Russian stealth fighters

[MiloMorai]

India not happy with them.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/01/25/russian-rubbish-india-reportedly-disappointed-with-stealth-fighters-from-moscow/?intcmp=latestnews

 

 

Is the Russian arms industry getting soft?

 

Despite initial high expectations, the Indian Air Force appears to be souring on a joint development deal with Russia for a new fifth-generation fighter jet, according to the Business Standard, a major Indian business publication. The Russian prototype is "unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered,” said Indian Air Force Deputy Air Marshall S Sukumar at a Jan. 15 meeting, according to minutes obtained by the Business Standard.

 

That contrasts sharply with high hopes voiced by the Indian government when the joint project, to which the Indian government has contributed $6 billion, began.

[Emgy]

Fox news is not an accurate source for news outside the US. Washington Post are not accurate when reporting on aviation either.

 

I remember WaPo claiming UK & French planes couldn't use US-made bombs (over Libya 2011), and they would run out of bombs after one month. Nevermind that you could find 10+ year old pictures of Tornado and Mirage with GBUs, and of course the campaign lasted 7 months.

 

Better to use specialist sites like Aviationweek.

For Indian air force news specifically, http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/

[Rama]

Actually the French airforce did run out of french GPS-guided ordnance after one month during the Lybia campaign, and had to rely on allies to renew their stock... so the information wasn't totally false.

[Emgy]

Their claim was, very explicitly, that UK & French planes couldn't carry US made bombs from US stocks. And that RAF & AdlA would likely have to cease operations after one month.

 

Running out of AASM doesn't make much difference to the campaign, considering Mirage 2k and Rafale dropped GBU-12&49 over Afghanistan years before.

 

But yes I understand what your post meant. I just didn't expect that kind of tabloidism from the Washington Post in 2011.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Calvamos

[taleks]

Stealth is just a fairy tale. Really.

 

In my opinion, there is no need in LO technology and fighters anymore.

It is just toys for local conflicts with some countries and - of course - for military parades.

 

Issues with radar - may be. There are a lot of radars out of Russia, why not to use them if they are better?

Many export variants of arms from Russia have foreign equipment. it is "joint" project, nobody prevents from introducing the superior Indian radar technology.

IMHO, the real reason is more political and economical, than issues with quality.

 

I hope, this joint project will be aborted and India will not get/steal/share any technology.

Let them solve theirs affairs with Pakistan and China without us. Russia must focus on our own problems.

[Jaws2002]

India not happy with them.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/01/25/russian-rubbish-india-reportedly-disappointed-with-stealth-fighters-from-moscow/?intcmp=latestnews

 

 

Is the Russian arms industry getting soft?

 

Despite initial high expectations, the Indian Air Force appears to be souring on a joint development deal with Russia for a new fifth-generation fighter jet, according to the Business Standard, a major Indian business publication. The Russian prototype is "unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered,” said Indian Air Force Deputy Air Marshall S Sukumar at a Jan. 15 meeting, according to minutes obtained by the Business Standard.

 

That contrasts sharply with high hopes voiced by the Indian government when the joint project, to which the Indian government has contributed $6 billion, began.

 

 

Indians are funny when it comes to foreign weapons. They want to build them locally, Make spare parts locally, get milked by local contractors, and then blame the original foreign company for it.

 

I've seen the same crap coming from India about about Rafale, mig 21, mig 29, T72, t90 and pretty much everything they get. When Indian contractors who make spare parts, deliver crap quality, they quicly jump and blame the original foreign company.

 

I'd take it with a grain of salt.

[LLv44_Mprhead]

Quite a lot I could say about the subject (of products manufactured in India and working with people from India). But I guess some things are better left unsaid, at least in here.

[Mastermariner]

Anyone who failed to see the “advertisement” or hear the “and now a word from our sponsor” at the beginning of the article (add!) needs to get his head examined and/or to change his mayor news supplier.

 

Master

[kestrel79]

Anyone have a photo what these planes look like?

[Emgy]

http://russianplanes.net/images/to129000/128566.jpg

[DD_bongodriver]

Anyone have a photo what these planes look like?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pak+fa&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ca3uUr6yFMOQhQeLn4HwAg&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=944

[siipperi]

Stealth is just a fairy tale. Really.

 

In my opinion, there is no need in LO technology and fighters anymore.

It is just toys for local conflicts with some countries and - of course - for military parades.

 

Issues with radar - may be. There are a lot of radars out of Russia, why not to use them if they are better?

Many export variants of arms from Russia have foreign equipment. it is "joint" project, nobody prevents from introducing the superior Indian radar technology.

IMHO, the real reason is more political and economical, than issues with quality.

 

I hope, this joint project will be aborted and India will not get/steal/share any technology.

Let them solve theirs affairs with Pakistan and China without us. Russia must focus on our own problems.

Problem is that they can't just stick "some" radar to that plane and hope it would work. Normal radar would be just useless in such a plane. Once you turn it on you expose yourself to everyone. They need something similar what usa have with theyr stealth jets. Not sure what radar technology india have but surely nothing close to russians.

 

I have always had my doubts with that jet design. It just doens't look too stealthy with those big bare afterburner engines with nothing to cover them. They should buy yank stuff. Might be ready with same time with sukoi. lol....

[taleks]

> Problem is that they can't just stick "some" radar to that plane and hope it would work.

 

Yes, they can't. Thus there is no point in that soap opera India gives every time they want technology for cheap price or better for free.

 

AFAIK, Russia has some problems with radar for T-50 and for export variant FGFA as well. But they will be solved, as government surely is ready to sacrifice economics to satisfy military as in good old, but somehow cold times. Anyway, India just wants better bargain.

 

> They need something similar what usa have with theyr stealth jets.

The problem with stealth, that LO technology can work in a lot of frequency bands, but that vehicle can't fly at all.

Other than this, there is a heat trace, optical recognition, etc.

 

Google Maps have coverage with 0.5m per point precision for a lot of places on the Earth.

There are many satellites for military purposes, that provide real-time telemetry with at least the same precision.

It is not so hard problem to identify a plane and type of plane in automated mode even at big speeds. Especially if it is expected to participate in another conflict.

 

My point is that stealth bombers, can be used only to bomb weak enemy in local conflict. And even in this case they need to be very cautious (e.g. remember crash during Serbian war several years ago). The real stealth fighters don't exist in real world, as they cannot participate in dogfight maneuvers without revealing theirs position (their's form and profile less observable in certain flight modes). If anti-air forces are not neutralized that's simply suicidal behavior.

 

One flight of packed with stealth bomber costs more than several tactical missiles, which can be delivered with help of other carrier, more heavily loaded and out of area of conflict. One stealth aircraft costs more than several outdated fighters/bombers we see everyday.

In brief, they are money sucking monsters, that in fact provide less for their's price than older vehicles/arms. Even USA - major and most advanced apologist for stealth - prefers other ways to perform war.

Stealth is good idea, really cool, but decades or even hundreds of years far from appropriate implementation. IMHO.

 

> I have always had my doubts with that jet design.

Well, nobody knows for sure.

[siipperi]

 

 

Yeah, stealth fighters/bombers are much more political thing than actual total war weaponry because we can expect famous quote by Einstein to happen if there will be 3rd world war. I think atleast for Yanks it's that their pilots can safely perform combat task (against poor third world countries) and return to afternoon tea. There isn't price for human lives especially if it's your own country and that's pretty much what they are doing. But there are actually pretty "funny" things reported what stealth fighters have done. http://theaviationist.com/2013/09/19/f-22-f-4-intercept/

Funny thing is that raptor and most likely  pak fa aren't suited for actual dogfight because they are huge planes. and there are multiple records that show older/previous gen jets beat raptors in dogfighting, but as said part of being stealth is not going to dogfight.

And I love those planes! Now someone should make sim out of those. 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 F-22 uses a normal radar thus a more advanced version, propably the AESA. Electronially scanning radar, not one with a disk moving. And even the F-22 is a good plane it is far from being invisible to radars, it just requires something a bit different and you see it as any other plane. Remember it is made for certain wave lengths and you can figure the rest. EF Typhoon already managed to "shoot down" F-22 in mock up combat which must have been a shock to the F-22 pilots It is all about sensor technology.

 

Russians have a different approach on things than US. Their stuff is usually built to handle quite harsh conditions and while not being high tech in that sense, the technology used can be kept operational easily enough in lower maintenance situations better than stuff requiring a lot of support equipment. And the first and most fatal error you make is underestimating the capabilities of your adversary  

 

Add to the soup China. I wonder what they are cooking up there?

[Emgy]

About China, no need to wonder because PLAAF are happily "leaking" videos/pics and letting Chinese planespotters camp next to their testing air fields.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVUX_hfEouQ&feature=youtu.be

There's also J-31 but it's a very boring, conservative design. And armed UAVs of course, but everyone is doing that.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Calvamos

[DD_bongodriver]

Funny seeing the Chinese stealth, because they couldn't steal someone elses to copy the best they could do was watch the movie Firefox and build a copy of that.

 

But the J-31 is an F-22 copy

Edited February 4, 2014 by DD_bongodriver

[unreasonable]

Manned aircraft of any kind, stealth or not, seem to me to be close to being equivalent to dreadnaught battleships in WW2. Sure you can still use them for various things, but they no longer justify their enormous R&D, building and maintenance costs compared to alternative platforms.

 

But the pilot lobby is just as powerful and reactionary as the battleship lobby used to be, and politicians and businessmen still rake off enormous amounts of wealth through these projects, so it will still be a couple of decades before manned planes are used only for recreation.

[Emgy]

But the J-31 is an F-22 copy

 

It is, quite strikingly, an exceedingly boring mix of F-22&35.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Calvamos

[Jaws2002]

 

Funny thing is that raptor and most likely  pak fa aren't suited for actual dogfight because they are huge planes. and there are multiple records that show older/previous gen jets beat raptors in dogfighting, but as said part of being stealth is not going to dogfight.

 

 

You couldn't be further from the truth. Both F22 and Pakfa can probably eat most "dogfighters " for lunch.  It's known fact that f22 beats all US non stealth fighters in close in fighting:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-CRINeb9_A

 

Huge engines, decent wing area and thrust vectoring. T-50 has just as powerful engines, even more wing area, those huge movable LERX in front of the wing, 3d thrust vectoring.

 

Another thing T-50 has is the, L band radar and IRST. An optical search and track unit that can detect aircraft and guide missiles, without the radar. Shorter range than it's radar,  but still very helpful. While stealth is not exactly invisible to radars, it helps the plane reduce the detection range enough that he can get closer to the enemy plane before it's detected. Far from worthless. in my opinion.

 

But there's more really cool stuff on the way in this respect:

 

http://www.hyperstealth.com/Quantum-Stealth/

 

 

And of course. the cool T50 pics.

 

how to print screen on pc

 

jpg images

 

snagit

 

Edited February 5, 2014 by Jaws2002

[Krupi]

Hmm.....

 

I don't think so Jaws 

 

 

Thrust vectoring is certainly the future of fighter aircraft, but as with all new technology they need time to mature before the best can be made of them...

Edited February 6, 2014 by Krupi

[Emgy]

It's known fact that f22 beats all US non stealth fighters in close in fighting:

Don't say that to a USN pilot ;-) (the USAF-USN rivalry is pretty well known.)

Super Hornet gun cam. Edit: Not presenting as proof for an argument (F-22 vs F-18 dogfight argument is 10 years old and tired), just an interesting picture, maybe, for this thread.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Calvamos

[BraveSirRobin]

A HUD camera still doesn't prove that the Rhino is superior to the F-22 in a close-in fight.  

[Emgy]

I know I edited my post while you were typing.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Calvamos

[siipperi]

You couldn't be further from the truth. Both F22 and Pakfa can probably eat most "dogfighters " for lunch.  It's known fact that f22 beats all US non stealth fighters in close in fighting:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-CRINeb9_A

 

Huge engines, decent wing area and thrust vectoring. T-50 has just as powerful engines, even more wing area, those huge movable LERX in front of the wing, 3d thrust vectoring.

 

Another thing T-50 has is the, L band radar and IRST. An optical search and track unit that can detect aircraft and guide missiles, without the radar. Shorter range than it's radar,  but still very helpful. While stealth is not exactly invisible to radars, it helps the plane reduce the detection range enough that he can get closer to the enemy plane before it's detected. Far from worthless. in my opinion.

 

But there's more really cool stuff on the way in this respect:

 

 

Thrust vectoring and lowest turning radius isn't all when it comes to modern dogfighting, energy fighting is the key and keeping your speed. Large wings and thrust vectoring is known to bleed your speed rapidly because those allow you to turn more. When you are in "dogfight mode" it doesn't really matter if person you are fighting against know you are using radar because he most likely know you are chasing him. There is no doubt that stealth fighters should win in head to head situations when coming from far apart but for close combat I wouldn't trust those as much. Raptor and su pak fa are huge planes and no surprise that light eurofighter have beaten raptor in those situations.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eWoYZi3jfY

beautiful plane

Edited February 7, 2014 by siipperi

[Jaws2002]

I read about that f-18 gun camera from a pilot that was in the air at the time. The guy broke a bunch of safety rules for that cool image. That clip was taken after they were told to knock it off.

The problem wit this mock combat training is that f22 has all kind of restrictions on what it can do. As one pilot in an article put it "we realized early on that letting f22 fly in this exercises unrestricted, we were just burning fuel and nobody had a chance to learn anything. They would just sneak in, kill everybody and disappear. "

No doubt euro fighter is a damn good plane, but if you would be forced to take one, against the other, in a real scrap, 99% of pilots would chose the f22.

Most likely the first thing on euro fighter to see the f22 is the irst. That's 50 km max. What good is the extra range of the meteor missile, if you can see the f22 to lock on it until he is at a quarter of the missile's range.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Jaws2002