High altitude - how well is it simulated in IL-2 BOX

[303_Bies]

11 minutes ago, bzc3lk said:

I can see this thing being banned from servers when flown correctly  to its strengths with a cool head.

 

In historical servers like TAW? I don't think so. In pure dogfight server like Berloga? It will not have any advantage. 

Even playing as GB/US i would prefer to loose than to ban so important plane, twice as numerous as Dora.

Servers authors will have to just compensate that to create more historical enviroment.

But a well flight 262 will be the most dangerous plane in the game.

Edited August 3, 2018 by bies

[LeLv76_Erkki]

17 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

People really tend to underestimate the P-51's speed at low altitude

 

 

 

It hits about 415mph at 10k feet, or 667kmh at about 3km, and that's on 67"hg, not 72, or 75, and while flying at that speed it's going to have significantly better handling than any Bf-109, due in no small part to American G-suits.

 

I do know its fast down low too. I just dont think its overall decisively superior to 109 or 190 at low altitudes. Above 6000-6500 m where LW fighters are above their critical alts, it sure is.

[7.GShAP/Silas]

If people would want to ban the 262 from multiplayer campaign servers my head would explode from all these years of flying Soviet against aircraft like the 109F and 190(which many of these same people would never want to ban, and also coincidentally often prefer to fly) .  It would be the ultimate act of cowardice, frankly.

 

When BoBP is released any time I get half a chance I'll fly it.  Low altitude, high altitude, ground attack, interception, whatever.  Not because it's some kind of superplane, but because it's so cool.  I'll be happy to be shot down on approach to land or blown up on the ground before takeoff as long as I get the chance to spawn in it.

Edited August 3, 2018 by 7.GShAP/Silas

[LuftManu]

I also think TAW will benefit from high altitude combat. People will often go up to 20K feet to do a CAP. I remember that on the last two TAWs I had combat at that height. FIghter cover where covering attackers up to 15K and some of them climbed up after we made some bouncing. Also some combats over Anapa on the last TAW did happen at 6.000m Spits vs 109s.

This won't be different and I think people will more often fly at those heights.

[303_Bies]

Last days of TAW we were fighting in Spits Vb at 20-25k feet regularly.

 

BTW. Really competent Spit/Mustang pilot will be able to deny 262's fire solution over and over, 262 will still have an initiative but if it make a mistake or reduce the speed too much to reduce the angle a few degrees more it will find himself at disadvantage. And 262 may be the last plane i would like to be at disadvantage, worse acceleration, roll, turn than props. Only some extreme dive and praying the other guy wont shoot you untill you reach some really big speed.

Edited August 3, 2018 by bies

[=621=Samikatz]

It won't be like fighting Yaks that have to abort a dive before they hit 700 and their ailerons rip off, Thunderbolts and Tempests will be able to safely chase 262s quite far, and I bet you that the allies will pressure the hell out of any airfields that 262s can spawn on

[JonRedcorn]

1 hour ago, wombatBritishBulldogs said:

A lot of plumbing it seems 

 

Wow is that the p47 turbo setup? That is so freaking cool. I was wondering how they set it up.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

1 hour ago, wombatBritishBulldogs said:

A lot of plumbing it seems 

 

 

Do you know which project or museum this is in? Where is this located?

[JonRedcorn]

2 minutes ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

 

Do you know which project or museum this is in? Where is this located?

National Museum of WW II Aviation in Colorado Springs, CO

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Thanks

 

 

[CUJO_1970]

I don't think any aircraft is going to make a tremendous difference in outcome with online play - at least it didn't seem to back in the legacy IL/2 days.

 

Teamwork and talent will beat anything else online.

 

What you will see more than anything is new players getting absolutely wrekt and wondering why their favorite super-plane isn't saving them.

 

 

[Mac_Messer]

7 hours ago, Legioneod said:

I agree with you, ground pounding will be one of my favorite things to do in the Jug but I'll also enjoy dogfighting with it, even if the fight is at low altitude. 

All I was saying is that just because it's not about high alt escorts doesn't mean there aren't going to be high alt fights.

The german players in this game love to fly high as it is so I'm confident we will see plenty of mid-high altitude dogfights.

 

One thing I'd really like to see is a mission that simulated the strafing runs that you see in guncam footage. You just fly around looking for any target of opportunity and maybe strafe a few houses until one explodes in a huge fireball.

P47 can do both, for me rockets-to-tanks straffing is the only mudmoving I`d do. I prefer it over the 190 in any variant. And when the unit is finished it`s thing, there`s always time to shoot some stray LW.

 

Against 109 it`s a tough fight, but I won`t exactly need to save ammo once I get a snapshot solution.

 

I hope the bird will be able to take lots of punishment. I ran out of ammo plenty of times while shooting the P47 in IL2:1946.

[Gambit21]

12 hours ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

It can be about both - P-47D will be the best diving and also fastest fighter in the game above 5500-6000 m or so. And yeah it also carries lots of bombs.

 

It doesn't "ALSO" carry lots of bombs...with rare exceptions that's it's primary job in 1944-45, period. That and tearing ground targets up with those 8 .50's.

I'm talking withing the context of this release and map of course...yes you can do whatever you want online, or in a custom mission offline.

I can tell you this, the career will be 9th Air Force mud-moving, and so will my Hell Hawks scripted campaign.

 

Even when 9th Air Force units found themselves on fighter sweeps, and it did (rarely) happen, these engagements were at medium altitudes, 12 to 14 thousand feet.

When a 9th Air Force flight lead got a call from the sector area controller (Mudguard, Sweepstakes, etc) and were vectored toward incoming bogeys, were' still talking in the 12 to 14 thousand feet range, broadly speaking. Much of the time the fighting ended up at tree top level.

 

If you're going to make a "now that we're getting X, what about high altitude" statement, in the context of this release, then you should be speaking about

the Mustang. 8th Air Force units that were 'on loan' to Gen Quesada during the Bulge, like the 352nd, they flew in support of 9th units, but also found themselves flying escort missions still

into Germany on some days from their bases in Belgium. So it's the Mustang that would find itself at high altitude on this map, not the Jug. But there’s no heavies, so...

 

In the scripted campaign your crew chief will be polishing green fir tree stains from your wingtips.

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Gambit21

[angus26]

One thing I’d really like to see also is an accurate portrayal of the turbo in the plane. Knowing the quality that we get, I’m not worrying in the slightest, because I know they’ll do their best to accurately portray the turbo, as well as the rest of the systems in the plane. 

[LeLv76_Erkki]

20 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Spoiler

 

It doesn't "ALSO" carry lots of bombs...with rare exceptions that's it's primary job in 1944-45, period. That and tearing ground targets up with those 8 .50's.

I'm talking withing the context of this release and map of course...yes you can do whatever you want online, or in a custom mission offline.

I can tell you this, the career will be 9th Air Force mud-moving, and so will my Hell Hawks scripted campaign.

 

Even when 9th Air Force units found themselves on fighter sweeps, and it did (rarely) happen, these engagements were at medium altitudes, 12 to 14 thousand feet.

When a 9th Air Force flight lead got a call from the sector area controller (Mudguard, Sweepstakes, etc) and were vectored toward incoming bogeys, were' still talking in the 12 to 14 thousand feet range, broadly speaking. Much of the time the fighting ended up at tree top level.

 

If you're going to make a "now that we're getting X, what about high altitude" statement, in the context of this release, then you should be speaking about

the Mustang. 8th Air Force units that were 'on loan' to Gen Quesada during the Bulge, like the 352nd, they flew in support of 9th units, but also found themselves flying escort missions still

into Germany on some days from their bases in Belgium. So it's the Mustang that would find itself at high altitude on this map, not the Jug.

 

 

 

Personally I dont care much about single player career but whats awesome about this game is it caters to a wide audience of people who like different things from single player to air quake to online campaigns, have different setups and different amount of experience from vets to newcomers. We also cant enforce historical scenarios only, starting from player numbers balance. Most Fw 190s in the East Front were also ground pounders, guess if they're ground pounders in multiplayer? No, most of the time they're not. I know very well P-47s were CAS planes in late 1944, but we're still getting a plane that can and will do wide varity of tasks.

 

But high altitude combat is relevant to it because it will be the first plane in this sim to be able to challenge and win the 109 in what are its strong points in the East. And that will be interesting and provide us with new kind of air combat dynamics, as we remember from previous games.

[Gambit21]

21 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

Personally I dont care much about single player career but whats awesome about this game is it caters to a wide audience of people who like different things from single player to air quake to online campaigns, have different setups and different amount of experience from vets to newcomers. We also cant enforce historical scenarios only, starting from player numbers balance. Most Fw 190s in the East Front were also ground pounders, guess if they're ground pounders in multiplayer? No, most of the time they're not. I know very well P-47s were CAS planes in late 1944, but we're still getting a plane that can and will do wide varity of tasks.

 

But high altitude combat is relevant to it because it will be the first plane in this sim to be able to challenge and win the 109 in what are its strong points in the East. And that will be interesting and provide us with new kind of air combat dynamics, as we remember from previous games.

 

 

All valid points - which is why I said that you can do whatever you want online (E-Sports)

[Cpt_Siddy]

It will be different experience to pilot nearly 10 metric tons fighter, that is so big that you can fit yak in its cockpit and 109 on its wing 

[MiloMorai]

It will be interesting to see if the 109 wallows around like a drunk at 30,000'.

[Gambit21]

4 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

It will be interesting to see if the 109 wallows around like a drunk at 30,000'.

 

There will be nobody else there to see it if it does.

[Legioneod]

8 hours ago, bzc3lk said:

 

That applies to any aircraft not only the 262.

 

Sorry but speed is everything, it allows you to dictate whether you wish to fight or run  , Spad vs  Dr1 mp ring any bells? I can see this thing being banned from servers when flown correctly  to its strengths with a cool head.

I never really had any problem taking on the Spad in the Dr1, I'd just keep evading his attacks until he screws up or I get a shot.

Patience and awareness are key when you are in the slower aircraft.

The 262 wont be any game changer, I fear the K-4 or D-9 more than I do the 262.

[Cpt_Siddy]

262 has a turn radius of a small county, it is interceptor. 

 

D-9 is the most potent tool in axis arsenal to deal with other fighters. 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Don't worry, the action will never be high enough for it to matter.

[ZachariasX]

17 hours ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

But high altitude combat is relevant to it because it will be the first plane in this sim to be able to challenge and win the 109 in what are its strong points in the East.

The Spit IX does that already. You need the G-14 or K-4 to be in a position of choosing the fight, but once you start the close in dance, even at 18 boost the Spit has the advantage. 

 

The Jug has to be flown proficiently to make full use of its tremdous power to stay above the 109. It also has a good roll rate at high speeds, both of which should enable it to keep the initiative.

[Legioneod]

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

The Spit IX does that already. You need the G-14 or K-4 to be in a position of choosing the fight, but once you start the close in dance, even at 18 boost the Spit has the advantage. 

 

The Jug has to be flown proficiently to make full use of its tremdous power to stay above the 109. It also has a good roll rate at high speeds, both of which should enable it to keep the initiative.

Jug pilot will have to be smart but he can do alot of things better than the 109 already so he already has the advantage.

 

I haven't flown the Spit yet but I read that it is a beast currently.

[Quinte]

21 hours ago, LF_ManuV said:

I also think TAW will benefit from high altitude combat. People will often go up to 20K feet to do a CAP. I remember that on the last two TAWs I had combat at that height. FIghter cover where covering attackers up to 15K and some of them climbed up after we made some bouncing. Also some combats over Anapa on the last TAW did happen at 6.000m Spits vs 109s.

 

Hell, I've been fighting 109s in my Yak-1 at 6km on WoL just for fun.

But then, at 6km, the tempest (you know, that low-alt-only plane) is faster than the jug. You'd have to get at about 9 km to see the thunderbolt actually getting faster than the P-51. Good luck finding anyone to fight up there anyway.

 A P-47 running on 150 octane fuel would probably have been a good fighter at realistic altitudes, but that's not what we're getting. Realistically, the jug will be one of the two best ground attack aircrafts, but the underdog when it comes to air-to-air. Which makes it fun.

[ZachariasX]

10 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

I haven't flown the Spit yet but I read that it is a beast currently.

It is a great ride, and I think in the game it is very well done. Markedly superior than the Mk.V in performance, while losing a tiny bit of agility.

 

It is IMHO for practical purposes on par or better in performance than the best German rides we currently have in the game. On top of that, it is useful throughout the speed range. Only at very slow speeds a VERY good 109 driver can get a shot at you doing a scissor, applying higher higher slow speed AoA by using the slats and closing the angle on you. The 190 needs to go 550+ km/h to even dream of getting a solid chance in a 1 vs 1. Going fast and at altitude, it can play still a good hand. On the deck, they are dead. No wonder that the Russians thought little of it, in contrast to the 109 that is much better in taking a fight on the Spitfires (or Yaks) terms. The problem remains that it gets only an edge over the Spit below about 350 km/h, which is a dangerous situation anyway if there‘s a crowd.

 

The Jug won‘t allow you being dragged in a fight on the 109‘s terms. In the Spit, just a little care will get you the upper hand quickly. In my experience, the good pilots on Berloga usually disengage quickly (they stay with you less than 1/4 of a turn) if they don‘t get a proper shot to maintain speed and initiative. They only stay with you if you did something wrong (they know) and get the desired result.

 

I‘m really looking forward to the 190 D9 that is powerful enough to stay out of hitting range of the 18 boost Spit. With its power and high speed handling qualities, it should be a formidable adversary in fast combat, a situation where the 109 K4 still falls short. Once we have the Tempest, this deficiency will accentuate the 109‘s shortcoming despite its notable speed and climb.

[Legioneod]

1 minute ago, Quinte said:

 

Hell, I've been fighting 109s in my Yak-1 at 6km on WoL just for fun.

But then, at 6km, the tempest (you know, that low-alt-only plane) is faster than the jug. You'd have to get at about 9 km to see the thunderbolt actually getting faster than the P-51. Good luck finding anyone to fight up there anyway.

 A P-47 running on 150 octane fuel would probably have been a good fighter at realistic altitudes, but that's not what we're getting. Realistically, the jug will be one of the two best ground attack aircrafts, but the underdog when it comes to air-to-air. Which makes it fun.

I really wouldn't call the Jug an underdog, sure it wont be the fastest at lower alt. but it still has a better role, dive, and zoom than the 109 and it can hang with the A-8 in a turn for a while at low alt.

[Quinte]

We've had this discussion already. You keep talking about that "zoom" while still ignoring a basic fact. Zoom climb are compared at equal starting speeds. If you are slower to begin with, and are markedly inferior in sustained climb (which by the way happens sooner on a jug that on a 109), you end up getting killed or loosing the energy battle.

 

The dive is great, but from comparisons made by the USAAF, it's not as good as the P-51's (hence, obviously, not as good as the tempest, which zooms and dives better, while being faster). It still useable, no doubt, but amongst the four fighters we get on the allied side, it's the least adapted to A2A. If you had the collector ones, then I guess it somewhat shares that title with the P-38, but I'm not quite sure there.

 

 

[The_Gunfighter]

23 hours ago, -IRRE-Therion said:

 

Well said - I really hope this bird will not cause any bias thread again nor will we have some German fighter frustration. This bird is beautiful, an epic engineering masterpiece,

but it wasn't that successful - maybe if produced much earlier and in bigger number, who knows. On the other hand - thanks god, it came too late.

 

It didn't cause any server bias the old game lol......We'd sit up high in Jugs and Corsairs and just fall on them like anvils over and over again. 

[Legioneod]

17 minutes ago, Quinte said:

We've had this discussion already. You keep talking about that "zoom" while still ignoring a basic fact. Zoom climb are compared at equal starting speeds. If you are slower to begin with, and are markedly inferior in sustained climb (which by the way happens sooner on a jug that on a 109), you end up getting killed or loosing the energy battle.

 

The dive is great, but from comparisons made by the USAAF, it's not as good as the P-51's (hence, obviously, not as good as the tempest, which zooms and dives better, while being faster). It still useable, no doubt, but amongst the four fighters we get on the allied side, it's the least adapted to A2A. If you had the collector ones, then I guess it somewhat shares that title with the P-38, but I'm not quite sure there.

 

 

Considering that I'm not going to be fighting other allied aircraft, their performance vs the Jug doesn't really concern me. I can do certain things better vs the 109 and as long as I play it smart and use my advantages in dive and roll (and zoom, when applicable) I'll come out on top.

 

Sustained climb has nothing to do with zoom climb, of course the 109 has a much better sustained climb than the Jug but that doesn't matter when it comes to a zoom climb.

A zoom climb by definition is unsustainable. 

 

If I do find myself at a disadvantage I'll dive and extend, he wont be able to catch me and even if he does my high seed handling is markedly better so I'll be able to evade him in the dive.

[The_Gunfighter]

"The dive is great, but from comparisons made by the USAAF, it's not as good as the P-51's....."

 

I gotta disagree with you there my man. Jug outweighs it by damn near twice as much, and since you can't deny gravity I'd be surprised to find something going against that. Now, Mustang was an aerodynamic marvel, sure, but the negative side of that was wings coming off the plane at around 450 indicated, something that also did happen in a Jug. 

 

Wanna amend your statement a little?

 

~Rob

[Algy-Lacey]

On 8/3/2018 at 8:29 AM, Legioneod said:

I agree though that the sweet pot is around 25k feet, not much reason to go above that altitude.

 

Woah dude, even the sweetest Pot doesn't get me that high! 

[Quinte]

The speed limit for dives was 505mph for the P-51, 500 for the 47. As the comparison was actually made, I don't need to amend that statement. The mustang pulls away in both dives and zoom climbs.

[Legioneod]

12 minutes ago, WWGunfighter said:

"The dive is great, but from comparisons made by the USAAF, it's not as good as the P-51's....."

 

I gotta disagree with you there my man. Jug outweighs it by damn near twice as much, and since you can't deny gravity I'd be surprised to find something going against that. Now, Mustang was an aerodynamic marvel, sure, but the negative side of that was wings coming off the plane at around 450 indicated, something that also did happen in a Jug. 

 

Wanna amend your statement a little?

 

~Rob

Agreed, the Jug was known to achieve dive speeds of over 500+ indicated but it suffered from compressibility and control loss at those speeds, this was remedied with the D-30 however with the addition of dive flaps.

7 minutes ago, Quinte said:

The speed limit for dives was 505mph for the P-51, 500 for the 47. As the comparison was actually made, I don't need to amend that statement. The mustang pulls away in both dives and zoom climbs.

Speed limit and actual attainable speed are two different things. The jug can dive faster than the P-51 hands down. The reason the P-47 limit was 500 was due to compressibility, the controls would lock up until entering lower atmosphere.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Legioneod

[Quinte]

What do you not get in "the comparison was actually made"? In fact even the Mustang X (which definitely wasn't as aerodynamic as the later mustangs B, C and D) accelerated faster and stayed in front of a jug in tests.

 

You keep trying to apply to late war statements and ideas that were true when the 47 made it's first apparitions in the war. At that point it was pretty much the best diver (with the 38). That's not true anymore at that point. It remained very good at it, obviously, but it's definitely not the wonder it was at first.

[LuftManu]

I think we will find out soon but if you fly high, you will fight high in most cases. I remember doing patrols on TAW at high heights and most escorts were flying at that level because of that. USAAF and RAF flyers will take advatnage of height and also LW will have to intercept them.

[Legioneod]

4 minutes ago, Quinte said:

What do you not get in "the comparison was actually made"? In fact even the Mustang X (which definitely wasn't as aerodynamic as the later mustangs B, C and D) accelerated faster and stayed in front of a jug in tests.

 

You keep trying to apply to late war statements and ideas that were true when the 47 made it's first apparitions in the war. At that point it was pretty much the best diver (with the 38). That's not true anymore at that point. It remained very good at it, obviously, but it's definitely not the wonder it was at first.

The 109 and 190 could also stick with a jug in a dive for a while but the Jug will overshoot it.

 

Dive acceleration =/= Dive Speed. The 109, 190, and P-51 all accelerate faster in a dive than the Jug but the Jug has an overall faster Dive speed and will overtake every one of those aircraft in a dive.

[JV69badatflyski]

23 hours ago, wombatBritishBulldogs said:

A lot of plumbing it seems 

 

 

Indeed, a lot of plumbing, just like in a car...
what i see is a fragile systeme, in the fact that just a small hole from a 7.92 will make this stuff loose a lot of pressure and one 20mmMineGesh. will simply rip the plumbing apart, making the engine loose all it's pressure, what means just enough power to stay in flight and go home.
So the question would be: is this syteme 3d modelled and especially is there a DM(hitboxes) linked to it? (to all componements, plumbing, intercooler, turbo)

 

[Dr_Molem]

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

It is a great ride, and I think in the game it is very well done. Markedly superior than the Mk.V in performance, while losing a tiny bit of agility.

 

It is IMHO for practical purposes on par or better in performance than the best German rides we currently have in the game. On top of that, it is useful throughout the speed range. Only at very slow speeds a VERY good 109 driver can get a shot at you doing a scissor, applying higher higher slow speed AoA by using the slats and closing the angle on you. The 190 needs to go 550+ km/h to even dream of getting a solid chance in a 1 vs 1. Going fast and at altitude, it can play still a good hand. On the deck, they are dead. No wonder that the Russians thought little of it, in contrast to the 109 that is much better in taking a fight on the Spitfires (or Yaks) terms. The problem remains that it gets only an edge over the Spit below about 350 km/h, which is a dangerous situation anyway if there‘s a crowd.

 

The Jug won‘t allow you being dragged in a fight on the 109‘s terms. In the Spit, just a little care will get you the upper hand quickly. In my experience, the good pilots on Berloga usually disengage quickly (they stay with you less than 1/4 of a turn) if they don‘t get a proper shot to maintain speed and initiative. They only stay with you if you did something wrong (they know) and get the desired result.

 

I‘m really looking forward to the 190 D9 that is powerful enough to stay out of hitting range of the 18 boost Spit. With its power and high speed handling qualities, it should be a formidable adversary in fast combat, a situation where the 109 K4 still falls short. Once we have the Tempest, this deficiency will accentuate the 109‘s shortcoming despite its notable speed and climb.

 

LoL Spit IX is such an easy target while flying my 190, the bests 1v1 i got to live were against Spit IXs, there's almost nothing they can do against a well flown 190.

 

In IL-2, a LaGG-3 is more dangerous against 190s than Spit IX will ever be, i let you guess why, and yes i'm serious.

[=621=Samikatz]

2 hours ago, WWGunfighter said:

Jug outweighs it by damn near twice as much, and since you can't deny gravity I'd be surprised to find something going against that.

 

Gravity pulls on everything the same, air resistance is what causes objects to fall at a different rate. Case in point: