Flight sim renaissance

[FuriousMeow]

I don't recall ever seeing a keyboard installation in a WW2 fighter aircraft. 

 

 

But you've seen a mouse I'm sure.

[Revvin]

i think the flying combat gnere is very alive you should see the poor racing genre, you cant even play online in no game for the lack of people

That simply isn't true (not that I'm sure anyone is surprised) the racing genre is alive and kicking with iRacing churning out updates and thousands play online daily. Assetto Corsa improving with each beta release and will undoubtedly be very busy online, likewise Project Cars is improving and has multiplayer, rFactor 2 is starting to come into its own now with new content and servers provided by ISI and Bugbear recently released Next Car Game on Steam and such is the interest in Assetto Corsa Netkar Pro was recently greenlit on Steam by fans. Simbin recently released their DTM sim off the back of R3E and sites like VirtualR, RaceDepartment are always busy, maybe nobody wants to play on planet Raaaid anymore?

[Picchio]

I presume you're referring to colour reproduction?

 

Are these new displays particularly poor in this area?

 

Yes I am. And well, they shouldn't be. Last time I've checked I saw that their panels have 24 bits per pixel for color depth, while I couldn't find any documentation or impressions regarding color accuracy. But it is generally lamented about.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Picchio

[Revvin]

Damn, that sounds dire!

How are the poor race sim enthusiasts coping?

It's terrible, what with the yearly Codemasters F1 games, GSC 2013 and WRC 4 as well as the other games I mentioned and a thriving mod community creating content over a lot of those sims it's no wonder racing sim fans are so desperate they are throwing themselves off the tops of their sim rigs!

 

All joking aside I'm glad we still have developers like 777, Eagle Dynamics, RRG, Kunos Simulazoni, iRacing, ISI, Simbin etc who are still passionate about creating simulations for us to play. I don't think VR will bring a renaissance to flight sims though, maybe a temporary boost to PC gaming until the consoles catch up but it's just another way to deliver the visuals and a lot of gamers will continue down the path of least resistance and instant gratification playing the latest Call of Duty on a VR headset than suddenly having a desire to jump into a flight sim.

[Georgio]

Personally I think that when the consumer Rift hits a few things will happen. Firstly there will be a lot more people trying games of all flavours especially those that traditionally wouldn't be interested in say a console title. They'll be curious about this 'new' technology especially when family and friends all try it and are positive about the experience.

The next thing that will happen is that parents across the World will rejoice that finally they've got their widescreen TV's and living rooms back as teenagers retire to their bedrooms clutching console and rift units never to be seen again (An aside to this will be many American Pie situations with mums walking in on rift-blinded teens who are busy 'exploring' 3D porn... )

The plus of all this is people will naturally try all variations of 3D experiences from first person shooters to driving games to flight sims, though not necessarily combat flight but probably more sight-seeing like a helicopter ride through the Grand Canyon. 

[HagarTheHorrible]

I predict that air racing will become popular. With the Rifts 110 deg 3D view anything that contains speed and height is going to be a real blast because upto now conveying that has been a real problem.

[DD_bongodriver]

I can only hope and pray that a series of Star Wars games on the lines of X-wing and rogue squadron are remade, can you imagine that in a rift.........nerdvana!!!!!

 

The Death star trench run.........drooool.

Edited January 29, 2014 by DD_bongodriver

[Revvin]

I can only hope and pray that a series of Star Wars games on the lines of X-wing and rogue squadron are remade, can you imagine that in a rift.........nerdvana!!!!!

 

The Death star trench run.........drooool.

 

Maybe?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN0D8TU_TVE

 

Although it could end up like a War Thunder in the stars type of game now Disney has its paws on it, to quote a wise man - I have a bad feeling about this

Edited January 29, 2014 by Revvin

[FlatSpinMan]

That would be so awesome!!!!!!!!!!

It has me excited already - I loved the Xwing games!

[HagarTheHorrible]

I predict winter sports will also be big in VR, skeleton bob anyone ?

[Revvin]

[falstaff]

Ok, I admit it, I had a good chuckle at this....

[Charlo-VR]

I predict that air racing will become popular. With the Rifts 110 deg 3D view anything that contains speed and height is going to be a real blast because upto now conveying that has been a real problem.

I think you may be on to something about the feeling of height: "The Oculus Rift Put Me In Game of Thrones and It Made My Stomach Drop" at http://gizmodo.com/the-oculus-rift-put-me-in-game-of-thrones-and-it-made-m-1510809083

 

Charlo

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Rewin,

 

I logged in just so I could give you the upvote.

[Revvin]

Sorry I took this off topic, I should have not engaged in conversation with him. I'm really looking forward to the consumer version of Oculus Rift, its possibly one of my most anticipated pieces of hardware and the reason I have not gone out and bought a new TrackIR unit.

[DD_bongodriver]

Sorry I took this off topic

 

No apology, this was the single best response to raaaid ever and sums him up perfectly, I'm still laughing.

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

It is super-easy to click on something on-screen with the mouse using Oculus Rift. Much easier than using Trackir. Clicking on buttons and levers in the cockpit you see in OR is just as easy ss reaching out and using instruments in a real cockpit you are actually sitting in.

 

 

I use TrackIR and have tried clicking on switches in IL2 CoD and yes, it is a pain in the neck as things jump around.  As a result, it did not seem as realistic as just reaching out and flipping one.  I have a hotas so it didn't really matter.  I never thought about things being steadier in OR.  Interesting.  Of course i would still have to "find" my mouse!  Guess we need Leap Motion too!!

[JG27_Chivas]

I've followed the OR development closely since kickstarter, with hopes it might rekindle my interest in firing up combat flight sims again.   Currently I just fly a couple of missions after each patch, instead of flying for hours with m8's online.   Personally I think VR will be a huge factor in reinvigorating flight sims,  but its tempered by the amazement of how many of us are going pffft with this new hardware, and would rather use their monitor and Track IR.   Especially since this new hardware tricks our brain out of our computer chairs, and puts us in a cockpit with the feel of height and depth for an incredibly immersive experience.   There is no doubt the first OR prototypes had their problems, but thats all part of the development process, and it appears all the necessary factors are aligning to make the first really decent cheap VR consumer kit possible.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I've followed the OR development closely since kickstarter, with hopes it might rekindle my interest in firing up combat flight sims again.   Currently I just fly a couple of missions after each patch, instead of flying for hours with m8's online.   Personally I think VR will be a huge factor in reinvigorating flight sims,  but its tempered by the amazement of how many of us are going pffft with this new hardware, and would rather use their monitor and Track IR.   Especially since this new hardware tricks our brain out of our computer chairs, and puts us in a cockpit with the feel of height and depth for an incredibly immersive experience.   There is no doubt the first OR prototypes had their problems, but thats all part of the development process, and it appears all the necessary factors are aligning to make the first really decent cheap VR consumer kit possible.

That sounds horribly like me. Console yourself though, lots of people griped about TrackIR, I can't imagine many would even consider playing flight sims now without.

[Revvin]

That sounds horribly like me. Console yourself though, lots of people griped about TrackIR, I can't imagine many would even consider playing flight sims now without.

I remember some of the arguments about TrackIR - that it gave players an unfair advantage, that it was a 'cheat' and that those who used a hat switch were somehow more skillfull

[FuriousMeow]

OR might be neat and cool, but relying on it to "reinvigorate" interest or thinking it will attract others to this genre is misguided.

 

It's just another peripheral, but it won't be some miracle or anything else - especially at it's price tag.

[DD_bongodriver]

OR might be neat and cool, but relying on it to "reinvigorate" interest or thinking it will attract others to this genre is misguided.

 

It's just another peripheral, but it won't be some miracle or anything else - especially at it's price tag.

 

 

I vote for furious to reinvigorate our genre, his chipper enthusiasm is sure to be infectious.

[FuriousMeow]

Your adept ability to denigrate anyone who has a differing opinion will be sure to attract just as many.

[DD_bongodriver]

Your adept ability to denigrate anyone who has a differing opinion will be sure to attract just as many.

 

Flattery will get you nowhere.

[FuriousMeow]

Clearly Chivas stated he was relying on the OR, he stated his hope in reinvigorating his interest in flight sims. He's also stated elsewhere that he thinks the OR will bring more interest to flight sims. I say, maybe a couple - but not many. Many won't pay for TrackIr that PLAY flight sims, that's half the price of OR. Many who have trackIr for other titles don't play flight sims - DayZ brought an influx of ArmAII purchases and coincidentally TrackIr purchases. I know where many of those who purhased DayZ and TiR went if they thought to try flight "sims" and it's less of a sim.

 

The one thing to bring a HUGE influx in players wasn't a sim what-so-ever, and most (90%ish) were playing with mice and keyboards using mouseaim. Everyone here knows what I'm talking about. Don't kid yourself that an expensive VR unit will bring in a lot of players. The cheaper version brought few. The biggest thing to bring players was a simple game with leveling up that had extremely easy controls and it was free. And here in CloD, BoS, RoF, there was a trickle of players from that title to these. A literal trickle.

Edited January 29, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[Revvin]

The Wii turned people, that had never previously done so, on to the idea of playing video games.

The Wii got people into playing video games because it removed the barrier of learning how to use a joypad and the motions required were simplistic, you just had to swish the controller in a very generic fashion, all of a sudden even your grandmother could play video game tennis with ease, they significantly lowered the learning curve so people picked up the controller and swished about. Even with Oculus Rift you still require a joystick so that's additional expenditure, learning how to set it up and that's before you even tackle the steep learning curve of a flight sim like IL-2.

[FuriousMeow]

The Wii changed it because of what Revvin said, it introduced nothing revolutionary. It's like Apple, it made things more accessible (ipods primary, the rest of the crap they make is overpriced garbage) - but unlike Apple, it was at a realistic price point.

 

The Wii is actually terrible in terms of gaming, but it's great in terms of communal gaming because of it's ease of accessibility.

 

But that's the Wii, and this is about the OR. It stands to be different, but not revolutionary. This isn't the first VR device, it's just happened to come into play at a time when the technology can support it best. But at $300, it is still a dice roll. Most won't pay for sweet graphics if the video card costs $300 or more. You'll find that most gamers have sub $300 graphics cards and sub $200 CPUs.

 

I don't see a $300 VR unit taking precedence over the actual hardware that could drive it.

 

I look forward to it, and the funding behind it says there's enough there to support it - but how far we'll find out after it's release.

Edited January 29, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[BraveSirRobin]

They don't appear to have misunderstood you at all.  They just explained why OR is not likely to change the gaming landscape in the same manner as the Wii.  It very well might change it, but not for the same reasons.

[JG27_Chivas]

Personally I think the OR provides ten times the immersion of "any" hardware including the Wii, Track IR, etc we've seen 25 years.  We have never seen this kind of reaction from people trying new hardware.   People are blown away, developers are blown away, investors are blown away.   There is a reason that OR isn't hurting for any R&D funding, and drawn some of the best minds in the industry into their fold. 

 

Its certainly not expensive.  Its cheaper than the high resolution 3D monitor, and TrackIR combination it replaces.   People will be falling all over themselves to get a hold of this kit.   The sim community will be only a small part of that demand.   Those that buy the OR for any initial reason will wonder what it would be like to fly an airplane, and actually feel a sense of flying with no risk, and even fly it with a game pad.   Then they are either hooked or not hooked, but the OR will put a huge amount of fish in the pond to vastly increase the chances of more people  getting hooked into the genre. 

[Bearcat]

I think the best thing that will lead to a flight sim renaissance will be high quality highly scalable flight sims...

[LLv44_Mprhead]

I think the best thing that will lead to a flight sim renaissance will be high quality highly scalable flight sims...

 

...That don't require high end gaming pc to run. BoS seems to be on the right track here, at the moment it seems that you can actually play with computer that is closer to minimum system requirements.

[Quax]

I am not yet convinced this generation of VR will take the market already. It is still not assured, that they will resolve the motion sickness issue. I guess they made progress. But enough ? I don´t know. Image quality and the weight and proportions are the other issues, that might not convince everybody yet.

In a combat flight sim these are more important matters, than in other games. We have to turn our heads faster and more often than others.

Perhaps it will need another generation. But then I will surely need my silk scarf. 

[DD_bongodriver]

their kickstarter was massively supported and made more than double the asking, they couldn't keep up with demand for the developer kit, they have already taken a market and all they have to do now is produce the consumer version, it's almost becoming a case of the rift deciding the future of the gaming industry because everyone with a rift (that is going to be a huge number) will be demanding games to be compatible, thankfully 1CGS have had the foresight to see this.

[unreasonable]

I am curious to see how it will deal with the necessity to take actions within a game aside from just looking around, important though this may be.

 

 In a flight sim we have to manipulate flight controls and many of us can do that without looking at where our hands are placed, but only after a lot of practice.  Some actions that have in cockpit switches may be do-able with mouse and clickable areas,  but if I want to order my flight to change formation I have to look at the keyboard: impossible to do all the key presses without looking.  Same in an action/RPG type game of the Skyrim type where pressing a certain hotkey for a healing potion within fractions of a second can mean life or death.  If mouse clickable areas are the solution then the FOV will be cluttered with immersion killing icons (like opening the options menu in RoF) and anyway is much too slow.

 

Personally I think the reason why so few people play flight sims is nothing to do with the viewing technology it is just because they are not particularly interested in aeroplanes.  Now if 777 were to do a good dragon add-on for RoF, they would all become millionaires, OR or no OR.

[JG27_Chivas]

I am curious to see how it will deal with the necessity to take actions within a game aside from just looking around, important though this may be.

 

 In a flight sim we have to manipulate flight controls and many of us can do that without looking at where our hands are placed, but only after a lot of practice.  Some actions that have in cockpit switches may be do-able with mouse and clickable areas,  but if I want to order my flight to change formation I have to look at the keyboard: impossible to do all the key presses without looking.  Same in an action/RPG type game of the Skyrim type where pressing a certain hotkey for a healing potion within fractions of a second can mean life or death.  If mouse clickable areas are the solution then the FOV will be cluttered with immersion killing icons (like opening the options menu in RoF) and anyway is much too slow.

 

Personally I think the reason why so few people play flight sims is nothing to do with the viewing technology it is just because they are not particularly interested in aeroplanes.  Now if 777 were to do a good dragon add-on for RoF, they would all become millionaires, OR or no OR.

 

 

Voice Activation software is the perfect fit for communicating with your squadron, tower ext.

[unreasonable]

I used VAC some years ago when I was playing a lot of IL2 campaigns. Great idea in theory, very questionable value in practice at least then, even after many, many hours of practice.

 

Voice recognition was just not good enough to give the very high correlation between what you thought you said and what the PC "hears". Cough and the gear drops, that sort of thing.

 

Using it only for commands where you would actually use your voice (as you point out) was the most "immersive" use for VAC, but even on that I had a lot of difficulty getting the PC to recognize reliably my commands. The only one I found really useful was the "HELP" command!

 

I was just wondering about this the other day: is VAC still around, has recognition improved, how will BoS support it? Perhaps needs a new thread.

[JG27_Chivas]

I also thought that voice recognition would be iffy, but the voice recognition software I used years ago flying IL-2 campaigns was very accurate.  Although I did avoid using it for critical things that could ruin a flight with the wrong action at the wrong time.  I don't remember the software I used, but might still have it on one of my systems hard drive boot ups.  I'm fairly sure this type of software doesn't require support from the sim.   edit....found the site, I believe it has a free trial period, and cost 15 bucks or so to purchase.   http://dwvac.com/index.html

Edited January 31, 2014 by JG27_Chivas

[Panzerlang]

I don't think the OR will create an interest in combat flight sims, where none existed before, but it may very well lead to an interest in sight-seeing flight simming. And from that ("I'm bored flying only to look at stuff") it may progress to combat.

 

The only obstacle I can see in general terms is a lack of resolution, such as CloD suffers currently (blocky planes at range, even with a high-res monitor).

[SKG51_robtek]

I don't think the OR will create an interest in combat flight sims, where none existed before, but it may very well lead to an interest in sight-seeing flight simming. And from that ("I'm bored flying only to look at stuff") it may progress to combat.

 

The only obstacle I can see in general terms is a lack of resolution, such as CloD suffers currently (blocky planes at range, even with a high-res monitor).

You mean at a distance where you see next to nothing in BoS, right?

 

Sorry, i really don't like those snide remarks, thats why i posted this example.

Edited January 31, 2014 by robtek

[Panzerlang]

I have no idea why you consider that a 'snide' remark. I am currently enjoying the hell out of CloD but it is a simple fact that it doesn't do anti-aliasing and planes no more than about a couple of kilometers away are blocky.