Oculus Rift headtracker detailed!

[Sim]

I was always skeptical of TrackIR selling a stone age (10+ years old infrared) headtracking solution.. not that there was really a choice for alternatives. But finally.. it seems like the Oculus Rift is moving forward with the modern gyroscope/accelerometer combo. Just received a newsletter from Oculus Rift with new details on the built-in headtracker:

 

http://us5.campaign-archive2.com/?u=88dbd06829e35d5cbf84bbc2e&id=1249ac5d13&e=ee158a6236

 

The headtracker is made of:

- gyroscope

- accelerometer

- magnetometer (which probably means you never need something like that TrackIR "reset" key again!)

 

And if my math is any good:

 

Oculus Rift tracking speed: 2 ms

TrackIR 5 tracking speed: (1 / 120fps) * 1000 = 8.33 ms

 

Hint: less is better

[AndyJWest]

Yawn. Yet another thread about a device that isn't on sale, needs specialist graphics code to work, has a lousy resolution, won't work for anyone who wears glasses and  may well be outsold by similar devices currently being developed by larger corporations.

 

P.S. Regarding "stone age (10+ years old infrared) headtracking solutions", see the Forte VFX-1: 

http://museum.bounce-gaming.net/vfx1.html 

Similar technology, 1994...

Edited January 4, 2013 by AndyJWest

[Sim]

needs specialist graphics code to work

 

Specialist graphics? You mean API integration? And which device does not need that?

 

 

has a lousy resolution

 

The screen is not yet finalized for consumer version and you haven't even tried the dev kit yet. So how come you have already decided the screen resolution sucks? Did you compare it to your desktop monitor?

 

 

won't work for anyone who wears glasses

 

Is that an issue? What about lenses?

 

 

and  may well be outsold by similar devices currently being developed by larger corporations.

 

 

Any examples? More importantly, any examples with built-in headtracker?

[AndyJWest]

A simple question: do you have any connection with Oculus? Or are you providing advertising copy for free?

[Sim]

No, I am not connected to Oculus in any way, I am just excited for this new device. I thought I can discuss Rift in this hardware forum section. Unless of course, you really think this is against the forum rules.

[wiseblood]

Have you calculated how many times Trackir5 updates per frame for a game displayed at 60fps? updating 8 times between a single frame being drawn sure sounds better than updating twice between a single frame being drawn. Sounds like a winner to me. Fund it!

 

I know you are very excited, and that's great. However, if you read/watch some of the interviews with Carmack about this project, you will find the sensor latency is practically of no concern as compared to the other latency hurdles the project has faced so far. The displays and display i/o themselves present a much bigger problem. It sort of comes across like you've got the tail wagging the dog here.

Edited January 4, 2013 by wiseblood

[Sim]

Have you calculated how many times Trackir5 updates per frame for a game displayed at 60fps? updating 8 times between a single frame being drawn sure sounds better than updating twice between a single frame being drawn. Sounds like a winner to me. Fund it!

 

I get your point I personally never had any issues with TrackIR lagging in motion tracking, so 2ms on the Rift sounds almost overkill to me. But then again, maybe the motion tracking with a moving display (or 3D) does work somewhat differently? There was probably a reason why they decided to go for such precision.

 

 

I know you are very excited, and that's great. However, if you read/watch some of the interviews with Carmack about this project, you will find the sensor latency is practically of no concern as compared to the other latency hurdles the project has faced so far. The displays and display i/o themselves present a much bigger problem. It sort of comes across like you've got the tail wagging the dog here.

 

That was Carmack and the early prototypes. They have already replaced the 5.6'' screen used in prototypes with the new 7'' display which is better in every way possible (see http://www.oculusvr.com/blog/details-on-new-display-for-developer-kits/). And this is only for the developer kits, so the final consumer display is not yet finalized.

[AndyJWest]

I notice that they don't give a resolution for the new display panel. Anyway, "the final consumer display is not yet finalized" - or to put it another way, we've no way of knowing what the resolution will be - though as wiseblood hints at, if they manage to find a panel of decent enough resolution to work over the wide-angle display, there are real problems actually providing the graphical data at the rate necessary - see http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/when-it-comes-to-resolution-its-all-relative/

[wiseblood]

I get your point I personally never had any issues with TrackIR lagging in motion tracking, so 2ms on the Rift sounds almost overkill to me. But then again, maybe the motion tracking with a moving display (or 3D) does work somewhat differently? There was probably a reason why they decided to go for such precision.

I think it's just that nobody really makes anything much slower that you would use for this purpose.

 

 

That was Carmack and the early prototypes. They have already replaced the 5.6'' screen used in prototypes with the new 7'' display which is better in every way possible (see http://www.oculusvr.com/blog/details-on-new-display-for-developer-kits/). And this is only for the developer kits, so the final consumer display is not yet finalized.

I don't know how long you've been following the project - but the main stumbling block as far as Carmack is concerned is the perverse incentives at work in making displays, where you can shoot information across a continent an order of magnitude faster than you can get it to travel two feet from the gpu to the display. I am pretty sure that is still the factor they're fighting the most to get latency down (noticably there don't seem to be any figures at all for the new displays? ). But yeah the stuff they mention is interesting in itself and goes to this weird space displays compete in - like their talk about colour switching times. But wait, my monitor says it does that in 2ms, doesn't it? Ye-es... but only by the weird metric applicable to just about nothing at all that all of them decided they would use. I am excited for the project mainly because I think Carmack is one guy who could actually get shit changed in that part of the industry.

 

[JG27_Chivas]

I was always skeptical of TrackIR selling a stone age (10+ years old infrared) headtracking solution.. not that there was really a choice for alternatives. But finally.. it seems like the Oculus Rift is moving forward with the modern gyroscope/accelerometer combo. Just received a newsletter from Oculus Rift with new details on the built-in headtracker:

 

http://us5.campaign-archive2.com/?u=88dbd06829e35d5cbf84bbc2e&id=1249ac5d13&e=ee158a6236

 

The headtracker is made of:

- gyroscope

- accelerometer

- magnetometer (which probably means you never need something like that TrackIR "reset" key again!)

 

And if my math is any good:

 

Oculus Rift tracking speed: 2 ms

TrackIR 5 tracking speed: (1 / 120fps) * 1000 = 8.33 ms

 

Hint: less is better

 

Thanks for the update, Sim.  This is the type of product that could and probably will eventually revolutionize gaming.

 

  I've been looking for a decent monitor for flight simming for sometime, but there is nothing on the market, or anything new coming to the market that interests me.   The Occulus Rift might just fit the bill.   Since the developer is a gamer, he should have a very good idea what the end product will require to be of any interest to gamers.  The question is, will he be able to deliver.  That said, are world would be very different, if it were filled with people that say it can't be done, and no one bothered to try.

[AA_Engadin]

New video:

 

 

No way wifey catches me moving around the room in the dark with the helmet on and the joystick in my hand, like the guy in the video. :o Heart attack for granted.

 

OTOH, such a deep inmersion feeling! JASON-I-WANT-IT-IN-BoS! Pleeeease! 

 

AA_Engadin.

Edited February 6, 2013 by AA_Engadin

[Jason_Williams]

See my comments here about Occulus I posted at SimHQ a few days ago.

 

"I walked into their office a couple weeks ago. Got the ole' everyone is unavailable to talk treatment by the receptionist so I didn't get to see a demo. Left my card and a few copies of ROF. So far no attempt to reach out to me, not that I really expected it. Honestly, they already seem to have the big shooter engine folks (Unreal and Crytek etc.) behind it already so I doubt they are going to beat down my door to talk to us simmers. I ordered a developer unit and will send to the team to check out.

What annoying to me is that you could already do all the tracking stuff with TrackIR years ago, but all of the major engine makers laughed when I tried to explain the concept of head tracking in FPS-style games to them. View control separate from the gun etc. Put some good goggles on the idea and they are into it. Back in the day these guys including Gabe Newell told me it was a cheat so they wouldn't support head tracking where you could peek around corners in their engines. Ohwell... I tried. 

What's evident by their office location and from what I saw they appear to have some money behind them."

 

About making a mod for HL2 with headtracking. We did that with TrackIR in 2005 when I worked at NaturalPoint and it worked just as good. I guess it's the goggles people are just excited about. I haven't seen it in person so I can't say if I am excited as some of you are. 

 

Jason

[LG1.Farber]

I already knock over my beer onto my keyboard enough I dont need any help... 

[AA_Engadin]

Hi Jason, thanks for your comment, I get your point and share it with you. And so grateful you tried to get to them.

 

Nevertheless, I must say I am a 'proud TIR3 [yes, 3 ] owner and (most important) user' and I guess my liking the OR thingie has everything to do with the, for me at least, somewhat weird movements my eyes are forced to do to follow the action at the display when I check my six. You know, move your head to the right and your eyes just the opposite way. A thousand miles away from a natural attitude, IMHO. On the other hand, I have got used to it and no trouble at all flying this way, but to be true I miss something like Occulus. The promise: to fly and fight turning your head and your eyes in a perfectly natural way.

 

I have spent all these years tracking everything related to VR and nobody (Sony among others) came up even close to where OR is right now. You give the clue these guys have only eyes for big money these days: FPSs as you say, not the simming world. And will keep it the same for the coming months. Well it's natural. R&D empties your pocket pretty quickly and they must be funds-thirsty.

 

But I guess - an extremely positive guess - once all the fuss in the FPS world is over, they'll turn their eyes to other market niches, were tasty bucks will yet wait to be collected. There is were we?

Edited February 7, 2013 by AA_Engadin

[Jason_Williams]

Engadin,

 

Thanks for the kind words. My larger point is that they have already won the battle, whereas NP and TrackIR only conquered one genre - flight-sim. OR doesn't really need the sim community, unless it completely flops with shooters. We make up less than 1% of gamers. I'm more sensitive to this stuff because I was in charge of TrackIR business development while I was at NP and I mainly left because I could not crack the shooter genre. It was really frustrating and I remember all these shooter devs and engine devs (including Gabe Newell when I showed him our mod for HL2 with head tracking)) laughing at me when I explained how cool TrackIR was and what it could do. They ALL told me it was a cheat and they would never take the time to implement special code to support a 3rd party device outside of a mouse and keyboard. Drives me nuts. What made them change their mind? The stupid screen? Weird.

 

And all this crap about latency. I defy anyone to show me noticeable latency with TrackIR.

 

If their API isn't too difficult and we can find the time to implement it we will, but just a shame more shooter devs never gave TrackIR a fair shake. Really hypocritical on their part.

 

Jason

[Krupi]

I have to agree, the only fps I know that uses track iris arma2

 

Good to hear that you are looking into this.

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

Engadin,

 

Thanks for the kind words. My larger point is that they have already won the battle, whereas NP and TrackIR only conquered one genre - flight-sim. OR doesn't really need the sim community, unless it completely flops with shooters. We make up less than 1% of gamers. I'm more sensitive to this stuff because I was in charge of TrackIR business development while I was at NP and I mainly left because I could not crack the shooter genre. It was really frustrating and I remember all these shooter devs and engine devs (including Gabe Newell when I showed him our mod for HL2 with head tracking)) laughing at me when I explained how cool TrackIR was and what it could do. They ALL told me it was a cheat and they would never take the time to implement special code to support a 3rd party device outside of a mouse and keyboard. Drives me nuts. What made them change their mind? The stupid screen? Weird.

 

And all this crap about latency. I defy anyone to show me noticeable latency with TrackIR.

 

If their API isn't too difficult and we can find the time to implement it we will, but just a shame more shooter devs never gave TrackIR a fair shake. Really hypocritical on their part.

 

Jason

+`1 I too wanted it implemented in BF3 and COD, but they didn't want to bother with putting that tech into there game. Would of sold more copy's I bet. But at-least it works for ARMA, Would love to see it in for Red Orchestra 3!

Edited February 8, 2013 by Mastiff

[JG27_Chivas]

There wasn't much money behind the Occulus Rift until Kickstarter raised around two and half millions dollars for the development.   That probably why they were able to rent, buy some decent office digs.   Whats so impressive about the Rift is you don't see any borders.  It appears that the vast majority of developers  and gamers who have been able to try the Rift are completely immersed in the gaming world as there is no other external visual input distraction, like we have all around us when gaming on a monitor or multiple monitors.  Users have found it disconcerting and confusing to hear other people in the background, not related to the world they're immersed in. 

 

Yes shooters etc dominate the market, but the Oculus developers have mentioned flight sims as a market, and are looking for input, from all game developers.   I think it would be a mistake for combat flight sim developers not to provide some input at this very crucial stage of the Oculus's development.  They may or may not heed that advice/input, but now is the time to do it, either way.

[Jason_Williams]

This sim developer was told to shoo. And trust me this is not all being done with Kickstarter money.

 

Jason

[Furio]

Perhaps I don???

[AA_Engadin]

Perhaps I don???

Edited February 17, 2013 by AA_Engadin

[Furio]

Oh, yes, thank you, Engadin! I already saw this clip and was aware of Leap. It???

[AA_Engadin]

Oh, yes, thank you, Engadin! I already saw this clip and was aware of Leap. It???

Edited February 17, 2013 by AA_Engadin

[Furio]

Brilliant!

As dreaming costs nothing, this is my dream.

I read about new generation of flexible screens, so I imagine a spherical one, with just enough space at the bottom for head and shoulders. On this monitor, you see the canopy, your plane???

[AA_Engadin]

It is so interesting that the spherical flexible screen solution you mention is just what the OR device is intended to substitute or replace!  ^_^  On the other hand, it will be so once resolution and dizziness are adjusted to acceptable levels in comparison with your nice proposal.

[AA_Engadin]

Well, one can't have it all. Why I say this? Because if we use the OR we'll be unable to use this other useful tool, tested flawlessly in Rise of Flight. If you have an iPad, for 5$ at Google Play you have a multifunction display for your crate's buttons and levers:

 

 

I guess if demand for Spit, 109, P-51 or your favourite warplane's panel is big enough, guys at Pilot Touch [ http://touchpilot.net/ ] will be open to provide you with them. I guess.

 

A review at SimHQ's:

 

http://www.simhq.com/_mobile/mobile_005a.html

 

AA_Engadin

 

 

[AA_Engadin]

Quite long and technical read from John Carmack himself about Latency Mitigation Strategies. An abstract:

 

 

 

 

Virtual reality (VR) is one of the most demanding human-in-the-loop applications from a latency standpoint.  The latency between the physical movement of a user???

[Skoshi_Tiger]

Some  occulus rift goodness in the planning!

 

http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/334495,battle-the-undead-with-an-oculus-rift-in-zombies-on-the-holodeck.aspx

 

Cheers!

[FlatSpinMan]

I hope you're all heading over their forum or facebook page to inform them of the great upcoming sim they should support. I did a couple of weeks ago but I encourage everyone to let them know that there is interest in this from our small sector of the market.

[JG27_Chivas]

This sim developer was told to shoo. And trust me this is not all being done with Kickstarter money.

 

Jason

 

 

I highly doubt you were told to shoo.  It may have just been bad timing, and a rude receptionist, as Lucky Palmer and his group were in China fine tuning the development kit release at the time of your visit.  I agree that this is being done with more than just Kickstarter monies, as I would imagine that most astute investors would see the vast potential of this new kit.  I'm hoping that when you receive your kit, you will also see the potential to revolutionize BOS/ROF, implement the features required,  if financially doable, and provide input to the Oculus Rift developers to make it even better.  You may not receive the same treatment as the other money generating title's, but that doesn't mean it won't be worth pursuing, even if the initial greeting was less than satisfactory.

[Sim]

Seems even Valve is on the boat for this:

 

http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/18/valve-team-fortress-2-oculus-rift/

Edited March 19, 2013 by Sim

[Bearcat]

It looks good.. but for me it would not work.. For me the idea of sitting ina room with this thing over my eyes.. just doesn't sit right.. TIR? No problems at all with it.. That leap thing is straight out of minority report ... but it does look good. There were people trashing their TV screens when the Wii came out.. I can imagine some poor sap tripping over a table and busting his head with the OR .. but it does look pretty cool.

[JG27_Chivas]

The current Oculus Rift is best suited for sims where you are sitting and just moving your head around, ala driving and flying games.   Not being able to see your joystick, throttle, etc, shouldn't be a problem as we very quickly learn to find all our inputs by feel.   It could be a problem if alot of your inputs are from the keyboard.  Personally most of my inputs are on my Hotas, and only use the keyboard for a messages, when not using TeamSpeak.  TrackIR  is one of the most immersive hardwares in flight sims, but the Rift has the potential to be ten times more immersive, with even more accurate head movement.

[Porsche]

The current Oculus Rift is best suited for sims where you are sitting and just moving your head around, ala driving and flying games.   Not being able to see your joystick, throttle, etc, shouldn't be a problem as we very quickly learn to find all our inputs by feel.   It could be a problem if alot of your inputs are from the keyboard.  Personally most of my inputs are on my Hotas, and only use the keyboard for a messages, when not using TeamSpeak.  TrackIR  is one of the most immersive hardwares in flight sims, but the Rift has the potential to be ten times more immersive, with even more accurate head movement.

+1 I could not have said it better!!

[LLv34_Untamo]

S!

 

As a RL pilot you are, truth is on your side definitely    . And here is were my imagination shots up.

First, BoS should integrate Leap Motion as to be able to detect a 'virtual finger' getting within the 'physical' range as to actuate a button or a lever. Next two gloves with a tiny feedback actuator on every finger's tip, activated by a small battery and a receptor on the wrist. The crossed information of both the Leap Motion and the sim tells which finger is 'virtually touching' any lever or button. Via bluetooth or any other similar mean, a signal is emitted to the receptor on the glove to activate the 'sense of touch' on the proper fingertip in the exact moment it gets close or within range to any virtual lever or button. And while you 'feel the touch' on your fingertip you can actuate on them. So the 'feeling' feedback will tell you when you are about to actuate something in the cockpit. Easy    .

 

Doable, isn't it?   And it would work on any sim (car racing, airplanes, ...) once Leap Motion or any other sensor of this sort, like Kinect, is supported by the sim to detect our fingers and hands. I would cheerfully accept a 50% of the patent. 

 

AA_Engadin

 

Have you heard about Wiimote whiteboard by any chance? .. I built myself an IR-led glove (with a microswitch on the tip of the index finger that activates the led). So everytime I clicked on a surface, my monitor in this instance, it would register a mouse click there. My goal was to use it with Cliffs of Dover's clickable cockpit, but alas, the game didn't use the same mouse coordinate system as windows desktop (so the mouse clicks just went to random places) .. Otherwise it would have been brilliant.

Edited August 19, 2013 by LLv34_Untamo