Fokker DR1 forward stick to keep level..

[Guest deleted@83466]

5 minutes ago, Ehret said:

 

I understand enough to be able to distinguish between the "full auto" 109 and the driver who is managing manual pitch and radiators in the same 109. In the latter case that's me who is getting shot down, usually.

 

The ability to switch back and forth between automatic pitch or radiator controls to full manual controls in a 109 was a real feature of the aircraft.  What if the guy in the Yak had automatic pitch and radiator controls too?  Well, that would just be pretty unrealistic wouldn't it?

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

50 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

Because telling people to quit making excuses and demanding easy-modes, but rather to get a setup that suits their needs and to practice practice practice is such bad advice....  Riiiiight...People are sure to be handicapped by that.

 

Almost time for a facepalm.

 

 

 

Even if someone wanted to make a realistic control setup for this, nobody makes FFB sicks anymore so there’s no way to do it. 

[Ehret]

24 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

The ability to switch back and forth between automatic pitch or radiator controls to full manual controls in a 109 was a real feature of the aircraft.  What if the guy in the Yak had automatic pitch and radiator controls too?  Well, that would just be pretty unrealistic wouldn't it?

 

Maybe but I wouldn't care for competitive reasons because it wouldn't be an advantage. The "auto" can not anticipate the future where I can on the "manual". I can save lower thermals for later, when the peak performance is needed and ability to fly few moments on closed radiators is beneficial.

 

No such things are possible with the helpers. Realistic or not, they don't allow for a competitive advantage.

 

21 minutes ago, Plank said:

What you GAIN in one region you LOSE in another.

Did no one explain this to you?

 

Yup. I have a better fine control with the custom curve but I'm plagued by accelerated stalls, instead. A trade-off, basically.

 

An offset is similar - that "pseudo-trim" setting (forward push) will cost you precision when doing backward-pull because the back half arc of the stick will have accommodate the extra offset part of the forward-push and the "true neutral", instead of just backward-pull.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Ehret

[Guest deleted@83466]

21 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Even if someone wanted to make a realistic control setup for this, nobody makes FFB sicks anymore so there’s no way to do it. 

 

If you really want an FFB, because you think that is the only possible controller that could meet your needs, you could probably get one on Ebay today.

15 minutes ago, Plank said:

 

 

I really don't think that people who change the neutral point of the stick to mitigate the constant stick forward

to hold level flight EVER thought that they were making the game more realistic.

 

The constant stick forward in the game might actually be wrong, too much or simply badly coded. Who knows!

 

and how long did you spend writing that sentence? It's almost grammatically correct!

Even reading it makes me go cross eyed.

 

Salute!

 

Plank.

 

Yes, I agree, that was a pretty tedious sentence I put together there.  But in fairness, if your eyes were hurting, have you ever bothered to re-read any of your own posts?

 

Speaking of tedious, I think that for a better understanding of the relationship between S-Curves and Offsets, and the compromise between Realism and desired joystick precision, your best bet is to go back and read the rest of the thread.  It's been explained several times.  Some think it's a acceptable compromise.  I think it is the worst one possible if you care about realism, and largely unnescessary in the first place.

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, Plank said:

.......

What you GAIN in one area you LOSE in another.

 

Net result = nothing much has changed

.......

 

I didn't use S-Curves in Rise of Flight.  I put in an Offset, and then the input line went straight up to upper right hand corner, and down to the lower left hand corner.  Imagine a very widened V laying diagonally.  What that meant is that forward of the center detent the input was completely linear, and aft of the center detent it was completely linear too.  Front and aft sensitivities were not quite the same, but everything was linear, and I absolutely did not have the kind of tradeoff you are trying to "explain" to me.  Gain of an unoticeable amount of sensitivity on one side of the detent, and minor, equally unoticeable loss of sensitivity on the other, and completely linear along all the range of forward motion, and all the range of backward motion.   Honestly, there is nothing for you to explain to me.  I understand the situation perfectly, and have no doubt that the plane was a lot easier to fly and shoot with, thanks to the offset.  The only downside was realism.  I was the one flying it afterall...I should know.  I wouldn't have bothered using Offsets if I didn't think the plane became easier to fly and made me more competitive with other people who were doing the same.  I started to have a noticeable increase in my lethality after I started using Offsets.  It instantly made me more competitive, all just by pulling a point down on a graph with my mouse.  So if you are telling me that the plane is not easier to fly as a result of using Fake Trim, or that it all balances out somehow with no net gain, you're either honestly wrong, or intentionally dishonest...

Edited October 9, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[Zooropa_Fly]

I suggest the devs introduce pitch and rudder trim offsets in the hangar part of the game. Once selected a 'virtual curve' would be created smoothing the axes off to their end points. Thus no curve input from the user. Adjustable up to 30% either way, or there abouts.

If pilots indeed had these things tweaked on the ground pre-flight, then a sense of realism is maintained.. and highly-sprung-sticksters can sort themselves out.

 

Planky - I disagree that the S Curve can't represent an advantage...

In the Camels' case slowing down that pitch forward reaction makes it much easier to perform in (and I've a virpil with 5" of extension btw).

The payback at the extreme end isn't a worry since full stick forward isn't something I do much.

 

I'm not convinced pre-setting a pitch offset (that's not changeable in-flight), is going to help anyone perform any better though..

 

S!

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

If you really want an FFB, because you think that is the only possible controller that could meet your needs, you could probably get one on Ebay today

Well I mean a good FFB stick. Something equal in quality to a CH and all the HOTAS functionality. I tried one from Logitech years ago but it wasn’t very good. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

45 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

I suggest the devs introduce pitch and rudder trim offsets in the hangar part of the game. Once selected a 'virtual curve' would be created smoothing the axes off to their end points. Thus no curve input from the user. Adjustable up to 30% either way, or there abouts.

If pilots indeed had these things tweaked on the ground pre-flight, then a sense of realism is maintained.. and highly-sprung-sticksters can sort themselves out.

 

Planky - I disagree that the S Curve can't represent an advantage...

In the Camels' case slowing down that pitch forward reaction makes it much easier to perform in (and I've a virpil with 5" of extension btw).

The payback at the extreme end isn't a worry since full stick forward isn't something I do much.

 

I'm not convinced pre-setting a pitch offset (that's not changeable in-flight), is going to help anyone perform any better though..

 

S!

 

Well, I'm telling you that pre-setting the pitch offset helped my performance greatly.

 

A realistic simulation of modifying the airplane's tendencies by the ground crew would be fine as long as it was true to the airplane, and it was something that a pilot could just tell his ground guy to do.  I'm going to guess that certain aircraft could be rigged and tweaked a lot more than others.  Some probably weren't very changeable at all.  I'm not sure that some of these tendencies could just be tweaked away as much as you think.  For instance, you might not be able to just eliminate completely the tail heaviness of some plane.  In World War 2, a lot of the planes had bendable tabs, which, to my knowledge, were not present in any of our WW I planes.  I think DCS might allow you to adjust those, but i would have to go check.  In DCS, it lets you modify the flettner tabs on the ailerons and rudder of the 109K-4.  Those kinds of things would be fine in IL-2, as long as it maintained an historical accuracy.  But that's a much different approach than these fakey Offsets, that can be done up however anyone wants them for any plane, to whatever extent, and whatever control surface.  Such a thing would realistically be a lot more limited. 

 

This might be one of those times when a guy like Chill31 could provide some insight on at least the Dr.I in this regard.  What can be done with it on the ground? (and I don't mean sticking a bag of cement behind the firewall or something corny that wouldn't be done in a WWI combat squadron)

Edited October 9, 2018 by SeaSerpent
verified DCS function

[SharpeXB]

There’s a part in The Blue Max (novel) where Stachel had a prank done to him on his first flight, the rigger makes him push his stick forward on his first patrol. The author knew quite a lot about these aircraft so possibly there was a certain amount of trimming that could be done on the ground. 

[Chill31]

2 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

This might be one of those times when a guy like Chill31 could provide some insight on at least the Dr.I in this regard.  What can be done with it on the ground? (and I don't mean sticking a bag of cement behind the firewall or something corny that wouldn't be done in a WWI combat squadron)

 

I'll take a picture for you tomorrow, and ask a friend who build these old birds regularly.

[Atomic_Spaniel]

22 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

You need to read whats been written about 50 times, bud.  I never said S-Curves were like "Simplified Controls".  I said joystics Offsets were like Simplified Controls.  Offsets man, offsets.  And if you need to use Offsets to make your Curves work, then you aren't significantly increasing realism, you are significantly decreasing it.  Having the computer provide fake elevator trim is a pretty steep realism price to pay if one insists on using S-Curves to get a little more sensitivity around a small central band of their joystick (and worse sensitivity elsewhere!).

 

My reading skills are adequate, thank you :). 

 

I think you misunderstand what I (and others) are saying. I want a control system where I have to push forward or pull back on the stick under the same circumstances where the RL pilot would have to do so. To do this using BoX/FC's control mapping with spring-centred sticks is not possible because there will be situations where, for instance, the RL pilot would feel the aircraft to be nose heavy, but the PC stick would still have to be pushed forward (The SE5a was a good example of this in early RoF). Getting the direction of stick push/pull to agree with RL is more important than getting the stick angles of deflection to match if it leads to the wrong push/pull.

 

The way to get around this is to use curves, or "offsets" as you call them (note that a curve does not have to pass through the origin). This is in no way a simplified control like having no spins/stalls etc. It's actually a sophisticated and flexible solution allowing us to reproduce as well as we can, with entertainment peripherals, the handling characteristics of the real a/c. I'm sure you've flown more real-life a/c types than I have (I'm only approaching double figures), but surely we all want to reproduce the essential character of the real a/c's handling, rather than fixate over someone getting a trivial advantage amongst the tiny number of people who play this game online? If so, then RoF's later flexibility in control mapping is essential and if we don't use it we end up with some very odd handling characteristics that are nothing like those of the real a/c.

 

[Guest deleted@83466]

7 hours ago, NickM said:

 

My reading skills are adequate, thank you :). 

 

I think you misunderstand what I (and others) are saying. I want a control system where I have to push forward or pull back on the stick under the same circumstances where the RL pilot would have to do so. To do this using BoX/FC's control mapping with spring-centred sticks is not possible because there will be situations where, for instance, the RL pilot would feel the aircraft to be nose heavy, but the PC stick would still have to be pushed forward (The SE5a was a good example of this in early RoF). Getting the direction of stick push/pull to agree with RL is more important than getting the stick angles of deflection to match if it leads to the wrong push/pull.

 

The way to get around this is to use curves, or "offsets" as you call them (note that a curve does not have to pass through the origin). This is in no way a simplified control like having no spins/stalls etc. It's actually a sophisticated and flexible solution allowing us to reproduce as well as we can, with entertainment peripherals, the handling characteristics of the real a/c. I'm sure you've flown more real-life a/c types than I have (I'm only approaching double figures), but surely we all want to reproduce the essential character of the real a/c's handling, rather than fixate over someone getting a trivial advantage amongst the tiny number of people who play this game online? If so, then RoF's later flexibility in control mapping is essential and if we don't use it we end up with some very odd handling characteristics that are nothing like those of the real a/c.

 

 

If your reading skills are adequate, then start using them.

 

Offsets bring us closer to realistic Push/Pull under the same circumstances of real life on a Trimless aircraft, huh?  No they don't.  They simply provide additional forced constant input, without you, the guy with your hand on the joystick, having to actually apply it, where in real life you really would have to (see our long standing example of a real Dr.I pilot having to apply forward pressure during cruise, but you don't have to thanks to your elevator Offset).  It's magical input and it doesn't take into account any "circumstances", aerodynamic or otherwise.  If I've biased for a 20% deflection from the center of a spring-centered joystick, I get a 20%  deflection, that I'm not actually inputing, no matter what, when I release the joystick...it's applying elevator for me...and the best analogy for that very fakey form of trim is actually not a bendable tab on the elevator, or even a bungee cord attaching the stick to the panel, but rather the "Force Trim" that you'll find on a Helicopter cyclic, locking the no-force position of the stick at a specific angle.   Your need to "explain" the issues to me to correct my "understanding" leads me to believe that you really haven't payed attention to a single thing me or anyone else has said in this thread, or else you haven't noticed what points are being argued at all.   "...curves, or 'offsets' as you call them..."  Nope!  "...note that a curve does not have to pass through the origin..."  No kiddin' there, Nick????? Had you even bothered to notice for the last 5 pages, everyone in this thread has been referring to that axis displacement as an 'Offset' and it's role as psuedo-trim for the entirety of the discussion?  Quit wasting my time.  

 

All these "compromises" to address the differences between a spring-centered joystick and a real stick in a real airplane lead to solutions that may bring us closer to reality in one area but equally or even farther away from reality everywhere else...get a FFB stick to get closest to the real thing.  For everybody else, the best "compromise" is none at all:  forget about all this nonsense, take your standard joystick, get rid of any curves or offsets, and just FLY for crying out loud!

Edited October 10, 2018 by SeaSerpent
minor edits

[PikAss]

Nice battle guys. :-)

[SharpeXB]

40 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

Offsets know knothing about the aerodynamic neutral of the Stick.  

Neither does a spring. The trim or centering force you keep going on about is artificial when using a non-FFB stick. The spring is already putting you in a nose up attitude in addition to whatever trim condition the plane is in. Even in the trimmable WWII birds. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Neither does a spring. The trim or centering force you keep going on about is artificial when using a non-FFB stick. The spring is already putting you in a nose up attitude in addition to whatever trim condition the plane is in. Even in the trimmable WWII birds. 

 

Let me try to approach this in a different way and ask you a question:  Let's say you had a floor mounted, high precision Virpil joystick with a 5 inch extension.  Would you be using Curves?  And if you aren't using Curves, would you feel the need to apply an Offset?

 

(because frankly, I think OUR disagreement is not so much about whether Offsets are in any way realistic, it's whether they are an acceptable departure from reality that is needed to establish a more realistic stick precision, as you would get with a more realistically sized stick.  Am I correct about that?)

Edited October 9, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

49 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

Let me try to approach this in a different way and ask you a question:  Let's say you had a floor mounted, high precision Virpil joystick with a 5 inch extension.  Would you be using Curves?  And if you aren't using Curves, would you feel the need to apply an Offset?

If I had a floor mounted stick, no I don’t believe I would need response curves. 

If I had a force feedback floor mounted stick I wouldn’t need curves or offsets. Because such a controller would duplicate the real thing. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If I had a floor mounted stick, no I don’t believe I would need response curves. 

If I had a force feedback floor mounted stick I wouldn’t need curves or offsets. Because such a controller would duplicate the real thing. 

 

But in the case of a large spring-centered stick, you would still use Offsets, even without Curves to provide helicopter-style Force Trim, allowing you to have a no-forward pressure cruise state, even though in the real thing you actually would have to apply forward stick force?  Why?  Convenience, comfort, and ease of operation, or because you're telling me that you think this better represents reality?

Edited October 9, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

28 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

But in the case of a large spring-centered stick, you would still use Offsets, even without Curves to provide helicopter-style Force Trim, allowing you to have a no-forward pressure cruise state, even though in the real thing you actually would have to apply forward stick force?  Why?  Convenience, comfort, and ease of operation, or because you're telling me that you think this better represents reality?

I understand that offsets are a game setting and not realistic. But neither is a short table mounted spring stick. A full length stick solves the sensitivity problem and for my taste, holding the stick forward isn’t the problem, it’s the sensitivity. So I would probably not use an offset with a full size stick. 

 

But everyone’s hardware is not the same. That’s why RoF has this menu. So no matter what gear I’m using, I would still agree with having the custom response menu. And not having this as some sort of easy pilot setting on servers. That’s too finicky. There aren’t enough players online in these sims to worry about stuff like that. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I understand that offsets are a game setting and not realistic. But neither is a short table mounted spring stick. A full length stick solves the sensitivity problem and for my taste, holding the stick forward isn’t the problem, it’s the sensitivity. So I would probably not use an offset with a full size stick. 

 

But everyone’s hardware is not the same. That’s why RoF has this menu. So no matter what gear I’m using, I would still agree with having the custom response menu. And not having this as some sort of easy pilot setting on servers. That’s too finicky. There aren’t enough players online in these sims to worry about stuff like that. 

 

OK so...

 

My position: A standard desktop joystick is quite good enough without ever having to use S-Curves, and it isn't worth the hit on reality you take when you apply an Axis Offset to allow that S-Curve to work. Offsets also make the plane easier to fly and fight with regardless of what joystick you have or even if you don't have S-Curves associated with the Offset.  Offset is Fake Trim.  I don't want that, because it is very unrealistic, but since other people might use it in MP,  they get to have a gamey "assist" over players that aren't using it.  I don't think there is ever a need for Axis Offsets, except for easymode, and there is no place for them in Full Real MP.  I believe having Fake Trim far outweighs any perceived advantages confered by longer stick lengths or precisions, which I think tends to be not very significant for fixed wing flight simulation.  If people are worried they are losing some kind of Joystick arms race, they can get out their wallet and join it,  but any compromise calibration solution that uses or requires Axis Offset is not the way to go.

 

Your position:  A standard desktop joystick doesn't have enough precision to be a adequate controller without S-Curves; and you're willing to accept the additional compromise of an Offset in order to make that S-Curve work.  You don't care if there is any relative advantage/disadvantage to using Offsets/not using them, in a multiplayer environment, and don't mind the unrealism of an Offset. 

 

If this is correct, then I think the best thing here is to stop arguing and agree to disagree, because it's going nowhere.  We've both stated our points multiple times, and we aren't going to resolve it.

 

***sorry for late edits***

Edited October 9, 2018 by SeaSerpent
clarified phrasing

[SharpeXB]

Fair enough

[BadBud]

I did not realize that this was a problem for some until I just went in and flew the Dr-1. But then, I do not have my controllers positioned on my desk top that would create real task for me to fly and enjoy........... and I understand why those with desk top positioned controllers hate it. You might want to re-position your controllers as shown in attached image of "my cockpit". Forward stick pressure is natural and I have not though about it.........until after reading all the comments about it.

And I might add: I love both planes and can hardly wait until the new additions! And have been a fan of ROF since it's creation.

(hope that my cockpit image comes up correctly..............my first try at posting screenshot)

BadBud

[Chill31]

22 hours ago, Chill31 said:

 

I'll take a picture for you tomorrow, and ask a friend who build these old birds regularly.

 

Ok, so the picture shows the bolts that hold the horizontal stabilizer (2 front, 1 rear).  Underneath the stabilizer is a very small margin for adding spacers to raise the front or rear of the stabilizer.  Mine actually has about 1/4 inch spacer under the front, and without measuring it, it must be around 5 degrees incidence or so.  So it can be done, but to a VERY limited degree.

 

My friend who builds these old birds said he didn't know of anyone doing that outside of the designed trim mechanism (sop tripe, pup, etc).  

 

That being said, I think we should keep curves.  I remember when my Warthog didn't have the stick extension, and it wasn't fun to play for very long.  This is supposed to be fun...

 

On the note of realism...there are too many joysticks out there for each one to be accommodated, and each one is going to have its own quirks that people will have to overcome.  None feel like flying an actual airplane in the way you can feel the air through the controls.  I think I'd prefer to have someone using curves and playing the game because they are having fun than not have curves and lose those people from the genre.  

[AndyJWest]

Chill31, this may have been asked before, but how does theDr 1 elevator position in flight (at normal cruise speed) compare to how it is in FC/RoF? Do you need as much down elevator as FC does? Or is it more or less neutral and in line with the tailplane? or perhaps somewhere in between?

Edited October 10, 2018 by AndyJWest

[Guest deleted@83466]

45 minutes ago, Chill31 said:

 

Ok, so the picture shows the bolts that hold the horizontal stabilizer (2 front, 1 rear).  Underneath the stabilizer is a very small margin for adding spacers to raise the front or rear of the stabilizer.  Mine actually has about 1/4 inch spacer under the front, and without measuring it, it must be around 5 degrees incidence or so.  So it can be done, but to a VERY limited degree.

 

My friend who builds these old birds said he didn't know of anyone doing that outside of the designed trim mechanism (sop tripe, pup, etc).  

 

That being said, I think we should keep curves.  I remember when my Warthog didn't have the stick extension, and it wasn't fun to play for very long.  This is supposed to be fun...

 

On the note of realism...there are too many joysticks out there for each one to be accommodated, and each one is going to have its own quirks that people will have to overcome.  None feel like flying an actual airplane in the way you can feel the air through the controls.  I think I'd prefer to have someone using curves and playing the game because they are having fun than not have curves and lose those people from the genre.  

 

 

Thanks for the info you promised. 

 

Now, you know I don't want to get rid of Curves, right?  I just don't think it is realistic to virtually shim their stabilizer not to a limited degree, but to wherever they want with Offsets!

 

I think if I ever have to face people in MP that are able to use Offsets as a routine part of the game, I'll just not bother with FC.  too dumbed down.  Hopefully, if the developers brought this capability to Il-2, the WW2 crowd wouldn't be as inclined to unrealistically change the flying characteristics  of their airplanes down like this, because those planes already at least have actual elevator trim.

Edited October 10, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[Chill31]

21 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

Chill31, this may have been asked before, but how does theDr 1 elevator position in flight (at normal cruise speed) compare to how it is in FC/RoF? Do you need as much down elevator as FC does? Or is it more or less neutral and in line with the tailplane? or perhaps somewhere in between?

The way it looks in ROF/FC is absurd compared to how it looks in flight.  On the other hand, the way my control sticks feel (MS SW FFB2 & TM Warthog + 6in stick extension), it  is a fair representation to the kind of pressure I feel on my hand when flying. 

 

This video shows the full range of elevator positions during flight.  Of note, Mikael Carlson carries just a little more nose down elevator, and I suspect that is because he doesn't have the 1/4 inch spacers that mine has.  If I let go of the controls in flight, the elevator rests with the top of the leading edge sitting about 1/4 inch below the bottom leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer (pitch up).

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

 

Thanks for the info you promised.  You can shim the stabilizer to a very limited degree.

 

Now, you know I don't want to get rid of Curves, right?  I just don't think it is realistic to virtually shim their stabilizer not to a limited degree, but to wherever they want with Offsets!

 

Offsets turned my Rise of Flight Dr.I into arcade-mode Dr.I. and allowed me to take a shortcut in my online game.  I wouldn't use fake trim in the future.  If easy-mode control like that comes to Il-2, and I have to deal with people using it, I think I would rather just give Flying Circus a pass altogether, and hope that maybe in BoX, people would be less inclined to take advantage of gamey stuff like that because the planes are dynamically trimmable.

Yeah, sorry.  I understand where you are at:  you want to fly with and compete with other people flying in "purist" mode, no offsets.  I would love that too, BUT I don't think it is good for business or for the community overall...I just think we need to have more people playing, even if it means they have a slight advantage over me when I fly "purist" mode.  FWIW, they already made the decision to bring offsets to FC...I saw it in the RU forum.  

Edited October 10, 2018 by Chill31

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, Chill31 said:

The way it looks in ROF/FC is absurd compared to how it looks in flight.  On the other hand, the way my control sticks feel (MS SW FFB2 & TM Warthog + 6in stick extension), it  is a fair representation to the kind of pressure I feel on my hand when flying. 

 

This video shows the full range of elevator positions during flight.  Of note, Mikael Carlson carries just a little more nose down elevator, and I suspect that is because he doesn't have the 1/4 inch spacers that mine has.  If I let go of the controls in flight, the elevator rests with the top of the leading edge sitting about 1/4 inch below the bottom leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer (pitch up).

 

 

Yeah, sorry.  I understand where you are at:  you want to fly with and compete with other people flying in "purist" mode, no offsets.  I would love that too, BUT I don't think it is good for business or for the community overall...I just think we need to have more people playing, even if it means they have a slight advantage over me when I fly "purist" mode.  FWIW, they already made the decision to bring offsets to FC...I saw it in the RU forum.  

 

They did?  Well I guess AndyJ and SharpeX will be happy!   I don't know when that was posted, but I wish someone had read that news sooner and saved me and everyone else the trouble of arguing over what looks to be a moot point.  Dissapointed to hear that.

 

 Yes, you are correct, Chill, I very much wanted to compete with other people in purist mode, and was looking forward to doing so in Flying Circus.  Il-2 has given me a far more authentic MP experience than the somewhat gamey one I had with RoF MP, so I'm not really inclined to just repeat all that jazz from RoF all over again in FC.   Have fun with your new fakely and infinitely ground-trimmable airplanes gentlemen and though I'm sure it will dissapoint some of you greatly (yeah right!?) I won't be joining in it with you. That's ok though, because ever since quitting RoF,  I've pretty much been a WW2 guy anyway.  Hopefully the addition of this calibration easymode won't negatively effect the WW2 experience too much, since almost all of those aircraft have actual trim on the elevator, and for the planes that don't have rudder or aileron trim, those planes at least had ground adjustable tabs.  So in those cases, it isn't that much of a stretch if somebody wants to "bend the tab" so to speak.

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[AndyJWest]

Thanks, Chill31. From that, I think we can conclude that the FC Dr.1 modelling is in error somewhere, whether graphically or in the FM. Or perhaps both. Maybe the devs will get a chance to take a look at it sometime.

 

As for the devs deciding to add offsets, I think the majority of those commenting here will see that as good news, regardless of concerns over 'purity', whether real or imagined. Any chance of a link to the discussion? I can't read Russian, but Google Translate seems usually to give the gist of things.

[Poochnboo]

The Dr-1 had a lot of lift. A lot! Besides the triple wings there was even a little wing with an airfoil between the wheels. It was actually a Quadraplane, really! That lift is one of the reasons the Tripe wants to keep climbing and why you have to keep holding that stick forward to keep it level. It's also one of the reasons the airplane could manuever like a whirling dervish. Mess with that tendency and you're going to cut down on the machines abilities a bit. 

A good example, I think , is what hapened to me when my rudder pedals broke years ago. I flew ROF a lot. Now, with no rudder pedels I had to figure out a way to fly my planes until I could replace them. What I did was, I bound the rudder and ailerons to the same input. The roll input. So, now, when I moved my stick left or right, my rudder moved too. I always flew the Camel, and now I could fly the plane without spinning out. It was so easy with that setup. Unfortunetly, I also lost my edge with it. The Camel was too docile. It was easier to fly, but wasn't such a good fighting airplane, anymore. I didn't want to invest in rudder pedals again, and bought a logitech Extreme 3D pro with a twist stick. 

I had my spinning Camel back, and had a good lesson in why a slightly unstable airplane makes a good fighter. 

[HiIIBiIIy]

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

Have fun with your new fakely and infinitely ground-trimmable airplanes gentlemen and though I'm sure it will dissapoint some of you greatly (yeah right!?) I won't be joining in it with you.

That's the best news of this thread so far.?

[Guest deleted@83466]

10 minutes ago, HiIIBiIIy said:

That's the best news of this thread so far.?

 

Don't worry, I won't miss you either. 

 

And hey, maybe I'll even stop in to this section from time to time correct you when you're wrong...(frequently).

?

Edited October 10, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Re response curves and other settings like deadzone and filtering: they're not cheating, because many need them to adjust their controllers to work at all. Or they might have limited space on the desk, or even physical limitations in how much hand and arm movement they have.

 

Controller curves and trims are two different things anyway.

[Guest deleted@83466]

31 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

Re response curves and other settings like deadzone and filtering: they're not cheating, because many need them to adjust their controllers to work at all. Or they might have limited space on the desk, or even physical limitations in how much hand and arm movement they have.

 

Controller curves and trims are two different things anyway.

 

LoL, Erkki.  For some strange reason, I think these issues that you're bringing up might have been discussed already, in a *very recent* thread..... ???

Edited October 10, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Curves are not "artificial trimming" and we all have different hardware. What is your problem?

 

Be my guest and try just flying straight and level, stick centered, in a Fw 190 first using the actual stabilizer and then with a controller curve offset. They're not the same thing and offset actually handicaps you, but I'll let you find out how.

[Zooropa_Fly]

5 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

Don't worry, I won't miss you either. 

 

And hey, maybe I'll even stop in to this section from time to time correct you when you're wrong...(frequently).

?

 

As if you're able to stay away for more than 10 minutes..

[SharpeXB]

13 hours ago, Chill31 said:

None feel like flying an actual airplane in the way you can feel the air through the controls.

I sure wish there were controllers for flight sims which had this kind of feedback. Experiencing it in racing sims, where you can feel every bit of the road through the wheel is just incredible. And then realizing that’s what you’re missing in flight sims. 

I tried force a feedback stick years ago, but it didn’t feel good, it felt like rough electric motors pushing on the stick. It would be really expensive to make a flight stick with the quality that some of the racing wheels have, all made from steel and aluminum with steel gearing. I think the market just isn’t there. But it would be so cool. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

11 hours ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

Curves are not "artificial trimming" and we all have different hardware. What is your problem?

 

Be my guest and try just flying straight and level, stick centered, in a Fw 190 first using the actual stabilizer and then with a controller curve offset. They're not the same thing and offset actually handicaps you, but I'll let you find out how.

 

There are 6 pages of discussion which demonstrate that *****NOBODY**** said S-Curves were fake trimming.  Nobody.  Quit confusing terms to muddle an argument that has already basically concluded with all of it's main points of view.

 

Your example of the FW-190 is correct, but it is not a good example of the issue that was being discussed.  In that aircraft, you have a moveable Stabilizer.    Having an Offset that fights your stabilizer position would cause an undue amount of drag.  It's much better to simply adjust the moveable stabilizer to an optimal position.  So if someone were dumb enough to use offsets on that aircraft, it indeed would be a handicap, not an asset.  The situation is analgous to the Se-5, Pup, and a small handful of other aircraft that allow the pilot to dynamically trim the aircraft via a moveable stabilizer.  Because of the moveable tail, those are special cases.  This is why I'm not too worried that the addition of Offset capability to IL-2 will have much, if any negative effect on the WW2 components of IL-2.  The entire discussion, if you'd read, was about untrimmable aircraft like the DR.I.

 

In planes that don't have moveable stabilizers, or even pilot controlled trim tabs, it's very clear that Offsets are indeed fake trim, albeit static state, and with little downside.  There is no downside as in your FW-190 example because there is no drag penalty, and the aircraft retains full control authority and manuever capability.  And I don't know if you ever even played RoF, but the ability to "trim" the plane so that it will fly nearly hands off in max cruise made the plane a lot easier.  I know, because I flew RoF for a lot of time without Offsets, and I flew RoF with Offsets.  Offsets made everything a lot easier, but they also made all of the planes fly in ways that they didn't really fly, from a pilot's point of view. 

 

8 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

 

As if you're able to stay away for more than 10 minutes..

 

Correcting people who are wrong on the internet takes more of my time than I would like it!   Good news for you:  Chill31 said he read that they are going to bring Offsets into Il-2, and so you can be happy for that.  It means that the developers made a different choice than I would have liked; it doesn't mean that the arguments I made are invalid.  It doesn't mean it's not fake trim.  It doesn't mean it's not gamey.  It just means, that Flying Circus took another baby step in the direction of being just like RoF, a game I quit playing, among other things, because it wasn't delievering the kind of simulation experience that I desired. 

Edited October 10, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[Zooropa_Fly]

I don't think I ever said I wanted anything implemented (any Camel comment aside..).

I can understand why they would, and some of the arguments (both ways) - but I'm really not fussed.

 

S!

 

[LeLv76_Erkki]

"Fake trims" can make the plane easier to fly but they dont give more performance to someone who has gotten used to flying without them.

 

what if I removed the centering springs from my joystick to make it much easier to hold it at any specific point - would that also be cheating? My stick also has small "trimming" wheels that allow me to offset the center point of both X and Y axis to literally any point I want even if the game doesnt have that feature - do I cheat? What about doing the same with a software?

 

You see, when a game provides these tools to everyone(in the form of complete profile controls of all axis response curves, offsets, deadband, filtering etc.) it levels the playing field. Oh yes the planes then arent flown as they should(stick position wise anyway) but how would you force your preferences to everyone?

[Guest deleted@83466]

10 minutes ago, LeLv76_Erkki said:

"Fake trims" can make the plane easier to fly but they dont give more performance to someone who has gotten used to flying without them.

 

what if I removed the centering springs from my joystick to make it much easier to hold it at any specific point - would that also be cheating? My stick also has small "trimming" wheels that allow me to offset the center point of both X and Y axis to literally any point I want even if the game doesnt have that feature - do I cheat? What about doing the same with a software?

 

You see, when a game provides these tools to everyone(in the form of complete profile controls of all axis response curves, offsets, deadband, filtering etc.) it levels the playing field. Oh yes the planes then arent flown as they should(stick position wise anyway) but how would you force your preferences to everyone?

 

Um...not to be rude Erkki, but all of these points have already been discussed back and forth about 20 times over, so I don't really need someone to explain the "issue" for me again.  I'll only add that nobody used the world "cheat".  Please stop misrepresenting things that have been said.

 

I have thousands of hours in RoF, both using Elevator bias Offsets, and also not using them.  I really don't need anyone to explain to me the effect they had on my flying and shooting, because already know what benefits they gave me.  I was the pilot.  (They sure improved my performance a lot more than going from a 3" joystick to a 5"  or a 7" joystick, which was minimal, at best)  But we've already said all that in this thread, haven't we?

Edited October 10, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[LeLv76_Erkki]

I did not originally even reply to you. If you feel theres nothing new, why not refrain from posting?

 

Not everyone has time to go through several pages of long discussions. Yes you are rude.

Edited October 10, 2018 by LeLv76_Erkki