Soviet fighter tactics?

[Thad]

No beer or vodka in the cockpit. ?

[busdriver]

3 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Not really -  the video is illustrative of avoiding the temptation to climb up to a bandit but instead gain horizontal separation in order to deny his game and open yours. Whether or not that video was the best example or not is another matter, but staying under someone with height advantage and trying to climb each time you are out of their WEZ is very tempting, but ultimately a dangerous way to operate.

 

We (RL fighter pilots) sometimes used the terms "pushing" or "pulling" during ACM and ACT to paint a picture for your wingman. Imagine you see two F-16s, one chasing the other, but you don't know which one is your wingman. You might ask your wingman if she's "pushing" or "pulling." Formal texts (training and tactical manuals) use the terms "offensive" "defensive" and "neutral." If you are out in front of a bandit (or if you choose, you trapped the bandit behind your 3-9 line) you are "pulling."

 

Respectfully Talon used very specific terms, descending pressure and climbing pressure. What exactly was the pressure? "Descending pressure" was a lure to drag the bandit lower. In the vernacular of Monty Python's Holy Grail, Talon employed "run away...run away." If I elect to chase Talon downhill, then I voluntarily trade away my altitude advantage. Talon certainly can't pressure me into coming after him. As it was, Talon was merely "pulling." This 109 should/could have applied the pressure on Talon to make him run away all the way down to the deck...that would have been descending pressure (by the bandit).  The bandit missed a couple of chances to make Talon pay.

 

I say again, Talon fought successfully against a terribly benign opponent. Disarray said, The tactics employed in Talon's video are very useful; very well explained as well. I'm here to say it is totally incorrect to describe trying to drag a bandit lower as applying pressure. Likewise regaining altitude lost is not applying pressure. Talon coined a phrase "energy trap" to describe what most folks recognize as a hard turn with an overshoot. That was no trap, that was poor BFM by the 109 player.  Or as I say when I frequently do that...gross buffoonery.  A less charitable individual might say that Talon is making up terms and definitions.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2018 by busdriver

[=X51=VC_]

48 minutes ago, Disarray said:

Those fights happen low precisely because the Soviet fighters can compete there. There is no point taking a Yak up to 5 Km where you will just get your face smashed. But a 109 can still easily make use of its advantages. I was playing last night and I couldn't get 109's or 190's to fight for love nor money. They might swoop in to make an 'attack' every now and then, but actual combat? No, never. I don't know, it must be fun flying around in a combat sim not having any combat. I guess it is safe, at least.

 

So as I said, the advantage is "theoretical" in the sense that it's pretty useless, not to mention frustrating, being safe and all if you can't use the tools you have to secure kills.

 

26 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

Impatience is deadly - for both blues and reds

 

see - decide - attack - open a new beer

 

Impatience is far deadlier for blues. Fights have a natural tendancy to go lower and slower unless the guy who's higher and faster is really disciplined. So the guy who benefits from dragging the fight down has nothing really to lose from constantly pulling impatient stunts and hoping the enemy takes the bait.

Edited August 12, 2018 by =X51=VC_

[LeLv76_Erkki]

1 minute ago, =X51=VC_ said:

 

So as I said, the advantage is "theoretical" in the sense that it's pretty useless, not to mention frustrating, being safe and all if you can't use the tools you have to secure kills.

 

 

Impatience is far deadlier for blues. Fights have a natural tendancy to go lower and slower unless the guy who's higher and faster is really disciplined. So the guy who benefits from dragging the fight down has nothing really to lose from constantly pulling impatient stunts and hoping the enemy takes the bait.

 

Its not theoretical, you need to keep your situational awareness high, not overcommitt into prolonged fights(on wol more bad guys are never more than a minute away from spoiling your fun) and knowing what you fight: 109 and even 190 arent, at a given altitude including at the deck, always faster than red planes. On wol you probably often find yourself in 109 G against Lalas and P-39 that in fact have much higher top level speed than you and WILL catch you, especially if you misestimate their relative E and they're already closing in.

[EAF19_Marsh]

11 hours ago, busdriver said:

We (RL fighter pilots) sometimes used the terms "pushing" or "pulling" during ACM and ACT to paint a picture for your wingman. Imagine you see two F-16s, one chasing the other, but you don't know which one is your wingman. You might ask your wingman if she's "pushing" or "pulling." Formal texts (training and tactical manuals) use the terms "offensive" "defensive" and "neutral." If you are out in front of a bandit (or if you choose, you trapped the bandit behind your 3-9 line) you are "pulling."

 

Appreciate the clarification. None the less, my understanding both theoretical and from experience is that gaining (with appropriate care and timing) some horizontal separation from someone with an altitude advantage is generally a good idea as it gives you a little more time / room and slows the tempo of the classic BnZ. Trying to narrow the gap by climbing up to him / her is asking for the old rope trick.

 

But obvious this depends on a myriad of circumstances.

[ECV56_Necathor]

Hello RedRider.

As you may know 99.9% of the time a play as red. You are almost welcome to join us.

On this post you can see a good shoots and maneuvers, sorry is in Spanish.

 

[Mauf]

Maybe to add a little tidbit:

 

Many newcomers to the red side actually turn too much. This sounds counterintuitive at the beginning but there's a point to it. The newcomers, once they see a 109 diving at them from the high six immediately go into a hard turn to one side. This is bad because the German pilot worth his salt will simply cut your turn and go for a sharp deflection shot. Even if that shot doesn't connect, they avoid turning, pull up and you just lost a lot of energy compared to them which exacerbates your situation.

 

Do you know the tale of the frog in the boiling water? Put a frog into boiling water and he'll jump out. But put him in a pot of cold water and slowly rise the temperature until it boils and he'll die in it. Now replace frog with German pilot and water temperature with turn rate and you got the idea. What needs to happen is that you start with a slow turn (appropriate to the distance to your enemy). The more casual (aka not evasive) that turn looks, the better (throw in a few short stretches of level flight just to look like a lame duck ripe for the picking). Then as he comes closer, you gently increase the turn (always being sure that he doesn't have a firing solution, watch for air intake of the oil cooler under the 109s nose. You see that thing, you're in trouble or very close to it). If you're lucky (and the German pilot careless), he'll "bite". Imagine having him on the rope like a drag plane. Learn to play with them, keep your turn rate just high enough that he can't reach a shooting solution but make him believe that "just pulling a bit more" will get him there. If done right, they throw all care to the wind and end up stalling out which allows you to roll over and dive on their six.

 

Also, don't be egoistic. Sometimes, someone has to play fish bait for a team mate to pick them off. Killing 109s is more often than not a team effort. So if someone dragged a 109 low for you, throw a salute to the guy:)

 

Edit: Just saw that Talon's video shows some of this. What's called "Energy trap" there is what I mean though it's a pretty obvious one.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Mauf

[JaffaCake]

In my experience VVS aircraft weakness are either level speed or climb. Flying VVS you are super-efficient in turns, have the flaps to help you line up that critical shot, and can run circles around most of the waffle stuff they have in a turnfight. So from what I have observed majority of the voda vs waffle fights devolve to is 109 pouncing a yak, unable to get the shot, while yak tries to occasionally put a squirt towards a running 109 after his pass. In a 1 on 1 the fight keep dragging lower and lower until yak would run out of energy with 109 coming out victorious.

 

However in many MP situations you dont fight alone - get on teamspeak or just ask for help in chat. You can keep the fight going for good 10 minutes if you are careful, giving your buddies enough time to come in at higher energy at which point 109 is nothing but a toast - he can try to dive away but yak can easily follow in a shallower and more efficient dive

[EAF19_Marsh]

The flap stuff I find very odd - I cannot imagine that this ocurred in such a mechanistic fashion when actually flying the aircraft.

[=X51=VC_]

1 hour ago, Mauf said:

Many newcomers to the red side actually turn too much. This sounds counterintuitive at the beginning but there's a point to it. The newcomers, once they see a 109 diving at them from the high six immediately go into a hard turn to one side. This is bad because the German pilot worth his salt will simply cut your turn and go for a sharp deflection shot. Even if that shot doesn't connect, they avoid turning, pull up and you just lost a lot of energy compared to them which exacerbates your situation.

 

Do you know the tale of the frog in the boiling water? Put a frog into boiling water and he'll jump out. But put him in a pot of cold water and slowly rise the temperature until it boils and he'll die in it. Now replace frog with German pilot and water temperature with turn rate and you got the idea. What needs to happen is that you start with a slow turn (appropriate to the distance to your enemy). The more casual (aka not evasive) that turn looks, the better (throw in a few short stretches of level flight just to look like a lame duck ripe for the picking). Then as he comes closer, you gently increase the turn (always being sure that he doesn't have a firing solution, watch for air intake of the oil cooler under the 109s nose. You see that thing, you're in trouble or very close to it). If you're lucky (and the German pilot careless), he'll "bite". Imagine having him on the rope like a drag plane. Learn to play with them, keep your turn rate just high enough that he can't reach a shooting solution but make him believe that "just pulling a bit more" will get him there. If done right, they throw all care to the wind and end up stalling out which allows you to roll over and dive on their six.

 

This is generally excellent advice. I would add though that you can abuse the 109s control stiffening against him. If you break late and hard he has no hope of adjusting his aim in time. Also, make sure any turn, breaking or baiting, has a downward component. This keeps your speed up and forces your attacker to speed up more than he wants and dig even further into control stiffening territory. The faster he's going the harder it is for him to aim and the more energy he loses (proportionally) trying to follow you.

 

1 hour ago, JaffaCake said:

So from what I have observed majority of the voda vs waffle fights devolve to is 109 pouncing a yak, unable to get the shot, while yak tries to occasionally put a squirt towards a running 109 after his pass. In a 1 on 1 the fight keep dragging lower and lower until yak would run out of energy with 109 coming out victorious.

 

The lower and slower the fight gets the less likely the 109 is to come out on top. He can bounce all he likes but ultimately he's bleeding energy too following the Yak down. You can't bounce someone who's treetop turning, sooner or later you have to slow down to actually get a shot, then it's a sealed deal for the Yak. Even a LaGG or P-40 will spank a 109 in a treetop nose-to-tail merry-go-round.

 

1 hour ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

The flap stuff I find very odd - I cannot imagine that this ocurred in such a mechanistic fashion when actually flying the aircraft.

 

I find the way some VVS pilots pop flaps for a quick warp-like turn boost to be borderline exploit. I try not to do this because it just doesn't feel right or fair.

[CrazyDuck]

13 minutes ago, =X51=VC_ said:

I find the way some VVS pilots pop flaps for a quick warp-like turn boost to be borderline exploit. I try not to do this because it just doesn't feel right or fair.

 

Out of curiosity, why not?

[JaffaCake]

14 minutes ago, =X51=VC_ said:

The lower and slower the fight gets the less likely the 109 is to come out on top. He can bounce all he likes but ultimately he's bleeding energy too following the Yak down. You can't bounce someone who's treetop turning, sooner or later you have to slow down to actually get a shot, then it's a sealed deal for the Yak. Even a LaGG or P-40 will spank a 109 in a treetop nose-to-tail merry-go-round.

 

 

Not at all! 109 can keep its energy advantage in horizontal and climb away from yak for another pass. I had seen yaks perish low and slow, where the choice is either to stall into the ground, or level out and fly straight, taking the burst from the 109. Dive does not mean you are at a sharper angle to the target, you can dive earlier, reach same attitude as the target and simply zoom away when the target decides to spend energy for an evasive. 

 

Just now, CrazyDuck said:

 

Out of curiosity, why not?

 

What I find strange is not the ability to prop the nose up but the minimal energy impact they have for such an increase of AoA. Continuous deployment of flaps does now add more drag than they used to, but the "pull up and shoot" flaps don't seem to drain the KE as much still.

 

Edited August 16, 2018 by JaffaCake

[Ehret]

27 minutes ago, =X51=VC_ said:

The lower and slower the fight gets the less likely the 109 is to come out on top. He can bounce all he likes but ultimately he's bleeding energy too following the Yak down. You can't bounce someone who's treetop turning, sooner or later you have to slow down to actually get a shot, then it's a sealed deal for the Yak. Even a LaGG or P-40 will spank a 109 in a treetop nose-to-tail merry-go-round.

 

Once slow, the P-40 is a sitting duck at tree level, imho... For a continuous turning fight you need the acceleration; something the Kittyhawk has in short supply. It's possible to burn the engine trying to gain an angle but this is short and one time trick, only.

[=X51=VC_]

33 minutes ago, CrazyDuck said:

 

Out of curiosity, why not?

 

While I don't have numbers to hand, I am under the impression these flaps, especially on Yaks, were designed for landing speeds. In game you can pop them at basically any speed and shoot upwards (or sideways) like you have vectored thrust. Plus what JaffaCake said about drag impact. I'm happy to be corrected if you have historical accounts that flaps were used in this way and were that effective.

 

33 minutes ago, JaffaCake said:

 

 

Not at all! 109 can keep its energy advantage in horizontal and climb away from yak for another pass. I had seen yaks perish low and slow, where the choice is either to stall into the ground, or level out and fly straight, taking the burst from the 109. Dive does not mean you are at a sharper angle to the target, you can dive earlier, reach same attitude as the target and simply zoom away when the target decides to spend energy for an evasive. 

 

 

Yes, that definitely works but it's still a dangerous game. A Yak can usually recover enough speed between passes to make another successful dodge. The 109 has to choose between keeping the pressure on and regaining enough E for the next pass to be "safe". Usually after a few cycles you just end up doing endless head-to-head passes, or if the 109 is impatient the energy states equalize and the Yak wins.

 

18 minutes ago, Ehret said:

 

Once slow, the P-40 is a sitting duck at tree level, imho... For a continuous turning fight you need the acceleration; something the Kittyhawk has in short supply. It's possible to burn the engine trying to gain an angle but this is short and one time trick, only.

 

Did this the other day, bounced at 3k by a 109, descending turn all the way down (his mistake to follow me), 4 or 5 full circles on the deck and I was on his 6. Yes, I did run my engine a bit over the top, but mostly by accident as I couldn't afford to glance at the gauge on the way down.

Edited August 16, 2018 by =X51=VC_

[-SF-Disarray]

VC, you are in part correct. The high speed turning ability of the Yak makes it dangerous in a high speed turning fight. The same can be said for LaGG's and to some extent the P-40. But if you drop the speed sufficiently the 109 will take the edge in cornering. At that point it is all about the leading edge slats, which most Soviet planes lack. Those little guys extend the stall window on the 109 leaving them well in control at low speed. If a Soviet plane tries to follow them into these low speed maneuvers they will either fall out of the sky or over shoot. In both cases this is to the 109's advantage in single combat. If you add in other planes it can be a crap shoot. On the one hand the 109 is left in a somewhat vulnerable position, but on the other hand if the Soviet is trying to stick with him for the kill it is no great feat for a second German to swoop in for the kill. Add to this the generally excellent power to weight ratio of most 109 models and you can claw back the speed lost in short order. It is these kind of fights I like the best, where both planes are a threat to one another. It pits pilot against pilot, none of this relying purely on the mechanical superiority of the 109 to carry the day. 

[EAF19_Marsh]

1 hour ago, =X51=VC_ said:

 

This is generally excellent advice. I would add though that you can abuse the 109s control stiffening against him. If you break late and hard he has no hope of adjusting his aim in time. Also, make sure any turn, breaking or baiting, has a downward component. This keeps your speed up and forces your attacker to speed up more than he wants and dig even further into control stiffening territory. The faster he's going the harder it is for him to aim and the more energy he loses (proportionally) trying to follow you.

 

 

The lower and slower the fight gets the less likely the 109 is to come out on top. He can bounce all he likes but ultimately he's bleeding energy too following the Yak down. You can't bounce someone who's treetop turning, sooner or later you have to slow down to actually get a shot, then it's a sealed deal for the Yak. Even a LaGG or P-40 will spank a 109 in a treetop nose-to-tail merry-go-round.

 

 

I find the way some VVS pilots pop flaps for a quick warp-like turn boost to be borderline exploit. I try not to do this because it just doesn't feel right or fair.

 

I agree. Am sure it could be done and was used on occasion, but the only reference I recall was Goodson re: fight 190s - once - in a P-51. And his book is great reading but seems sometimes a little creative.

 

I know you could dial flaps - I have for PFLs and I know guys do it for aerobatics  - but in a sweary situation of BFMs the cost and effort suggest it was not nearly as easy or smooth as we have it.

Just now, EAF19_Marsh said:

Even a LaGG or P-40 will spank a 109 in a treetop nose-to-tail merry-go-round.

 

A 109 should prevail as long as he keeps it out of plane; the turn plus climb shoukd be enough. But that is a lot of ‘should’

[=X51=VC_]

29 minutes ago, Disarray said:

VC, you are in part correct. The high speed turning ability of the Yak makes it dangerous in a high speed turning fight. The same can be said for LaGG's and to some extent the P-40. But if you drop the speed sufficiently the 109 will take the edge in cornering. At that point it is all about the leading edge slats, which most Soviet planes lack. Those little guys extend the stall window on the 109 leaving them well in control at low speed. If a Soviet plane tries to follow them into these low speed maneuvers they will either fall out of the sky or over shoot. In both cases this is to the 109's advantage in single combat. If you add in other planes it can be a crap shoot. On the one hand the 109 is left in a somewhat vulnerable position, but on the other hand if the Soviet is trying to stick with him for the kill it is no great feat for a second German to swoop in for the kill. Add to this the generally excellent power to weight ratio of most 109 models and you can claw back the speed lost in short order. It is these kind of fights I like the best, where both planes are a threat to one another. It pits pilot against pilot, none of this relying purely on the mechanical superiority of the 109 to carry the day. 

 

The slats and power to weight ratio are great, you can drag the plane around at below 200km/h if you have to (especially if you dump flaps as well), still climbing and in full control! In that sense, I love how the 109 flies. But I find that low speed trick to not be much help in a standard turn fight. The slats add a lot of drag, you corner tighter but you lose more energy doing it and in the end your actual turn rate suffers. A few months ago I did a long nose-to-tail sequence in a G-2 against a La-5 and it was basically even over a span of 5+ minutes. Where the slats absolutely work wonders though is in scissors!

[CrazyDuck]

Do only Yaks fancy this perk or is it a general flight model thing?

 

[EAF19_Marsh]

6 minutes ago, CrazyDuck said:

Do only Yaks fancy this perk or is it a general flight model thing?

 

Yakiators seem to use it a lot, I never flew these enough to ‘get’ it

[=X51=VC_]

50 minutes ago, CrazyDuck said:

Do only Yaks fancy this perk or is it a general flight model thing?

 

 

It's mainly a Yak thing because they have a one-press instant release flap that only has "closed" and "full open" settings and switches very fast between the two. I've seen La-5s do it as well, their flaps deploy pretty fast too but as a continuous motion not "pop out".

[StickMan]

Yak seems very energy efficient in general. The flap thing does seem a little off, it doesn't seem to bleed energy as it should. 

 

Of course I could be wrong.

That's my experience anyway fighting and flying them. Although if this FM behavior is wrong I don't find it to be a game breaking exploit. It should still be fixed if needed, however.

[Talon_]

10 hours ago, =X51=VC_ said:

 

It's mainly a Yak thing because they have a one-press instant release flap that only has "closed" and "full open" settings and switches very fast between the two. I've seen La-5s do it as well, their flaps deploy pretty fast too but as a continuous motion not "pop out".

 

The Yak's flaps are pneumatic and will stay closed at high speed even when deployed as the actuators have very low power compared to the air drag on the flap surface. They only "pop out" in a slow fight.

[HandyNasty]

About the usage of flaps for the yak, I noticed a huge difference between the two versions of the yak-1 and the the yak-7b. In case of the 1 and 1B it helps turn while adding drag, in case of the 7B it makes nose droop down, doesn't help in turn (maybe at speeds lower than 200kph? idk) and just adds drag.

Maybe just an impressions since I haven't used flaps that much on yaks. But I have consistently beaten yak-7B's which deployed flaps and have been consistently beaten by 109 whenever I deployed flaps in the 7B in close quarter fights (note: speeds didn't go under 200kph in those close quarter fights). 

 

Does anyone have the same impression of difference in flaps between yak-1 and yak-7?