ShamrockOneFive Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 I've been playing a bit more with Battle of Stalingrad and I'm noticing that the tracers all seem to be the same colour. I might be missing something but that's the way it appears. I don't know if tracer colours were as pronounced as they were in IL-2 but I'm curious if anyone knows or has seen a comment from the devs about the colours of tracers. This is a fairly small thing and I'm sure they have bigger fish to fry before they start playing around with that type of thing but I thought I'd toss it out there and ask.
Camille88 Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 I think they are still WIP. They are to big and the smoke trail is no aming help for the pilot.
J4SCrisZeri Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 I don't like coloured tracer myself; in spite of hystorical accuracy, I prefer them white hot.
Jaws2002 Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 I prefer historical colors, based on the burning color of the chemicals they contain. 7
J4SCrisZeri Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 you're absolutely right. It's just my thing, when I see green , red, yellow tracers, no matter how correct they look, this kills my immersion, don't know why. All of a sudden I feel like I'm playing Unreal or Halo.
Kleinburger Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Marines engaging targets during a night range session.
ShamrockOneFive Posted January 26, 2014 Author Posted January 26, 2014 you're absolutely right. It's just my thing, when I see green , red, yellow tracers, no matter how correct they look, this kills my immersion, don't know why. All of a sudden I feel like I'm playing Unreal or Halo. I know what you mean but the thing I try and remember is that Halo and Unreal and... Star Wars for that matter, was trying to recreate the look of WWII. WWII combat is still the thing that still dominates movies, special effects artists, etc. That's why (one of the reasons anyways) I find it so very interesting because that conflict has dominated popular culture so completely. Marines engaging targets during a night range session. Interesting! Looks like lasers :D I'm probably not going to get too worried about the tracer stuff so long as they are done as accurately as possible. I was just curious if there had been any talk... since I hadn't seen too much. I'm sure there is a great many things that are still WIP.
Jaws2002 Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 M42 and M60 fire on hillside in attempt to kill harassing sniper- Phu Tai, Vietnam 173rd Airborne-1970 2
Sternjaeger Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 over the years I have read more than one pilot recalling the shock and awe caused by seeing for the first time the fantastic yet deadly fireworks display offered by tracers.
Jaws2002 Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) And this are all in 7.62x39mm. Edited January 26, 2014 by Jaws2002
steppenwolf Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 (edited) I think historical colors for tracers kinda goes without saying. My concern about the tracers so far has to do with their physical behavior. They don't seem to have any velocity and appear too fat relative to daytime firing. From what I've noticed, real tracers 'streak' or 'elongate' in appearance when entering the viewers perspective from oblique angles; balling up only when far ahead and centered to this viewpoint. Also, when ambient light is low the tracers tend to appear fatter in illumination. This video shows many tracers entering the POV from oblique angles and their clear elongation. Also, they're quite thin. And on a side note, there's good footage of engine fires WITHOUT thick black smoke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uhpoLJHTTc I think this video shows the 'fattening' effect because of low light, also it shows motion through elongation again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31vm3-BQRJU Edited February 16, 2014 by steppenwolf 1
Cybermat47 Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 I know what you mean but the thing I try and remember is that Halo and Unreal and... Star Wars for that matter, was trying to recreate the look of WWII. WWII combat is still the thing that still dominates movies, special effects artists, etc. That's why (one of the reasons anyways) I find it so very interesting because that conflict has dominated popular culture so completely. You've got a point there.
Jaws2002 Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 How tracers look depends on a lot of things and many people want them made in diferent ways. Some people want tracers to look like in the guncam video they watched. The problem is that human eye sees light and moving objects one way, while cameras see them ( and show them) in many different ways, depending on hardware, software, technology and quality of equipement. It's not exactly easy to get a fast moving light, in game, shown the way the human eye sees it. First the designers have to actually understand what is going on, then they have to make the game engine recreate what's going and finally the hardware/game has to run fast enough to be able to render it properly.
Emgy Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 The problem is that human eye sees light and moving objects one way, while cameras see them ( and show them) in many different ways, yep! for example Tracers look fatter than the barrel.
steppenwolf Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 Yes, exactly. Because of the low light they appear fatter. Street lights will appear quite dim when they first switch on at dusk, but as the night darkens they appear more bright. This effect has nothing to do with cameras. But admittedly, cameras do alter things. Propellers, and their spinning, are a prime example. Also, the shaking effect of the tracers in the above videos I posted. Fortunately, I've been going to Knob Creek for years and have seen both phenomenon of which I speak.
steppenwolf Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 Any easy experiment to try at home would be to simply light a sparkler and wave it around. Or, fire a paint gun(preferably with glow in the dark paint).
76SQN-FatherTed Posted February 16, 2014 Posted February 16, 2014 I guess the only people who can comment on this with authority are those who've fired tracers from WW2 aircraft - which is probably quite a small population of this forum. I've seen modern RAF helicopters at night firing whatever guns they have, but I don't suppose it's the same as seeing 1940's ordnance from the cockpit in daylight.
ShamrockOneFive Posted February 17, 2014 Author Posted February 17, 2014 Tracers haven't changed all that much....nor have the principles behind them. In any case, I've seen some changes to the tracers in the latest patch and they are looking pretty good to me. A bit hard to see sometimes against the white background but I can't speak authoritatively on how visible they should be. There's definitely the streaking visible from the sides and the ping pong ball look from dead on which seems fairly convincing. I imagine they will continue to tweak but its looking fairly good now.
APIKalimba Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 On the old banana forum, there was a short interview (video) with a WWII fighter pilot who described tracers passing by his cockpit : they were like glowling ping-pong balls flying pass his plane, missing him by inches... A tracer is basically that ... a small ball of burning powder... The big question is to guess how those balls flying at 1000 ft per sec. were perceived in RL situations... This pilot saw them as balls... Not streaks.. I would guess that the more it is dark outside , the more the balls leave a line of light imprinted on the retina....Only one solution to this enigma : send few guys from 777 shoot tracers at different hours of the day, and describe in details how they perceive that with their naked eyes.... Thay would settle it for good...
steppenwolf Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Knob Creek has all that...and flame throwers! They can perceive to their hearts content. On a side note, who's to say someone remembering things from decades past is recounting them accurately. Or, that they're good a describing phenomenon in detail. Ask one person what color clouds are and they say white, ask someone else and they say grey, yellow, blue... 1
Georgio Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 This is good example of tracers albeit from ground level and from a stationary gun platform. The shells seems to travel slower than you'd imagine but bear in mind that they aren't lasers and the bigger the calibre the slower they travel (generally).
steppenwolf Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Back to our camera thing, a nice detail you can't always see on these low rez videos is that some of the ricochets tumble after they impact with the ground, like a pinwheel. Nice detail I've never seen in a game.
Georgio Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Yep would nice to see a bit more randomness for the deflected tracer, though in reality the round would tend to dig in more from a higher angle especally with a snow covering. Back to our camera thing, a nice detail you can't always see on these low rez videos is that some of the ricochets tumble after they impact with the ground, like a pinwheel. Nice detail I've never seen in a game.
steppenwolf Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 This one is interesting(1:25 or so). Crazy patterns, tracers seem to be hitting all over the place. They mention convergence, but it almost seems like his 50's are loose inside their mounts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=majCxuZWej4 1
ShamrockOneFive Posted February 18, 2014 Author Posted February 18, 2014 This one is interesting(1:25 or so). Crazy patterns, tracers seem to be hitting all over the place. They mention convergence, but it almost seems like his 50's are loose inside their mounts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=majCxuZWej4 The tracers look wild but the actual impacts on the water are fairly consistent... I wonder if there is some frame judder from the old camera/film that is contributing. The tracers might overexpose a bit at the same time so you have a ghosting type effect. Interesting video nonetheless.
APIKalimba Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Knob Creek has all that...and flame throwers! They can perceive to their hearts content. On a side note, who's to say someone remembering things from decades past is recounting them accurately. Or, that they're good a describing phenomenon in detail. Ask one person what color clouds are and they say white, ask someone else and they say grey, yellow, blue... There are those kind of memories that can't be forgotten... Being shot at in a Spitfire by a 109..... your life hanging on a thread... I am pretty sure he was remembering correctly... And this "someone" was a war hero ... and a trained pilot.... Not your " ordinary someone"... Until someone from 777 shoots tracers and takes notes to describe how it looks to the naked eyes, this is still one good testimony to consider. Any film, picture or video of tracers won't be helpful in this discussion if the goal is to mimic what pilots see when firing tracers. Unless some "scientist" provides a camera that simulate human vision and image retension.
ShamrockOneFive Posted February 18, 2014 Author Posted February 18, 2014 There are those kind of memories that can't be forgotten... Being shot at in a Spitfire by a 109..... your life hanging on a thread... I am pretty sure he was remembering correctly... And this "someone" was a war hero ... and a trained pilot.... Not your " ordinary someone"... Until someone from 777 shoots tracers and takes notes to describe how it looks to the naked eyes, this is still one good testimony to consider. Any film, picture or video of tracers won't be helpful in this discussion if the goal is to mimic what pilots see when firing tracers. Unless some "scientist" provides a camera that simulate human vision and image retension. Traumatic memories are just as fallible as normal every day ones. Maybe moreso. Also I object to the notion that someone being a war hero makes them any more valuable as a resource in this specific discussion. Cameras are likely wrong, memories are selective and fallible... I'd go with gathering a mix of first and third hand resources plus whatever video is useful and put together something authentic from that. I doubt we'll have something that is 100% accurate for all occasions. Unless we focus on a tracer simulator
APIKalimba Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Traumatic memories are just as fallible as normal every day ones. Maybe moreso. Also I object to the notion that someone being a war hero makes them any more valuable as a resource in this specific discussion. Cameras are likely wrong, memories are selective and fallible... I'd go with gathering a mix of first and third hand resources plus whatever video is useful and put together something authentic from that. I doubt we'll have something that is 100% accurate for all occasions. Unless we focus on a tracer simulator Well, remembering tracers as " ping pong balls " instead of "streaks of light" ... The guy was there, and this is how it was forever etched is his memory... This is what he saw. Watch Steppenwolf 's videos (post 27) and tell me those WWII pilots describing in every detail how they straffed planes and boats, dog fighted 190 and 109 with all the tactics they used, and bullets ricochets and ballistic behavior of their armements... Do you trust their memories ? Well I do..... They look pretty sharp to me. Anyway, those debates about how tracers SHOULD look are 12 years old now, dating back to 2002 with Oleg... ;-)
Volkoff Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 I imagine that the team will go with historically accurate colors, when they come to that matter. I personally love green tracers, but that is because I am a TIE fighter fanboi. MJ
Georgio Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 I imagine that the team will go with historically accurate colors, when they come to that matter. I personally love green tracers, but that is because I am a TIE fighter fanboi. MJ Wasn't Russian tracer traditionally green? Or maybe I'm just thinking Vietnam.
Georgio Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 The pilot says that he had his convergence set to 2 guns at the top, four in the middle and 2 at the bottom, maybe this accounts for the odd tracer. This one is interesting(1:25 or so). Crazy patterns, tracers seem to be hitting all over the place. They mention convergence, but it almost seems like his 50's are loose inside their mounts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=majCxuZWej4
=RvE=Windmills Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Tracers should not be streaks though right, rather like orbs. Friend says 2:25 is relatively close to what they look like in reality.
steppenwolf Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 There are those kind of memories that can't be forgotten... Being shot at in a Spitfire by a 109..... your life hanging on a thread... I am pretty sure he was remembering correctly... And this "someone" was a war hero ... and a trained pilot.... Not your " ordinary someone"... Until someone from 777 shoots tracers and takes notes to describe how it looks to the naked eyes, this is still one good testimony to consider. Any film, picture or video of tracers won't be helpful in this discussion if the goal is to mimic what pilots see when firing tracers. Unless some "scientist" provides a camera that simulate human vision and image retension. Tracers look damn close to what's in the footage IMO. Yes, they should come to Knob Creek and see for themselves; hit the Thoroughbred Lounge(s) on Dixie along the way. Thanks Georgio. I was at work watching that on mute so I missed it, dah. I guess that kind of convergence makes his spread more like a shotgun's.
Dormouse Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 I wonder when I read through all this if someone ever considered that there exist the possibility that at least one member in the 1C/777 company saw tracers flying in his life. 1
Volkoff Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) Wasn't Russian tracer traditionally green? Or maybe I'm just thinking Vietnam. I believe that green is the traditional tracer color for assault rifles and some machine guns, but the Russians use other colors, like white and red, for various mgs and cannons. For instance, in WW2, I think that our LaGG-3 would have white and red tracers, not green. The I-16 probably will have green tracers and the Yak-1 ShKas machine guns may fire green tracers, but not the Yak-1's cannon. MJ P.S. Whenever I use a VVS plane with green tracers, some of you may overhear me on Teamspeak as I vocalize the elephant roar of the TIE fighter sound. Just tell me to get off comms, as I am simply accidentally holding the Teamspeak chat button down. Edited February 18, 2014 by =69.GIAP=MIKHA
FuriousMeow Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Tracers should not be streaks though right, rather like orbs. Friend says 2:25 is relatively close to what they look like in reality. Depends on time of day, and viewing aspect relative to the weapon. "Balls" during day time when viewed from a close aspect ratio to th weapon, streaks during morning/evening/night viewed from just about any angle except from close to behind the muzzle.
APIKalimba Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Tracers should not be streaks though right, rather like orbs. Friend says 2:25 is relatively close to what they look like in reality. Yep...Look alot like " glowing ping pong balls" woudln't you say ? Rest my point.... But agree that during night time, they might leave a "streaklike " effect due to retinal persistence....
Sternjaeger Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 Yep...Look alot like " glowing ping pong balls" woudln't you say ? Rest my point.... But agree that during night time, they might leave a "streaklike " effect due to retinal persistence.... those are 30mm slugs, you can appreciate they are VERY bright!
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