BOK: P-39L-1 seems very slow.

[OverTheEdge]

Hi,

 

I am new to IL2 (less than 2 hours, mostly spent setting up controls etc) and I have many help options enabled, such as engine management.

 

When fighting against the German fighter planes in the P-39L-1, they simply outrun me. There is nothing that I can do to catch up to these fighters to get within firing range. Of course (and I have not yet checked), specs may dictate that this is just a slower plane, but I just wanted to be sure that my using assists (as opposed to pitch, boost and other controls) does not hinder the planes performance.

 

Also, I purchased the standard edition, but I am considering the premium Spitfire plane if it does indeed perform (speed. payload,) better than the P-39L-1. Can anyone give a brief general comparison between the two?

 

Thanks for any advice, comments etc.

 

Edited July 24, 2018 by OverTheEdge

[JonRedcorn]

The p-39 isn't the fastest plane and it certainly isn't going to catch a 109 or a 190 in level flight or a climb, you gotta surprise them in a dive. Which is easier said than done playing single player.

[unreasonable]

Take a look at what we often call the Tech Specs page, which has performance details of each aircraft.  https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25993-aircraft-flight-and-technical-specifications-and-operational-details/  A lot to absorb, but you can get to know individual planes one at a time.

 

 

Using the engine helpers will not generally reduce performance, except by preventing you from running your engine too hard: ie you could go faster for a period without the helpers, but you risk damaging your engine unless you know exactly what you are doing.  You can just turn them off one at a time and see.

 

The Spitfire V  Premium in the Kuban is actually pretty slow, but it turns very well. If you are having trouble catching the Germans you could just change sides for a while! The German machines are easier to fly without aids as almost everything is automated.

 

There is a huge amount to absorb: not sure if you have much combat flight sim experience before, if not just take it slowly and do not expect instant success.

 

Good Luck!

[kissklas]

5 minutes ago, JonRedcorn said:

The p-39 isn't the fastest plane and it certainly isn't going to catch a 109 or a 190 in level flight or a climb, you gotta surprise them in a dive. Which is easier said than done playing single player.

Yup! It's not easy in MP either. The trick like Jon said is come in from above. It has none of the speed but all of the firepower. And it dives at well over 800kph.

[Thad]

Take heart and console yourself in that I watched a YouTube video yesterday that showed a pilot shooting down 5 Russian fighters during one flight, in a Ju 87 D3! 

 

YES, A STUKA! So speed and big guns aren't the only things a capable pilot can bring into an air fight. 

[ITAF_Rani]

And consider that the ace pilot in the stuka is also a girl,  one of the best player online...

[Lusekofte]

I hate to say it I like the P 40 better, and I was looking forward to this plane. I do not say it is modeled wrong , nor am I saying it is anything wrong with it. But I simply do not like it

[Thad]

47 minutes ago, ITAF_Rani said:

And consider that the ace pilot in the stuka is also a girl,  one of the best player online...

Yes, she is obviously very good. ?

34 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

I hate to say it I like the P 40 better, and I was looking forward to this plane. I do not say it is modeled wrong , nor am I saying it is anything wrong with it. But I simply do not like it

Like most craft, we have to use them to their strengths and avoid their tactical weaknesses as much a possible. 

[JonRedcorn]

1 hour ago, Thad said:

Take heart and console yourself in that I watched a YouTube video yesterday that showed a pilot shooting down 5 Russian fighters during one flight, in a Ju 87 D3! 

 

YES, A STUKA! So speed and big guns aren't the only things a capable pilot can bring into an air fight. 

You have a link to that video?

[Lusekofte]

5 minutes ago, Thad said:

Like most craft, we have to use them to their strengths and avoid their tactical weaknesses as much a possible. 

 

Well I liked the P 39 early on old IL 2, it behaved maybe overdone like the pilots that flew it said, and behaved in a way you related to it in your own mind. This was years ago, and I read only about the ones operated by RAAF and US pilots. Pilots that flew them in US moved on to Jugs and P 51 later on, and I am sure they subcontiously compared the aircraft while talking about the P 39, most of them disliked it, probably because they fought the Zero before they knew its weak points. RAAF Pilots seemed to like the planes better, and I am sure many of them went over to more agile planes later on. 

I relate to very plane the way I in my mind think they will feel like, and my mind is probably the part that got it wrong. I do not like the HS 129 either, it simply in my mind fight gravity like a UFO. In my mind that is. I do not claim to be right in my assumptions. But this is how I rate planes in this game. I like the LAGG , IL 2 and PE 2 (latter should have been more a handful in too many ways to explain here) but they in my mind are close to what my impression they should be 

6 minutes ago, JonRedcorn said:

You have a link to that video?

 

Here you go : 

 

[sevenless]

1 hour ago, LuseKofte said:

 

Here you go : 

 

 

I am waiting for the day when she repeats this using a Fokker DR-1. Incredible flying and aiming skills.

Edited July 24, 2018 by sevenless

[Ehret]

2 hours ago, OverTheEdge said:

When fighting against the German fighter planes in the P-39L-1, they simply outrun me. There is nothing that I can do to catch up to these fighters to get within firing range. Of course (and I have not yet checked), specs may dictate that this is just a slower plane, but I just wanted to be sure that my using assists (as opposed to pitch, boost and other controls) does not hinder the planes performance.

 

Well... - you can do something: you need the flush setting for radiators, that's 60% for the water and 45% for the oil. So, it means turning off the assist, however,  that setting will keep engine cool as long you have some speed and the latter will be much higher, now.

 

For the P-39 the "60/45" setting is the most overlooked thing. Another one is forgetting to close windows (open add a lot of drag).

 

You will need to do some engine tweaking as well - there are some settings and tests.

 

2 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

The p-39 isn't the fastest plane and it certainly isn't going to catch a 109 or a 190 in level flight or a climb, you gotta surprise them in a dive. Which is easier said than done playing single player.

 

To the contrary - the Airacobra is one of fastest fighters exceeding 570km/h  @ SL on autumn maps in level flight. That can not be maintained for long, thought. However, you can outrun 109s readily on the deck, and 190s when at 3000m; the latter can be out-climbed to that altitude, too.

 

Still, for workload and convenience there is no comparison to a single throttle automated 109/190... In the P-39 you have manage throttle, rpm and mix all independently.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Ehret

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Ehret said:

In the P-39 you have manage throttle, rpm and mix all independently.

 

Mixture is hardly an issue - set it to Auto-Rich and you're good to go.

[CrazyDuck]

You simply picked a very challenging aircraft for a beginner, in particular in regards to its formidable German 1943 opponents.

 

Like said above me, you can actually make the P-39 very fast (for a limited amount of time tho), but this requires an impeccable manual engine management and a vast amount of experience and knowledge.

 

Why not hopping into one of them Russian birds, they appear to be more forgiving (as long as you use engine management assist at least).

 

Also, keep in mind that being faster than their opponents at the cost of other characteristics (maneouverability etc.) was one of the main strengths of Luftwaffe fighters in the initial years of war.

Edited July 25, 2018 by CrazyDuck

[Ehret]

4 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Mixture is hardly an issue - set it to Auto-Rich and you're good to go.

 

Indeed... running at 66% mix does increase performance at cost of higher temps, actually. Then, why then 90% mix and "full rich" are stated as requirements for take-off/WEP power in specs page?

[HandyNasty]

I did some tests about level speeds at combat, emergency and boosted power for P39 with wing guns removed ingame, compared to the G-4 (note : speeds in TAS, with some kph's error margin, engine not overheating, full fuel)

 

altitude

P-39 (combat / emergency / boosted)

G-4 (combat / emergency)

 

 

So for level flights, the P39 in emergency (5 minutes) power is faster than the G-4 in boosted mode up to ~ 3500m. Keep in mind that in acceleration, the G-4 outperforms the Cobra drastically.

 

 

[Mac_Messer]

The P39 requires careful management of energy you have while flying. You need at all times to be aware of the state your plane is and where it generally fails to do.  In that sence, it is an aircraft that requires advanced pilot skills. For example you cannot let yourself to be suckered into following the 109/190 into a spiral climb. Engine management I`d say still has a marginal role in combat, with German player benefitting the most from automatic radiator settings.

If you are a beginner, pick the Yak or Spitfire - both are generally forgiving and climb well but still if you go out of line they become feisty. Flying them, in time you will become more aware of energy management. The Spitfire mk V is perfectly able to outfly the 109G2/G4/G6 though not without paying attention to what you do.

[blitze]

I might not like the forward view from the P39 but there was never an issue hurting Germans in it.  Also ditch some fuel load on mission and the .30 cals for weight as well as manage your engine.   It flies fast enough, and with combat flaps, turns easy enough too.  Just treat your ammo with the .50 cals and cannon the same as you would in any VVS fighter (sparingly) and you will be able to down many 109's and 190's in campaign.

 

Spit V is another proposition, I just don't gell well with its wing mounted guns but it is good at bomber escort where you use your bombers as bait and also soft column straifing. I probably just need more time with it but I transferred out to a Yak unit myself in my Kuban VVS Career.

[Ehret]

29 minutes ago, Mac_Messer said:

The P39 requires careful management of energy you have while flying. You need at all times to be aware of the state your plane is and where it generally fails to do.  In that sence, it is an aircraft that requires advanced pilot skills. For example you cannot let yourself to be suckered into following the 109/190 into a spiral climb. Engine management I`d say still has a marginal role in combat, with German player benefitting the most from automatic radiator settings.

 

When dealing with the 190 it's possible to push things a little as the FW's superchargers gears exhibit dip in power around 2-3km. Coincidentally it's when the P-39's engine starts to be at its strongest.

 

Just now, blitze said:

I might not like the forward view from the P39 but there was never an issue hurting Germans in it.  Also ditch some fuel load on mission and the .30 cals for weight as well as manage your engine.   It flies fast enough, and with combat flaps, turns easy enough too.  Just treat your ammo with the .50 cals and cannon the same as you would in any VVS fighter (sparingly) and you will be able to down many 109's and 190's in campaign.

 

The quad .30 would be much more useful if the on/off switches for guns (you can find them P-39' dashboard left side) would get implemented. They are good for snapshots, starting fires and strafing soft-targets and 1000 rpg capacity is just great. Unfortunately, using them mean expending limited 0.50s ammo first.

[Mac_Messer]

25 minutes ago, Ehret said:

 

When dealing with the 190 it's possible to push things a little as the FW's superchargers gears exhibit dip in power around 2-3km. Coincidentally it's when the P-39's engine starts to be at its strongest.

Please be more specific, what throttle setting P39/FW190 and oil/water radiator setting.

[HandyNasty]

10 minutes ago, Mac_Messer said:

Please be more specific, what throttle setting P39/FW190 and oil/water radiator setting.

 

What Ehret means with "you can push things a little", or at least what I understand what he means, is that the 190 has a dip in performance from 2000m-3000m due to it switching supercharger gear. My tests give me level speeds without overheat (aka, rads not at 0%) in TAS, with error margin of a few kph :  

 

altitude 

P-39 ingame without 0.30 cals (combat / emergency / boosted)

Fw190A-5 (combat / boosted)

 

 

Considering only boosted engine modes : 

Up until 3k the P-39L is roughly as fast as the 190. Note that at 3000m, the P-39 is actually ~15kph TAS faster than the 190. Note also that at 3000m, setting 100% throttle and 100% pitch with the P-39 does not reach 60 inches of MP. This explains why, at 3000m, emergency power for the P39 gives same speed as boosted power. As such at 3000m, one cannot reach boosted mode and only reach emergency mode, and this can be held for 5 minutes. AKA : at 3k alt, P39's top speed is ~15kph faster than A-5's, using an engine mode that can be held longer (5 minutes) compared to the engine mode of the A-5 (3 minutes)

 

 

Now, I know combat isn't given by level speeds, but by plenty other things too. I am just posting this to show that, in a P39, if you have to combat a 190, do so around 3000m. Engine power comparison is optimal at those altitudes for the Cobra.

 

 

[Ehret]

Just now, Mac_Messer said:

Please be more specific, what throttle setting P39/FW190 and oil/water radiator setting.

 

I keep the "60/45" rads the whole time - it may overheat but to damage something is not that easy. 100% rpm for climb/acceleration, 94% rpm for running at constant speed when under 3km. I used (but now I may experiment with constant 66%) 90% mix for 85-89% throttle, 100% mix for 90-100% throttle. My usual fuel load is 75% and 0.30" are removed. From my MP experience I would out-climb a FW to 3km starting initially (reducing it with alt) with 100% WEP and similar co-speed (+500km/h).

 

Of course I try to stay as coordinated as possible.

 

Just now, =FSB=HandyNasty said:

Now, I know combat isn't given by level speeds, but by plenty other things too. I am just posting this to show that, in a P39, if you have to combat a 190, do so around 3000m. Engine power comparison is optimal at those altitudes for the Cobra.

 

Or run away from the 190 - especially the A5 which can get the Cobra after few minutes on the deck. IMHO, the worst dilemma for P-39 driver is to id between the A3 and the A5.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Ehret

[303_Bies]

9 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Mixture is hardly an issue - set it to Auto-Rich and you're good to go.

 

4 hours ago, Ehret said:

Indeed... running at 66% mix does increase performance at cost of higher temps, actually. Then, why then 90% mix and "full rich" are stated as requirements for take-off/WEP power in specs page?

 

You need to set the mixture to "Full Rich" to use War Emergency power (1550HP on deck), not Auto-Rich.

 

And the richer the mixture the lowere the temperature, because there is bigger amount of fuel and smaller amount of air during combuston. Leaning the mix will increase the temperature.

cheers

[OverTheEdge]

Thanks to you all for the comments and tips!

[Tag777]

Trimming the plane adequately must be another point to take in consideration as well.

[dkoor]

@OP;  you probably haven't fought Bf-109E then... I often load that fighter with additional armour and panzer glass, rack/bomb, and atfer ditching the bomb it has major problems outrunning I-16 let alone anything faster... Friedrich and Gustav are whole another level, they are super agile and fast... I was jawdropping the other day after opening the throttle on G14, that things picks up speed super fast and is super agile... I cannot shake the feeling that it is noticeably more potent fighter than LA-5FN as after catching them I had no problems keeping with those in maneuvers (ace Ai).