High altitude - how well is it simulated in IL-2 BOX

[CrazyDuck]

With P-47 arriving, this is becoming more and more important question.

So how well does the game engine simulate the high altitude aerodynamics and plane behavior?

 

 

[RedKestrel]

Pretty good I think...engine overheats more common, thinner air makes turning and climbing more difficult the higher you go, etc. Mixture and superchargers are modeled pretty well, so the right engine setting is important. I think pretty good, though I honestly don't spend much time there right now. There's a few high-alt specialty planes like the MiG-3 that would be good for testing things out.

[-SF-Disarray]

The high alt aerodynamics also seem to account for the lower drag associated with the lowered air pressure. The times I've taken bombers way up high to avoid CAP I've noticed a marked improvement in speed when the engines are set properly for the alt. For planes that don't do so well with altitude, like Yaks, they do struggle when you bring them up high. It will be interesting to see how the 47 manages altitude. From what I've read it should be a good time.

[Legioneod]

Once the P-47 arrives it will be the best high alt fighter in the game, it's going to be very interesting to get into fights at high alt with a very capable fighter.

[angus26]

I’d want to see hypoxia, or atleast something similar to happen at extreme altitudes. Right now having a broken O2 system doesn’t do a whole lot. (I heard a rumor about high altitudes/hypoxia causing less g tolerance in game,but I’m not too sure) 

Edited August 3, 2018 by angus26

[ZachariasX]

3 hours ago, angus26 said:

I’d want to see hypoxia, or atleast something similar to happen at extreme altitudes. Right now having a broken O2 system doesn’t do a whole lot. (I heard a rumor about high altitudes/hypoxia causing less g tolerance in game,but I’m not too sure) 

Hypoxia isn‘t modelled yet. It is assumed that the oxygen system just works. Most planes can fly at altitudes that would endanger the pilot if he wasn‘t using the oxygen mask. 

 

3 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Once the P-47 arrives it will be the best high alt fighter in the game, it's going to be very interesting to get into fights at high alt with a very capable fighter.

 

It is of note that the P47 is not really shines around 8000 meters where the turbo still gives it great performance, especially in zoom climbs. Going much above (depending on weather) that will reach the max of what the turbocharger can give (overspeed) and it will also drop off in power.

 

 

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Object draw range that unfortunately also effects contrails is imho major problem up high. It needs to be increased at least by a couple of km.

[Gambit21]

13 hours ago, CrazyDuck said:

With P-47 arriving, this is becoming more and more important question.

Not really - this release is about IX TAC P-47’s, not 8th Air Force, so high altitude is neither here nor there.

This is about mud moving, not high alt escort.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Gambit21

[LeLv76_Erkki]

5 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Not really - this release is about IX TAC P-47’s, not 8th Air Firce, so high altitude is neither here nor there.

This is about mud moving, not high alt escort.

 

It can be about both - P-47D will be the best diving and also fastest fighter in the game above 5500-6000 m or so. And yeah it also carries lots of bombs.

[Legioneod]

21 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

It is of note that the P47 is not really shines around 8000 meters where the turbo still gives it great performance, especially in zoom climbs. Going much above (depending on weather) that will reach the max of what the turbocharger can give (overspeed) and it will also drop off in power.

 

 

 

Depending on the block the optimum performance is around 25k feet but even above 8000m it will still be one of the top performers.

4 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Not really - this release is about IX TAC P-47’s, not 8th Air Firce, so high altitude is neither here nor there.

This is about mud moving, not high alt escort.

All depends on the mission makers. They could always put B-25s at around 15-20k feet and have players fly topcover over them.

You don't need heavy bombers to have high alt fights.

Mid-high alt fights happen often enough in multiplayer as it is, and once the P-51 and P-47 enter the fray there will be even more reason for both German and Allied players to fly high.

[ZachariasX]

14 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Depending on the block the optimum performance is around 25k feet but even above 8000m it will still be one of the top performers.

I took that number mainly as a general sweet spot of the P47 vs the competition. And also to illustrate that high altitude for the P47 doesn‘t mean 12‘000 meters, as for some Spitfire marks (or some more rare 109).

 

The limit there is basically max. turbo rpm, before power willstart to drop (or you blowing the turbo) somthing that is shared among the different blocks.

 

I am very, very curious how the turbocharger will be modelled. 

[Legioneod]

7 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

I took that number mainly as a general sweet spot of the P47 vs the competition. And also to illustrate that high altitude for the P47 doesn‘t mean 12‘000 meters, as for some Spitfire marks (or some more rare 109).

 

The limit there is basically max. turbo rpm, before power willstart to drop (or you blowing the turbo) somthing that is shared among the different blocks.

 

I am very, very curious how the turbocharger will be modelled. 

The P-47 service ceiling is 42k ft (around 13000 meters) of course it's not going to be at max performance or power at that altitude but neither is any spitfire or 109 variant.

Once the turbo starts to overspeed all you need to do is reduce rpms on the turbo.

 

I agree though that the sweet pot is around 25k feet, not much reason to go above that altitude.

[Bremspropeller]

Gambit is taking the historical perspective - the area of and around the eventual Bodenplatte map was the playing ground of 2nd TAF and IX Air Force.

VIII AF only had a single fighter group (correct me if wrong) - the 56th - operating Thunderbolts at the timeframe to be modelled.

 

Of course you're correct when saying mission designers can do whatever they want.

 

I think it's funny though, that when a scenario comes to the table that is almost entirely about fighter-bombers and low (medium at max) altitudes, people come from under their stones, discussing the merits of high altitude fighters. People should take a step or two back ans realize there's more out there than dogfighting.

I'm personally much more interested in tearing up bridges and railway-intersections (yeah, gimme a big, fat marshalling yard to dig around and feck up a little), than punching holes in another fighter at 20000ft ?

 

Anybody got anymore of them Bazookas?

[Legioneod]

15 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Gambit is taking the historical perspective - the area of and around the eventual Bodenplatte map was the playing ground of 2nd TAF and IX Air Force.

VIII AF only had a single fighter group (correct me if wrong) - the 56th - operating Thunderbolts at the timeframe to be modelled.

 

Of course you're correct when saying mission designers can do whatever they want.

 

I think it's funny though, that when a scenario comes to the table that is almost entirely about fighter-bombers and low (medium at max) altitudes, people come from under their stones, discussing the merits of high altitude fighters. People should take a step or two back ans realize there's more out there than dogfighting.

I'm personally much more interested in tearing up bridges and railway-intersections (yeah, gimme a big, fat marshalling yard to dig around and feck up a little), than punching holes in another fighter at 20000ft ?

 

Anybody got anymore of them Bazookas?

I agree with you, ground pounding will be one of my favorite things to do in the Jug but I'll also enjoy dogfighting with it, even if the fight is at low altitude. 

All I was saying is that just because it's not about high alt escorts doesn't mean there aren't going to be high alt fights.

The german players in this game love to fly high as it is so I'm confident we will see plenty of mid-high altitude dogfights.

 

One thing I'd really like to see is a mission that simulated the strafing runs that you see in guncam footage. You just fly around looking for any target of opportunity and maybe strafe a few houses until one explodes in a huge fireball.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Legioneod

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

56 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

The P-47 service ceiling is 42k ft (around 13000 meters) of course it's not going to be at max performance or power at that altitude but neither is any spitfire or 109 variant.

Once the turbo starts to overspeed all you need to do is reduce rpms on the turbo.

 

I agree though that the sweet pot is around 25k feet, not much reason to go above that altitude.

25k feet is for the Turbocharger limited to 18,500RPM. This limit was for the Razorback Jugs.

D-25 to D-35 manual have the turbocharger limit bumped up to 20,000RPM max continuous and 22,000RPM for 15 minutes which would bump the critical altitude to ~30k ft

[Legioneod]

5 minutes ago, RoflSeal said:

25k feet is for the Turbocharger limited to 18,500RPM. This limit was for the Razorback Jugs.

D-25 to D-35 manual have the turbocharger limit bumped up to 20,000RPM max continuous and 22,000RPM for 15 minutes which would bump the critical altitude to ~30k ft

I'm aware, like I said it all depends on the block number. I don't really plan on going above 25k unless I need a slight advantage.

20-25k is sufficient for anything I'll be facing.

[Herne]

6 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Once the P-47 arrives it will be the best high alt fighter in the game, it's going to be very interesting to get into fights at high alt with a very capable fighter.

 

In a release built around ground pounders for what reason would a p47 have to go high alt ? It's not like they will be escorting b17's.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

1 minute ago, =FEW=Herne said:

 

In a release built around ground pounders for what reason would a p47 have to go high alt ? It's not like they will be escorting b17's.

 

Air superiority?

[7.GShAP/Silas]

5 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

Air superiority?

 

 

From space?  As shown in MP currently "air superiority" at such high altitudes is meaningless when the battle rages 5km below.  The fighters have to go where the objectives are eventually, or else lose.  We've all seen some choose to lose, though.

Edited August 3, 2018 by 7.GShAP/Silas

[Herne]

1 minute ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

Air superiority?

 

I doubt it, unless you throw in the odd high altitude recon in MP most fighters should want to stay at an altitude where they can still spot stuff at low altitude.

 

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Just now, =FEW=Herne said:

 

I doubt it, unless you throw in the odd high altitude recon in MP most fighters should want to stay at an altitude where they can still spot stuff at low altitude.

 

 

Yes, but say, if there are ground targets and LW fighters protecting them at between 1500-3500 m -ish, so that they can bounce to deck in one go, it makes sense for sweepers to approach the area higher than that. In TAW we get combat at altitudes of over 7000 m every now and then despite the campaign being very ground support oriented.

[Legioneod]

14 minutes ago, =FEW=Herne said:

 

In a release built around ground pounders for what reason would a p47 have to go high alt ? It's not like they will be escorting b17's.

Fighter sweep, or just to have fun.

Why do german fighter pilots love flying high in game when all the objectives and enemies are low flying?

4 minutes ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

 

From space?  As shown in MP currently "air superiority" at such high altitudes is meaningless when the battle rages 5km below.  The fighters have to go where the objectives are eventually, or else lose.  We've all seen some choose to lose, though.

No need to ge above 20k, I've been in fights that were above 15-20k, german players just love to fly high even though russians are poor up high, the new lineup will give players even more of a reason to fly high imo, high alt fights are very interesting and fun.

[Herne]

Well it could happen, especially if we get the recon mechanic built into the game, at least then there will be good reasons to go high

[303_Bies]

2 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

I am very, very curious how the turbocharger will be modelled. 

The most important matter when it comes to P-47.

 

3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

Hypoxia isn‘t modelled yet. It is assumed that the oxygen system just works. Most planes can fly at altitudes that would endanger the pilot if he wasn‘t using the oxygen mask.

If i remember well in DD's Jason and Han placed modeling of oxygen equipment on the bodenplatte task list so i hope it will be implemented with official game release.

 

7 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Once the P-47 arrives it will be the best high alt fighter in the game, it's going to be very interesting to get into fights at high alt with a very capable fighter.

Together with Spitfire HF Mk.IXe with Merlin 70 we have.

Edited August 3, 2018 by bies

[7.GShAP/Silas]

1 hour ago, Legioneod said:

Fighter sweep, or just to have fun.

Why do german fighter pilots love flying high in game when all the objectives and enemies are low flying?

 

Part of it is for fun and part of it is consuming too much media(films, etc) that portrays the air war as being up high, so they assume that's where they belong, I think.

 

1 hour ago, Legioneod said:

high alt fights are very interesting and fun.

 

I agree.

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, Legioneod said:

Why do german fighter pilots love flying high in game when all the objectives and enemies are low flying?

It is where they are much superior to the competition. Or... were. As soon as SpitIX, P47, P51 start appearing on servers, you‘ll find them where the Allies found them (unless defending Heavy bombers), this is below the lowest branches of the trees. As of now, they can rack up scores up high, even though often it means losing the round. After BoBP, it will be just losing the round.

[303_Bies]

It will be so interesting to see the high alt performance sweep. Now Germans are hanging above Soviets at 5-6km. In BoBP Allied Spits HF and Thudn will hang over Germans at 8-10km in some more realistic servers like TAW.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

24 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

It is where they are much superior to the competition. Or... were. As soon as SpitIX, P47, P51 start appearing on servers, you‘ll find them where the Allies found them (unless defending Heavy bombers), this is below the lowest branches of the trees. As of now, they can rack up scores up high, even though often it means losing the round. After BoBP, it will be just losing the round.

 

I dont think so. "Just losing" hasnt happened in any old sim either. Neither of the two US fighters nor Spitfire IX are decisevely(if at all) superior to 109 or 190 at low and medium altitudes. It'll be opposite to East where Germans are generally relatively better performing up high and VVS more or less equal or better down low.

[Legioneod]

1 minute ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

I dont think so. "Just losing" hasnt happened in any old sim either. Neither of the two US fighters nor Spitfire IX are decisevely(if at all) superior to 109 or 190 at low and medium altitudes. It'll be opposite to East where Germans are generally relatively better performing up high and VVS more or less equal or better down low.

What will be different is that the Germans will have stiff competition at all altitudes instead of just lower alt.

 

You'll have the P-51 and P-47 which are excellent high alt fighters and are more than capable down low, then the spitfire is capable at almost all alt, especially mid-low alt.

 

German players will have pressure from all angles in Bodenplatte which is something that doesn't happen on the eastern front. In Bodenplatte the Germans wont be superior at any altitude, there will be no safe place for the German pilot in Bodenplatte imo.

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Just now, Legioneod said:

What will be different is that the Germans will have stiff competition at all altitudes instead of just lower alt.

 

You'll have the P-51 and P-47 which are excellent high alt fighters and are more than capable down low, then the spitfire is capable at almost all alt, especially mid-low alt.

 

German players will have pressure from all angles in Bodenplatte which is something that doesn't happen on the eastern front. In Bodenplatte the Germans wont be superior at any altitude, there will be no safe place for the German pilot in Bodenplatte imo.

 

I always thought that the Spitfire too is more dangerous up high than low, because it tends to be relatively much slower at low altitudes. F. IXe with Merlin 66 is barely faster than basic 109 G and will get outrun by 190s. That big wing really drags in thick air. La-5FN is IMHO much more dangerous.

 

Certainly it'll be much more even when it comes to top speeds and climbing, and that will hopefully balance player numbers too in MP.

[bzc3lk]

12 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 In Bodenplatte the Germans wont be superior at any altitude, there will be no safe place for the German pilot in Bodenplatte imo.

 

This will be the safest place for the German pilot in Bodenplatte. 

 

 

[303_Bies]

22 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

German players will have pressure from all angles in Bodenplatte which is something that doesn't happen on the eastern front. In Bodenplatte the Germans wont be superior at any altitude, there will be no safe place for the German pilot in Bodenplatte imo.

 

I agree, Germans have a save heaven, flying 6-7 km they are more or less save and can simply rejoin and choose when or if to attack. I remember last days of TAW when Spitfires Vb with high alt Merlins 46 were the most dangerous opponents for Germans. During fights at 7-9km a bit outdated Spits were at least as good as German planes. Some less experienced/less organised German pilots were loosing badly not being accustomed to the high alt high performance opposition. Better players adapted fast. It was interesting.

Edited August 3, 2018 by bies

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Just now, bies said:

 

I agree, Germans have a save heaven, flying 6-7 km they are more or save and can simply rejoin and choose when or if to attack. I remember last days of TAW when Spitfires Vb with hi alt Merlins 46 were the most dangerous opponents for Germans. During fights at 7-9km a bit outdated Spits were at least as good as German planes. Some less experienced/less organised German pilots were loosing badly not being accustomed to the high alt high performance opposition. It was interesting.

 

I saw many gunpod-carrying 109s challenge the high flying Spits and La5s in turn fights. And my poor Focke had trouble breathing at 9800 m ?

 

I need to fiddle with controller profiles to see if I could link and unlink RPM, throttle and turbo with a button. P-47 will be a very manual plane to fly, especially for people with just one throttle axis.

[Legioneod]

6 minutes ago, bzc3lk said:

 

This will be the safest place for the German pilot in Bodenplatte. 

 

 

 

Sure, if they manage to make it off the ground before being killed. I don't see the 262 being all that successful in a fighter vs fighter role, sure it's fast but speed isn't everything in a fight, it also has short legs so it wont be in action very long.

[THERION]

3 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

Sure, if they manage to make it off the ground before being killed. I don't see the 262 being all that successful in a fighter vs fighter role, sure it's fast but speed isn't everything in a fight, it also has short legs so it wont be in action very long.

 

Well said - I really hope this bird will not cause any bias thread again nor will we have some German fighter frustration. This bird is beautiful, an epic engineering masterpiece,

but it wasn't that successful - maybe if produced much earlier and in bigger number, who knows. On the other hand - thanks god, it came too late.

[303_Bies]

Let's be objective, Me262 in hands of an experienced player will be a beast. As it was even with massive allied numerical advantage which will not be the case in the game. Extremally hard to intercept, attacking from ambust with big speed, with firepower powerfull enoug to destroy the fighter with one scratch.

Edited August 3, 2018 by bies

[wombatBritishBulldogs]

A lot of plumbing it seems 

 

[=621=Samikatz]

42 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

 

Neither of the two US fighters nor Spitfire IX are decisevely(if at all) superior to 109 or 190 at low and medium altitudes.

 

People really tend to underestimate the P-51's speed at low altitude

 

 

It hits about 415mph at 10k feet, or 667kmh at about 3km, and that's on 67"hg, not 72, or 75, and while flying at that speed it's going to have significantly better handling than any Bf-109, due in no small part to American G-suits.

[CountZero]

32 minutes ago, bzc3lk said:

 

This will be the safest place for the German pilot in Bodenplatte. 

 

 

 

thats some tick armor glass, wonder how it will look in game  

[bzc3lk]

17 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

Sure, if they manage to make it off the ground before being killed.

 

That applies to any aircraft not only the 262.

18 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

I don't see the 262 being all that successful in a fighter vs fighter role, sure it's fast but speed isn't everything in a fight, it also has short legs so it wont be in action very long.

 

Sorry but speed is everything, it allows you to dictate whether you wish to fight or run  , Spad vs  Dr1 mp ring any bells? I can see this thing being banned from servers when flown correctly  to its strengths with a cool head.