Flight sim renaissance

[HagarTheHorrible]

Do you think that VR will lead to a renaissance in flight sims ?

 

It certainly seems that this emerging technology suits fixed perspective games, basically anything that involves sitting down, hopefully this will leed to a revival in flight sims on computers. One of the things that has played against flight sims in the past is there high demand on hardware and sheer complexity. VR might reverse this and make flight sims more attractive to developers, not because they have suddenly become easier to develop, but because other genres have become far more complex with all the extra attention to detail that is required to produce them properly.

[JG4_Sputnik]

I predict a renaissance of fixed perspective games since I first heared from the Oculus Rift. Not even flight sims, but also Mech games and driving games (although driving games always have been kind of big in the gaming industry).

 

But 'our' genre definitely will benefit in the future thanks to VR - i can imagine that VR will draw people to the sim genre who are just interested to 'sit in the cockpit' of a real ww2 plane as they would in a museum or on an airshow. And then they probably will stick to the game and maybe trying multiplayer and so on. These might be people who not nescensarily would play som games in first place, but thanks to VR they really could make our comunity grow.

[Scarecrow]

I agree about the need to see your peripherals, I wouldn't play this sim in VR but a racing sim would be cool. Thinking about it though the console industry will benefit from the Rift as you don't need to see your controller.

 

I don't think flight sims need a renaissance, I think they're doing fine. War Thunders success indicates the general public still find the genre exciting so scalability is really the best way for more serious sims to make themselves more appealing to the masses.

[steppenwolf]

I think for a renaissance of the flight sim we would need a rebirth of the flight sim model. Although I wouldn't play without a joystick and TrackIR today, more hardware(VR or not) isn't anywhere as appealing as never before seen game content (e.g., real weather, living worlds, cockpit particle effects, POV physics, etc).   

[Freycinet]

The answer to the input issue is a

 

1) clickpit

2) combined with hotas ("hands-on-throttle-and-stick" if anyone has forgotten)

3) + the mouse.

 

It is super-easy to click on something on-screen with the mouse using Oculus Rift. Much easier than using Trackir. Clicking on buttons and levers in the cockpit you see in OR is just as easy ss reaching out and using instruments in a real cockpit you are actually sitting in.

 

So, frequently used controls on the hotas, the rest in the clickpit.

 

- The developers decided not to go the clickpit way, but I think they will have to change their approach.

Edited January 25, 2014 by Freycinet

[DD_bongodriver]

- The developers decided not to go the clickpit way, but I think they will have to change their approach.

 

QFT!

 

cue the click pit police in 5.....4.......3.....2.....1

Edited January 25, 2014 by DD_bongodriver

[siipperi]

Absolutely no.

Did hotas warthog helped it, no.

It's all about how good and how easily you can learn the game if bos can do both of these things we can see early 2000 boom in ww2 flight simming. Reason is always the content not the hardware. Who would use ipad if there would be no apps for it? Nobody. Same thing here.

 

Edit. And clickpits are the future for study sims but those aren't really casual fan magnets. Bos is in the middle path.

Edited January 25, 2014 by siipperi

[DD_bongodriver]

it's not even a 'study sim' issue, it's simply the most convenient way in a VR enviroment to operate systems around the cockpit no matter what level of detail they are modelled to.

[Devilsbirth]

War Thunders success indicates the general public still find the genre exciting so scalability is really the best way for more serious sims to make themselves more appealing to the masses.

Fly sims are hard, thats why not many people play it. War Thunder is a success because it is not flight sim, but simple flying game, it is easy, with mouse aim everyone can shoot planes, pretending he's flying a plane. Real sims will never be as successfull, because there player need a lot of time to learn, and people are lazy by nature No device will change it.

[Skoshi_Tiger]

I would hope there was less woe and suffering

 

I was hoping for a bit more Nordic influence like in Valhalla where we get to fight all day and at night we feast and start off again the same tomorrow!

Edited January 25, 2014 by Skoshi_Tiger

[Rama]

Real sims will never be as successfull, because there player need a lot of time to learn, and people are lazy by nature No device will change it.

Agree 100%. The players that can go over the "natural lazyness" are those with a very strong interest in flying AND historic air battles. this strong interest doesn't necessarilly stay permanent.

I have the impression that the "player reservoir" for this kind of game is somewhat stable... shrinking continuously a little bit while the real events fade away in the past.

[Feathered_IV]

Do you think that VR will lead to a renaissance in flight sims ?

 

 

Maybe.  I'm not wearing tights though

[von_Tom]

 

I can't see developers deciding to make a flying game just because there is an expensive peripheral available that most of the potential client base doesn't have.

 

They may very well use resources to ensure it is catered for but at the moment that just means splitting the image to get 3D and getting 6DOF working properly.

 

It's a nice peripheral but it won't lead to a fixed perspective renaissance of any kind.

 

Hood

[BeastyBaiter]

VR won't have any effect on future economics of it. These same devices can be used in driving games and FPS's with similar effect. If anything they will be a hindrance to complicated games like CFS's due to the inability to see the keyboard. BoS is basically the absolute limit of what can be done comfortably with VR in it's current form. We have just barely enough buttons, sliders and rotories on our current HOTAS's to avoid using the keyboard completely. Something like DCS or even CloD are basically a no go for VR. We just don't have enough buttons that we can press blindly. And of course, aiming with your head at a switch in the cockpit is both slow and frustrating. So clickable cockpits may reduce the problem, but are not an ideal solution.

 

What I do see happening in the next 5-10 years is a shift away from monitors and TV sets to VR headsets as the primary gaming viewing device. The price of them is only a little higher than a traditional PC monitor and substantially lower than that of something like a PS4. So I think these devices will become very common across gaming in general. The first genuinely mass produced one will likely be for the initial release of the PS5 but us PC users will get them a bit earlier and I'm sure a PS4 version will come along in the next few years as well.

[Devilsbirth]

Something like DCS or even CloD are basically a no go for VR. 

Additional device, tracking at least one hand would be required, and damn, this would be awesome!

[MolotoK]

Aren't we already seeing a renaissance in flight sims unrelated to VR?

 

WarThunder isn't a sim, but it's in the top20 games on steam.

DCS is far more popular than a game of that complexity should be.

Rise of Flight is on steam and still has a very active online community.

The fact that Wings over Flanders Fields even exists is astounding. (That's two ww1 flight sims in the market at the same time. 6-10 years ago you were lucky to find more than 5 people online in Richthofen's Skies)

IL2 is getting a sequel despite the failure of CLOD.

DCS getting more addons, including the WW2 one.

 

I can see VR driving more WarThunder pilots towards real sims, but the average VR goggle buyer isn't going to get into flight sims just because he has VR goggles.

[TheBlackPenguin]

Renaissance in Space 'Sims' will also have an effect, even in indirectly through more joysticks sales, Star Citizen raises $37 million (and rising) is not small change.

 

Interesting poll on joysticks:

 

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13493-Star-Citizen-Poll-What-s-Your-Joystick

 

The majority seem to be using joystick/HOTAS setups.

[TheBlackPenguin]

Aren't we already seeing a renaissance in flight sims unrelated to VR?

 

The fact that Wings over Flanders Fields even exists is astounding. (That's two ww1 flight sims in the market at the same time. 6-10 years ago you were lucky to find more than 5 people online in Richthofen's Skies)

 

I believe WOFF is doing well because the single player campaign is just so advanced and the world feels alive (terrain looks good, clouds have a nice variation until you get close), the AI is decent, although personally overall I am liking ROF more with PWCG. Honestly, this is another thing, I think a lot of people have a tendency to favour RPG elements as it adds to 'immersion', seriously I would love to know more about BOS's campaign and I hope its more akin to WOFF/PWCG than ROF's current Beta (I don't think its bad, just needs more depth). I don't think ROF is too far behind and spitefully perhaps I am hoping for

 

Not pertaining to any particular simulation, but going along the lines of RPG elements I would love to be able to create an avatar in-game, it doesn't have to be deep and complex, but just enough to personalize it beyond the same even if it just choosing eye/hair colour and perhaps height, does not necessarily need much more as pilots will look quite identical in flight kit, especially in the cockpit, although beyond the core game this isn't high priority .

[JG27_Chivas]

There is no doubt that VR will help revive flight sims with its huge immersion factor, travel, and feel of flight with no risk.   It will definitely draw far more people into relatively easy flight sims where all thats required is a game pad, and a percentage of those will venture into more complex combat flight sims.   Sit down VR and flight sims are a match made in heaven.

 

I'm not a fan of clickable cockpits but it will certainly help those without a decent Hotas.  The option of having clickable cockpits is always a good thing.

 

A decent Hotas, Mouse, and Voice Activation software would have more than enough inputs for most people.  I don't recall ever seeing a keyboard installation in a WW2 fighter aircraft. 

 

I believe people are overreacting to the keyboard issue.  The immersion factor for combat flight sim enthusiasts that try VR will provide more than enough incentive for them to upgrade their Hotas or learn to use their keyboard without having to look, which isn't that dificult.   That said the OR is looking for ways to alleviate the problem for the keyboard challenged.  Personally I think the Voice Activated software would cure many of the problems for offline users, but might create more problems when it picks up an inopportune phrase while on teamspeak.    Got him, he BAILed OUT, oh shyte!

[HagarTheHorrible]

The reason I think flight sims will get a boost from VR, and it doesn't matter if they are more at the fun end or the sim end, is because I think, just like at an IMAX, it will be a real ride.  Flight sims will go from a quite sterile environment to a real heart pumping ride, if nothing else the sense of speed and height that all encompassing 3D will provide will be epic, IMAX on steroids.  There have been many false horizons, but if this comes off then I think it could transform our hobbie and while it might take a little time to convince some doubters and like TrackIR be imperfect in it's first implementation, if it provides a compelling enough experience then limitations or problems will melt away as inventive people find solutions and practical ways around obstacles.

 

It will be interesting to see how convincing the feeling of motion will be, I'd always craved a moving platform and prayed that someone would produce one that was good and affordable but if the way people sway around in IMAX theatres is anything to go by then maybe moving platforms to a certain extent have become superfluous. It might also give us a much more realistic implementation of the gun sight.  If our head is free to move about in virtual space and we sway about because of what we think is happening to our bodies then it might take some concentration to look and shoot through the sight properly just as in real life.

[Freycinet]

Something like DCS or even CloD are basically a no go for VR. We just don't have enough buttons that we can press blindly. And of course, aiming with your head at a switch in the cockpit is both slow and frustrating.

 

I am sorry, but you are forgetting the mouse, which is a perfect clicking tool together with the Oculus Rift (and yes, I have an OR, and am using the mouse all the time).

 

When you look around in your virtual 3D world, the mouse pointer (usually a little cross) is rock steady hovering over the place where you last left it. No matter how much you move your head it just stays in place. When you then grab your mouse you can effortlessly move it very precisely to the exact place you want. Independent of the head movement, just your hand moving the mouse. It is as easy as sitting in a real cockpit and stretching your hand out to flip a switch.

 

So, with your functional clickpit + your mouse + your hotas you have absolutely all the options you need to operate the most complicated sim imaginable. Just as in a real cockpit you're not fiddling with a keyboard any longer. Just stick, mouse and all the levers and switches in the cockpit.

[Charlo-VRde]

I am sorry, but you are forgetting the mouse, which is a perfect clicking tool together with the Oculus Rift (and yes, I have an OR, and am using the mouse all the time).

 

When you look around in your virtual 3D world, the mouse pointer (usually a little cross) is rock steady hovering over the place where you last left it. No matter how much you move your head it just stays in place. When you then grab your mouse you can effortlessly move it very precisely to the exact place you want. Independent of the head movement, just your hand moving the mouse. It is as easy as sitting in a real cockpit and stretching your hand out to flip a switch.

 

So, with your functional clickpit + your mouse + your hotas you have absolutely all the options you need to operate the most complicated sim imaginable. Just as in a real cockpit you're not fiddling with a keyboard any longer. Just stick, mouse and all the levers and switches in the cockpit.

Now I see the value of a clickable cockpit and want one. Thanks for sharing your practical experience actually using the OR.

 

Charlo

[BeastyBaiter]

That's why I said a clickable cockpit is a less than ideal solution. Yes it works (just like with TIR which I have) but clicking things with a mouse is far more awkward than simply pressing "g" on the keyboard. Pressing a button on the keyboard is far more realistic than tinkering with a mouse to do the same thing on a simulated panel. And with a VR headset, you can't see your keyboard. You can't see the mouse either of course but it's easy enough to find without looking. In any case, I still see FPS's and driving games as the real force behind VR. I don't think any games will gain players because of them but I do think they will become very common much like TIR is in CFS's. Unlike TIR, I see it being a common device across all serious games. Angry Birds won't have it, but the next non-mmo installment of the Elder Scrolls probably will.

[DD_bongodriver]

That's why I'd have things like gear mapped to HOTAS, leave the mouse clicking for run of the mill small things like minor systems, most decent HOTAS have enough assignments to take care of the most desired functions anyway.

[siipperi]

That's why I'd have things like gear mapped to HOTAS, leave the mouse clicking for run of the mill small things like minor systems, most decent HOTAS have enough assignments to take care of the most desired functions anyway.

 

There is certain competitor where "minor" systems actually act major part of the sim. handling CDU can be a really pain with mouse, haven't tested OR so no first hand experience, but I'm using my Ipad as a CDU which is perfect for typing things + Weapon profiles. Of course it works in ww2 scheme. 

[DD_bongodriver]

it could be so simple, make the mouse cursor 'sticky' solving accuracy problems, most mice have at least 3 clicks on them, LMB MMB RMB, so easily set up for positional switches, most mice also have a wheel, perfect for a rotary selector, one device so perfectly adapted to operate the functions of all the swithches in a cockpit.

[II./JG27_Rich]

It's probably been said somewhere but I think War Thunder is great in one way..as a stepping stone for new people who want to get into WWII Combat Flight Sims. As they get better and better they are going to get bored and want a bigger challenge and they will be hearing about IL-2 all the time.

[Picchio]

I will leave aside the clickable cockpits and VR issue, as I think they don't count as significant factors here.

Maybe the essence of the matter is that flight simulators are flight simulators, and that, at least in general, the gaming consumer market doesn't certainly aim for games that involve much commitment at all, besides the commitment of the time spent on them of course. Immediacy, and the possibility to quickly move from one experience to another without having to re-learn everything seem now to be basic requirements.

That to me does not sound favourable for an approach to flight simulators, so no, I would not call it a Renaissance. But perhaps it's their relatively niche aspect too, that makes flight simulators matter more to those who craft them, and to those who play them.

Perhaps it's better that way.

I can personally say that I enjoy them so much more because of their rarity.

 

Also, are we discussing flight simulators in general, or combat flight simulators? Because then the issue is kind of different, I think.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Picchio

[Blooddawn1942]

+1

Thats what I always said. If only 5% of the Warthunder folks would evolve to more komplex sims, our numbers will noticeably increase!

 

Hell Yes! Our number will be Legion, hargh hargh!!

;-)

[Bearcat]

All the VR folks need to do is add some kind of input for an interface to a mouse like a glove & sensor of some kind. Some sort of procedure like say taping thumb and index is L click.. thumb and middle is center click , thumb and ring is R click.. Holding thumb and middle and moving hand is mouse wheel .. moving hand moves mouse when user assigned hotkey switch is selected.

[SR-F_Winger]

Do you think that VR will lead to a renaissance in flight sims ?

 

It certainly seems that this emerging technology suits fixed perspective games, basically anything that involves sitting down, hopefully this will leed to a revival in flight sims on computers. One of the things that has played against flight sims in the past is there high demand on hardware and sheer complexity. VR might reverse this and make flight sims more attractive to developers, not because they have suddenly become easier to develop, but because other genres have become far more complex with all the extra attention to detail that is required to produce them properly.

Absolutely no doubt. YES. In approximately a year from now every simmer (including car and every other kind of SIMmer) will wear a rift. Just like today every serious simmer uses a TIR.

The impact on immersion ist just too frikkin awesome (i had a DK myself). Believe me its jaw dropping.

[Blooddawn1942]

I would agree on that point.

I can't wait to try this device!

 

Hope it won't take an eternety until it will be available for the customer!

[76SQN-FatherTed]

The reason I think flight sims will get a boost from VR, and it doesn't matter if they are more at the fun end or the sim end, is because I think, just like at an IMAX, it will be a real ride.  Flight sims will go from a quite sterile environment to a real heart pumping ride, if nothing else the sense of speed and height that all encompassing 3D will provide will be epic, IMAX on steroids.  There have been many false horizons, but if this comes off then I think it could transform our hobbie and while it might take a little time to convince some doubters and like TrackIR be imperfect in it's first implementation, if it provides a compelling enough experience then limitations or problems will melt away as inventive people find solutions and practical ways around obstacles.

 

It will be interesting to see how convincing the feeling of motion will be, I'd always craved a moving platform and prayed that someone would produce one that was good and affordable but if the way people sway around in IMAX theatres is anything to go by then maybe moving platforms to a certain extent have become superfluous. It might also give us a much more realistic implementation of the gun sight.  If our head is free to move about in virtual space and we sway about because of what we think is happening to our bodies then it might take some concentration to look and shoot through the sight properly just as in real life.

You mention IMAX a lot here.  I think I've been once or twice, but it wouldn't be my choice for a regulation visit to the flicks.  Like IMAX vs normal cinema, might people find the OR just a bit over-powering?  With new tech, we always assume that more "bandwidth" will be better, but it's not always the case.  Despite videophones being readily available, most people would rather text.

 

I know that people who've tried the OR rhapsodize about it, but I'm guessing most have only had a brief go?

[Picchio]

Speaking of VR sets, I'm not sure if the comparison holds up, but the way I see it, I wouldn't ever use OR or any derivative for the same reason why I don't take a photograph looking at my camera's lcd screen, but through the reflex sight. I understand the immersion factor, but I'm a little radical about image quality, when I have the choice.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Picchio

[Picchio]

For ever is a long time!

 

I think it won't be long before the image quality is such that your concerns will be mitigated.

 

Then all you will have to consider is whether or not you want the extra immersion.

 

Mmm, you got me right there.

It's just that for such a small device, the compromise must be there somehow if market costs are to be contained. I know very little about the actual capabilities of such small screen devices, for now, and I remain skeptic. But hopeful too.

Still, these innovations alone don't mean Renaissance to me. But more quality to our experiences, yes.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Picchio

[Picchio]

I see your point, but I was mainly referring to gamut. We can agree that resolution isn't an issue, but it's just not all that there's to it when we talk about image quality.

[DD_bongodriver]

when an image is nearly full FOV in 3d it has quality

[HagarTheHorrible]

If the experience is compelling enough, then everything else is fluff.  If the OR doesn't deliver a game changing experience then it will wither and die because few will invest time and money to jump the hurdles. If the OR provides an extra dimension to gaming, much like touch screens add to phones and tablets, then even if some things seem like a backward step they will be accepted as just a minor distraction to the overall leap forward. Touch screen tablets are possibly a good analogy, they can't compete with desktops or laptops for performance BUT what they do provide and their accessibility has changed the personal computer market from top to bottom in very short order and I sure as hell don't hear any cries about "Oh it's not as good as my PC, therefore it's rubbish".

 

Again I think flight sims will do well in VR because making other games will become increasingly complex because of the added attention to detail required, while correspondingly flight sims will become relatively easy to produce because very little extra needs to be added over and above what is already done.

[56RAF_phoenix56]

Sorry Skoshi_Tiger, but that painting is about plague, not war. There's a better version http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Josse_Lieferinxe_-_Saint_Sebastian_Interceding_for_the_Plague_Stricken_-_Walters_371995.jpg by the way.

 

56RAF_phoenix

[JG27_Chivas]

There is no doubt the pixel size/resolution will be one of the major factors in the success of the VR.  Some people were so quickly immersed in the game they hardly noticed the poor resolution of the first prototype, others no so much.   The next HD prototype made some improvements in that regard, and now the latest Crystal Cove prototype is even better.  We will probably see better display features in prototypes at Gamescon, and E3.  I have little doubt that the consumer version will satisfy the needs of most people, and be an unprecedented success, with even better experiences with each future consumer version.  Not to mention all the competing products that will want to take a slice of the huge potential market far beyond gaming.