]

which airfield in the lowlands did the B-17s fly from again?

Edited August 23, 2018 by 6./ZG26_Asgar

[MiloMorai]

They did land in the area tho. Three B-17s and 1 B-24 were destroyed Jan 1 1945 at Ursel, St. Trond and St. Denis Westrem.

[PainGod85]

On 8/21/2018 at 9:52 AM, =X51=VC_ said:

I think this is unlikely, because unlike the other examples you mention the G-14/AS has a completely different engine cowling to the standard G-14. I don't think they will make a new 3D model, and have to update the drag in the flight model, just for an engine mod. The K-4 is there for flying with better high alt performance than the G-14. If they do spend time making another 109 version, maybe as a collector plane, an Erla G-10 would be more interesting in my opinion.

 

You mean like they also didn't make a massively different physical model for the clipped wing Spit IX?

Oh wait. They actually did.

[=GW=seaflanker819]

On 8/22/2018 at 10:42 PM, Talon_ said:

 

Sorry but this is not correct 

how do you get the flight envelope？I am searching tools to draw curves for BOS planes.

[LColony_Kong]

On 8/21/2018 at 3:55 AM, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

Yes, that would almost be just as much work as implementing a totally different cooling system for the A8 and the A5, even though there are basically no differences. Absolutley too much to ask for

Personally I dont want it because they made up 1/5th of the g-14 production and came out of month later than the normal G-14. I realize mission designers can compensate to a degree, but the problem with adding the rarer versions of planes that are clearly superior to the common types is that in a video game no one will fly the default plane. I already suspect that multiplayer is going to be nothing but K-4s and D-9s. 

 

Again, I get that mission designers might be able to make this a non issue but:

 

I dont trust them.  And even if you limit AS G-14s to 1/5th of the sides allotment, for the first part of the game thats all anyone will take. Or after the K4s die thats all they will take.

 

A good solution to this (perhaps already possible?) would be to have server limits where planes are limited in number based on the number of people currently in them. So if two guys jump in AS models (wingmen allowance) it wont allow two more until 10 people have jumped in plane jane G-14s. Same logic applied to aircraft of all sides. I dont want to see the sky full of P-38s either. 

 

Obviously, this is less of a problem on say TAW vs WoL

Edited March 13, 2019 by Fumes