Fokker DR1 forward stick to keep level..

[Guest deleted@83466]

45 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Making things harder than reality isn’t making them realistic. Without a sensitivity adjustment you’re making the aircraft much more unstable than they really are/were. IL-2 GB already has this adjustment in the game. In order to adapt that setting to non trimmable planes they’re going to add this menu from RoF. It’s fairly certain. 

 

Making things unrealistic to make things realistic isn't realistic either.  Say that 20 times out loud.  Btw, after they introduced the rudder fix with the Spit Mk.IX, a lot of people who were using S curves. especially the Bf-109 pilots who had complained about twitchiness, commented that they stopped using them, and went to pure linear.  I can't speak to what everyone in this game is doing nowadays, but I can tell you that the several people that I fly with in this game uses pure linear.

 

As far as Rise of Flight style offsets coming to Il-2 GB, I don't know if it's certain or not.  Maybe, maybe not.  The only thing I can do is make the case for why it was a bad compromise in RoF to something that was a completely overblown problem, and the effect it had on diminishing the realism of the simulation.  That "compromise" made the controls far less realistic than the precision of any old linearly calibrated desktop joystick ever did.  The intentions were good, but it turned out to just another easy-setting, but an easy-setting that couldn't be prohibited in multiplayer.   Dr.I or Camel wants to fly nose up, because that's how the real plane flew?  If you used Offsets, you wouldn't even know it had that tendency!  

 

I hope I'm not again faced with the dillemna between experiencing the plane as it was modelled for realism and meant to be experienced, versus knowing that some opponents are using an easy mode, and that I would be giving myself a handicap by not doing what they're doing.

 

Maybe that's the annoying thing about this whole discussion:  You can't have your Offsets be linked to a Realism setting, alongside other ease-of-operation aids such as Auto-Rudder, Auto-Mix, or others.  No...you want to make damned sure that it's going to be there in Full Difficulty servers, and the less guys like me like it, all the better for you!

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

Using red herrings, or trying to make this discussion about some kind of perceived hypocrisy, or about Class Warfare, is not going to distract from the utter unrealistic-ness of Offsets.  Whatever I've done to create my home cockpit made the sim more realistic, not less realistic.  Others can do the same, and if their $20 twist stick joystick isn't cutting it for them, not my problem.  Flight Sim is niche hobby and it generally isn't for casual gamers who aren't willing to step up and get the control hardware that suits their needs to meet the demands of the sim they are trying to play.  And that hardware doesn't necessarily need to be Uber or cost a fortune.  I believe it's the players responsibility to get what they need and set things up for success, not the developers responsibility to provide endless assists and aids to accomodate them.

 

It's not about hypocrisy or class warfare at all.  It's just the same tired elitest position of wanting to maintain a hardware edge (because they know their setup is not practical for the majority of players).  It's not about simulation at all.  You've made that clear by your attitude on Teamspeak, which is why it was relevant. 

 

Your entire argument on both topics (and your history- reluctantly using offsets in RoF, reluctantly using TS) boils down not to simulation, and having an accurate sim experience.  It boils down to something you seem to perceive as an arms race of sorts.  Somebody else flying with offsets doesn't change your simulation experience at all.  But-

 

Anything which potentially narrows a hardware advantage is perceived as a threat.  This is something we've seen from certain subsets of the community for almost as long as flight Sims have existed; and honestly, *you* may not even know you're doing it.

Edited October 8, 2018 by hrafnkolbrandr

[Guest deleted@83466]

26 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

It's not about hypocrisy or class warfare at all.  It's just the same tired elitest position of wanting to maintain a hardware edge (because they know their setup is not practical for the majority of players).  It's not about simulation at all.  You've made that clear by your attitude on Teamspeak, which is why it was relevant. 

 

Your entire argument on both topics (and your history- reluctantly using offsets in RoF, reluctantly using TS) boils down not to simulation, and having an accurate sim experience.  It boils down to something you seem to perceive as an arms race of sorts.  Somebody else flying with offsets doesn't change your simulation experience at all.  But-

 

Anything which potentially narrows a hardware advantage is perceived as a threat; and we are seeing this play out before us.

 

It's not about "Class Warfare" but then you go and call me an "Elitist" who wants to maintain a hardware edge.   Not at all.  I've already explained that I don't really have much of a hardware edge, if any, and I know that because I've used both cheap hardware and expensive hardware.   The guy who is using Offsets to make his plane easier to fly is getting *far* more ease of control than I am from any lengthened stick...and I'm not compromising realism by using a lenghthened stick, I'm enhancing it, making it more like the real plane.  I still have to hold the stick forward and shoot from an awkward stick position.  The guys like you, who are keen on offsets, don't have to do that at all.  You're just flying an airplane with an auto assist that gives you far more easiness than some guy using a lengthened stick.

 

You know that in Rise of Flight, I used Offsets, but left and right of the offset, it was PURELY LINEAR.  My cal profiles looked like a very elongated diagonal V, with no S shape to it whatsoever.  And I used pure linear when I was using a short, cheap joystick.  It just wasnt' necessary to put any kind of a curve in there.  The Offset was exactly how I've categorized it, an Easy Mode, whose only purpose was to trim the plane for slightly nose down flight at full throttle...not some regretablly necessary compromise to get the benefit of a completely unnecessary S curve whle having to hold the stick far from center.

 

Your strawman about Teamspeak seems to be missing all the points I've made about it, as strawmen, by definition, do.

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

In RoF, I only use a pitch offset on the SE5a, and a very slight one on the DVII to enhance comfort, due to sitting on the floor in front of a coffee table when I play.  On some aircraft like the SPAD, I use a curve on the rudder, because twist isn't very precise.  So I am not as "keen" on offsets as you suppose; but I also have no problem with others using them however they like.

 

Please tell me, how does some other player using offsets affect your simulation experience?  How does *your* simulation become less of a simulation when some dude uses an offset?

Edited October 8, 2018 by hrafnkolbrandr

[Guest deleted@83466]

10 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

In RoF, I only use a pitch offset on the SE5a, and a very slight one on the DVII to enhance comfort, due to sitting on the floor in front of a coffee table when I play.  On some aircraft like the SPAD, I use a curve on the rudder, because twist isn't very precise.  So I am not as "keen" on offsets as you suppose; but I also have no problem with others using them however they like.

 

Please tell me, how does some other player using offsets affect your simulation experience?  How does *your* simulation become less of a simulation when some dude uses an offset.

 

Dude, I've already explained it over and over.  Read.

 

You primarily play Rise of Flight on a furball server, with things like Icons and Auto mixture enabled, right?  I don't even think I have ever seen you on a so called "Full Real" server in fact.  But while you're quakin' away on the furball server with 10% fuel and little carrots assisting you with your SA, you're going to tell me what I should be willing to accept on a Full Real server, the purpose of which was ostensibly to cater to more realism-oriented folks? 

 

The problem of you sitting on the floor using a twist-stick, and I suppose a lap top computer to use a flight simulation, shouldn't entitle you to impose your "need" for flying assists on somebody like me.  Don't make your problems, my problems.

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Answer the question.  Or won't you? 

 

You've explained how offsets affect their simulation experience; but if you're not using them, how does it effect yours?

Edited October 8, 2018 by hrafnkolbrandr

[Guest deleted@83466]

7 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

Answer the question.  Or won't you? 

 

I've already answered the question about 20 times.  Some guy using an easy-mode assist is getting an advantage over someone not using it because their plane is easier to fly.  You know I've said that countless times in this thread, right?  My simulation suffers because I have to choose between fighting against some guy using an assist, or deciding to use that very unrealistic assist myself, so that I don't have to feel like I have a hand tied behind my back.

 

Are you thick, or something?  What part of that don't you understand. What part of that didn't you get from the other 20 times I've said that.

 

You're just trolling now, right?

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

I hope I'm not again faced with the dillemna between experiencing the plane as it was modelled for realism and meant to be experienced, versus knowing that some opponents are using an easy mode, and that I would be giving myself a handicap by not doing what they're doing.

If you are going to play online you need to stop obsessing over everyone else’s settings. And blaming them when stuff doesn’t go your way and then whining about it all over the forums. Get over it. You seem to be alone in your opinion. 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

So it's an arms race, got it.  Just as I suspected, entire argument is peen-centric.

[Guest deleted@83466]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

If you are going to play online you need to stop obsessing over everyone else’s settings. And blaming them when stuff doesn’t go your way and then whining about it all over the forums. Get over it. You seem to be alone in your opinion. 

 

I'm not obsessing over anyone's settings.  I'm arguing against casual gamers constant efforts to introduce graduations of unrealism and easy-ness into the game, and then more or less insisting that I should have to fly in MP against players who are using it, or else give in, and use it myself.  Do you even fly online, against real people?  Do you fly on realism oriented servers.

 

I wasn't typically one prone to making excuses when things didn't go my way in Rise of Flight, and after several more years of MP under my belt from Il-2 (which I regard as a much harder and less forgiving experience) I'm even less so now.  Nice try, but that's an incorrect portrait of me, and it certainly isn't what's happening here in this thread. 

 

5 hours ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

So it's an arms race, got it.  Just as I suspected, entire argument is peen-centric.

 

Sorry, but your punch was not landed, so don't pretend that is was.  Your arguments about my standards of realism, or my sense of competiveness, or my sense of fairness, appears to be coming from a guy that just wants to enjoy his video game on a laptop on the coffee table, sitting indian-style, and thinks he should have whatever assists he needs to be competive with people who sit at a desk with joysticks and pedals.  Oh, and you're uncomfortable sitting like that, poor guy, and so they need to change Il-2 to be more like RoF for your sake.  You really couldn't care less about having a flight simulation.  You're the one that  perceives it as an "arms race", and you're losing that arms race (if you're playing on a laptop, yes, you really are losing that arms race!).  As I said, quit trying to make your problems other people's problems.

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent
clarification, rephrased

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

The only person with a problem here is you.  I don't give a damn what equipment and settings you or anybody uses.  Your control scheme and settings don't affect my game in the least.

 

You're the only one on this thread who has expressed feelings of aerial inadequacy which ultimately forced you to use "game assists" that you swear you didn't want to use.

 

So whatever.

Edited October 8, 2018 by hrafnkolbrandr

[Guest deleted@83466]

15 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

The only person with a problem here is you.  I don't give a damn what equipment and settings you or anybody uses.  Your control scheme and settings don't affect my game in the least.

 

You're the only one on this thread who has expressed feelings of aerial inadequacy which ultimately forced you to use "game assists" that you swear you didn't want to use.

 

So whatever.

 

I don't have feelings of "inadequacy" in flight sim, and I don't care if I'm the solitary person in this thread pushing back against this.  Others might not be willing to jump into the muck with you like I have, but several people have pointed out that they have no need for offsets.  You say you don't give a darn  about what equipment I use, but yet you tried to paint me as some wealthy Elitist Warthog user that has some advantage that regular people don't have, trying to keep the man down, and so therefore a guy who is no doubt wrenching his back out, sitting cross-legged at his laptop, should be able to use an easy-mode fake trim flying assist wherever he likes.  Creative argument, I give you that, but not accurate.  You know what, I'm actually glad you joined this argument: I think you actually helped make my point for me.

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

34 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

I'm not obsessing over anyone's settings.

That’s exactly what you’re doing. And you’re obsessing in a way that nobody else cares about or will regulate the way you’re insisting on. 

No flight sim anywhere regulates players control adjustments. So your choice is to accept this or stop playing online. 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

I didn't paint you as anything.  Why build a cockpit?  Why use a $300 stick?  Why use three monitors?

 

Simulation fidelity?  To a point, absolutely.  Oh yeah, Teamspeak in WW1- Well there goes that argument.

 

It may be difficult for you to understand, but no, I really don't care what you use.  That actually sounds like an awesome setup; which is why it is so baffling to me that you're obsessing over what settings other people use in their game.  That is what makes you sound like an elitest, more than anything.  My setup- My settings- they don't change your game a hair.

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by hrafnkolbrandr

[Guest deleted@83466]

Quote

 

I didn't paint you as anything.  Why build a cockpit?  Why use a $300 stick?  Why use three monitors?

 

Simulation fidelity?  Oh yeah, Teamspeak in WW1- Well there goes that argument.

 

It may be difficult for someone like you to understand, but no, I really don't care what you use.  That actually sounds like an awesome setup; which is why it is so baffling to me that you're obsessing over what settings other people use in their game.  That is what makes you sound like an elitest, more than anything.  My setup- My settings- they don't change your game a hair.

 

 

It amazes me some people never get around to realizing that these black and white arguments, these false dichtomies that you put forth are so very easy to refute.  I used Teamspeak, which isn't realistic for WWI, so therefore  by your logic I must relinquish all claims to any arguments about realism.  The idea that because one thing is unrealistic, that therefore all unrealistic things should be accepted is like Logical Fallacy 101 stuff.

 

And yeah, despite your claims to the opposite,  your offset settings do affect others...they affect others when you are able to make a hit on an opponent that you wouldn't otherwise be able to make if you didn't have Otto helping you out with your controls.  But that's already been stated by me a million times, and the only counter to that is for you to simply deny it, without actually providing reasons for why it isn't true.  Because it is true.  Whether you care about it is another matter.  Clearly you don't.

 

39 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s exactly what you’re doing. And you’re obsessing in a way that nobody else cares about or will regulate the way you’re insisting on. 

No flight sim anywhere regulates players control adjustments. So your choice is to accept this or stop playing online. 

 

All flight sims allow control adjustments, but RoF is the only Flight Sim I can recall that had Control Offsets.  I personally never encountered them before this.  But Il-2 obviously doesn't have this built into the game yet, and I haven't heard that there are any plans to do so.  It doesn't sound like a fait accompli.  Hopefully, if developers read this, they'll take into account what I wrote and not do these things.  If, on the other hand, they do change the control scheme around to make it like RoF,  I'll cross that bridge when i come to it.  You know I've been sitting on the sidelines with Flying Circus, because I want to see if the multiplayer environment turns out to be to my liking, or if it just becomes overrun by people who want it to just be a shoot-em-up airplane video game, instead of a combat flight simulation, as is what happened to the MP environment in RoF, and is now all but dead.  We'll see.

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

19 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

All flight sims allow control adjustments, but RoF is the only Flight Sim I can recall that had Control Offsets.

RoF has that adjustment because it’s the only WWI sim where that issue might be a problem. It might be possible to do that in DCS but there wouldn’t be a reason to with those aircraft. The custom response menu there is about as elaborate though. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by SharpeXB

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

You couched your argument earlier under the guise of simulation fidelity.  I wasn't bringing up Teamspeak to suggest that one inaccuracy should be used as  justification for another.  I was pointing out that your dedication to simulation fidelity was just lip service at best.

 

Since you've apparently abandoned the simulation fidelity position, and are quite clearly more worried about competitive advantage (as suspected), we have nothing more to talk about.  More power to you.

[Ehret]

2 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

It's not about "Class Warfare" but then you go and call me an "Elitist" who wants to maintain a hardware edge.   Not at all.  I've already explained that I don't really have much of a hardware edge, if any, and I know that because I've used both cheap hardware and expensive hardware.   The guy who is using Offsets to make his plane easier to fly is getting *far* more ease of control than I am from any lengthened stick...and I'm not compromising realism by using a lenghthened stick, I'm enhancing it, making it more like the real plane.  I still have to hold the stick forward and shoot from an awkward stick position.  The guys like you, who are keen on offsets, don't have to do that at all.  You're just flying an airplane with an auto assist that gives you far more easiness than some guy using a lengthened stick.

 

You know that the longer stick means higher leverage and more precise movement due the longer arc? Those are nice advantages over common joysticks. For me, with my budget stick I have to use plane's build trims just to avoid my hand getting cramped by nonstop pulling. That's why flying the I-16 is literally painful for me and I'm not a masochist to continue. However, with longer stick/higher leverage it could be bearable, actually. Even more so I could use the other hand to help which is not possible with a short joystick. No wonder why you present such opinions because you have a superior controller, already.

 

Personally, I don't mind what others are using even it's to their advantage. This is unavoidable, anyway. There always will be someone with better/easier stuff.

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, Ehret said:

 

You know that the longer stick means higher leverage and more precise movement due the longer arc? Those are nice advantages over common joysticks. For me, with my budget stick I have to use plane's build trims just to avoid my hand getting cramped by nonstop pulling. That's why flying the I-16 is literally painful for me and I'm not a masochist to continue. However, with longer stick/higher leverage it could be bearable, actually. Even more so I could use the other hand to help which is not possible with a short joystick. No wonder why you present such opinions because you have a superior controller, already.

 

Personally, I don't mind what others are using even it's to their advantage. This is unavoidable, anyway. There always will be someone with better/easier stuff.

 

That is the point of adjustable trim...alleviate the pressure you need to exert on the stick!   That's why it was invented, and it's great when it's realistically available

 

And yes I understand the concept of a lever arm.  I also know that while more precision is theoretically possible with a longer stick length, it doesn't always translate that way into helping you out, at least not at the stick lengths we're talking here.  In some cases, I found it might have been preferable to only to have to make a tiny movement on a shorter joystick, rather than having to bang the longer stick all the way into my legs.  It really is a YMMV type of thing.  The longer stick definitely helped for the ultra-precise movements needed to hover the DCS UH-1, but I think the benefits of having a longer stick are being overstated here when we're talking fixed wing aircraft, which don't require those kinds of movements.  When you're using a shorter stick, your muscle memory just gets accustomed to using finer movements.   I didn't need to put an S curve in there when using a shorter stick.

 

When I got my Warthog joystick, even before I got the extension, it was still a lot heftier and had a longer throw than the run-of-the-mill stick I was using before.   I had the Warthog sitting on my desk, and man did it cramp my hand.  Stiff spring, longer grip.  In terms of comfort, it was far worse than any of the budget sticks I used prior.   Do you want to hold your light-springed joystick an inch forward, or do you want to hold your very stiffly springed joystick two inches forward?  Even when I added an extension onto it at some later time, let me tell you it still requires a lot more pressure to hold forward than any other joystick I've ever used.   I can guarantee you that I have to hold more force than flying an out-of-trim aircraft with a WH+75mm extension than if you were using a Logitech attack, or a CH FighterStick.

 

Just like any other joystick, if comfort is a problem for you, a high end stick with a stiff spring and a longer handle is not going to get you to where you want to be.  What's going to get you there, is taking the stick off the desktop and putting it at a lower level and place where you don't have to have your wrist canted at an awkward angle.  I've been there.  And that is going to help you with gunnery accuracy too, a lot more than any leverage advantage of a longer stick.  These are the kinds of things that anybody can do to improve their situation, and the cost need be no more than re-appropriating an old snack table or armrest high bookshelf.

 

The Offsets they want definitely alleviate the problem of having to hold your stick forward, depending on what flight attitude you've trimmed it for (in Rof, I think most trimmed it so that the nose came back to level at full throttle, max cruise speed.)  However, I think instead of trying to eliminate the need hold your stick forward, which is unrealistic, the better solution is to do what I said in the above paragraph above, so that it's comfortable.

 

One of the cool things I find about having so many planes available is that you come to find planes that you prefer, not just because of their raw performance numbers, but because of the way they feel.  The Bf-109 gets stiff on the controls at high speed.  The I-16, like you've noted, is untrimmable.  I see it as not something to be Otto-oed out with things like Offsets, but rather something to take into consideration when you are deciding which plane you like.  I see things like getting a tired hand as something that realistically happens on aircraft without trim controls.  It's part of the simulation.

 

P.S. @hrafn.  I don't think you're fooling anyone by hiding behind the "I'm not saying something, even though I just said it" routine, or claiming that I've shifted my position, when anyone who can read can see I haven't.

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[Zooropa_Fly]

Just for the record, before Hrafn got to 100 he's had several in the 50's to the high 90's recently.

Now whether it's more difficult to get a streak on a server with or without icons is an interesting question.. and that's the only technical difference on NFF where he mostly flies.

You'll usually see him in either a Spad or a DVIIf, 1km or more above everyone else.

He's patient, selects his quarry, then dives down for an often devestating pass, and flies off into the distance or high out of reach at a great rate of knots.

That sounds like the kind of smart tactics you utilise Serpent ?

 

edit :- In fact icons are a major disadvantage to his combat tactics, as you'll realise.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Zooropa_Fly

[Zooropa_Fly]

Whether or not we get the RoF 'Curves' system may well come down to economics as much as anything.

I'm expect the devs may have already / will consider if it's a feature that will help sell more copies of the game.

I guess in context here it's the relationship to MP accessibility that would be the bone of contention.

[SharpeXB]

59 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

 

I'm expect the devs may have already / will consider if it's a feature that will help sell more copies of the game.

Since FC is literally selling to all the same people who purchased RoF I would suspect that every feature of RoF will be asked for and eventually implemented. 

[Ehret]

10 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

And yes I understand the concept of a lever arm.  I also know that while more precision is theoretically possible with a longer stick length, it doesn't always translate that way into helping you out, at least not at the stick lengths we're talking here.  In some cases, I found it might have been preferable to only to have to make a tiny movement on a shorter joystick, rather than having to bang the longer stick all the way into my legs.  It really is a YMMV type of thing.  The longer stick definitely helped for the ultra-precise movements needed to hover the DCS UH-1, but I think the benefits of having a longer stick are being overstated here when we're talking fixed wing aircraft, which don't require those kinds of movements.  When you're using a shorter stick, your muscle memory just gets accustomed to using finer movements.   I didn't need to put an S curve in there when using a shorter stick.

 

There are hardly any "fine movements" with my stick - hypothetically there should be as sensors are good enough but no in the practice. I have to bear with my arm weight, not always smoothly working nerves, the drag in the stick's gimbal and the end result is there is significant hysteresis in the input. Still, I get some precision because I put carefully thought response curves in the settings to "virtually" extend the throw. The cost is reduced precision at hard pulls but the compromise is worth it.

(appropriate tactics helps too - pull Gs only when at high speed and run-away before a slow turning contest develops)

 

The Warthog comes with few different tension springs to customize its tension, doesn't it? So it is "right" to modify your setup using mechanical means but when it's done software wise then it starts to be "bad"?

Edited October 8, 2018 by Ehret

[AndyJWest]

This thread is clearly going nowhere, and accordingly I'll repeat what I said in my first post:

Quote

Given that the lack of trim can be corrected through external software and/or hardware, suggestions that adding such a facility in-game would be 'unrealistic' is moot. If the developers want to add it, they can: there seems to be a demand for it. If the developers chose not to add it, those who want it can make their own arrangements, and those that prefer an arbitrary 'realism' that ignores all the other unrealistic features of 'flying' in front of a computer screen can do so.

 

I will only add to that the following points:

 

As I've since pointed out, it is possible (if a little awkward) to calibrate a joystick with an offset, using only the standard Windows software. This is clearly undetectable, so anyone who objects to offsets is going to have to accept that it may be going on, whether they like it or not.

 

If the developers chose to expressly state that they consider the use of offsets (via software or hardware) to be cheating, I won't use them.

 

If I'm playing on a multiplayer server (I rarely do currently), and the server rules expressly forbid the use of offsets, I will likewise respect that.

 

Beyond that, I see no reason why I should be subject to arbitrary (and unenforceable) 'rules' set by random people who can't accept that not everyone's needs (or finances) match theirs. They can play their way. I will play mine. 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by AndyJWest

[Guest deleted@83466]

2 hours ago, Ehret said:

 

There are hardly any "fine movements" with my stick - hypothetically there should be as sensors are good enough but no in the practice. I have to bear with my arm weight, not always smoothly working nerves, the drag in the stick's gimbal and the end result is there is significant hysteresis in the input. Still, I get some precision because I put carefully thought response curves in the settings to "virtually" extend the throw. The cost is reduced precision at hard pulls but the compromise is worth it.

(appropriate tactics helps too - pull Gs only when at high speed and run-away before a slow turning contest develops)

 

The Warthog comes with few different tension springs to customize its tension, doesn't it? So it is "right" to modify your setup using mechanical means but when it's done software wise then it starts to be "bad"?

 

Nope, Warthog joystick does not have different tension springs.  It's stiff.  The Warthog Throttle does have a little dial at the front that lets you adjust the tension in the throttle axis.

 

I have no problems with curves, but I think they're unnecessary. As SharpeXB has pointed out, if you want to use curves on a plane where your joystick is normally off center, that's where Offsets come into play.  Unfortunately Offsets take a sledghammer to flight realism.  Now you've got your S-Curve where you want it, but you've also got Otto helping you fly the plane.

 

One of the best pilots I knew from RoF used a Logitech Extreme joystick, which retails for about $30.  He never used curves or offsets.

 

You say you have to "bear with my arm weight".   I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that, but it strongly indicates to me that you have a very poorly positioned joystick.  I had to rethink the ergonomics of my joystick and throttle position not once, but several times to get it right.  Have you done everything that you could do to address the problem on your end?

 

Everyone has different circumstances.  Financially, physically, motivationally etc...Some considerations can be made to accomodate different people's situations to a point.  But at some point, maybe one needs to accept that their circumstances doesn't allow them to be as good at some given task as they would like to be.  Somebody might have bad eyes, and so they want to use Icons or SA assists...but that means if they want to play in a 1.5x server, they're going to have to either accept that they'll be disadvantaged by their poor eyesight, or else play somewhere else.  Or get glasses.  In that example, Icons can be turned off by the Server operator, and there are 1.0x servers available for people who want them,and 1.5x servers for those that don't.  Apparently however, in the case of joystick Offsets, the people who are pushing the hardest for them refuse to consider the idea that it should be a realism option that can be turned off in server settings.  It bears repeating that the effect of Offsets, in actual practice, are not much different than things like the options of "Simplified Flight Controls", "Auto Rudder", and "Throttle Auto Limit".   Should I have to play against people who are using "Simplified Flight Controls"?  Who is trying to impose their preferences on whom, again?

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[Atomic_Spaniel]

Curves are quite different from simplified controls because they can actually be used to significantly increase realism.  

[Guest deleted@83466]

21 minutes ago, NickM said:

Curves are quite different from simplified controls because they can actually be used to significantly increase realism.  

 

You need to read whats been written about 50 times, bud.  I never said S-Curves were like "Simplified Controls".  I said joystics Offsets were like Simplified Controls.  Offsets man, offsets.  And if you need to use Offsets to make your Curves work, then you aren't significantly increasing realism, you are significantly decreasing it.  Having the computer provide fake elevator trim is a pretty steep realism price to pay if one insists on using S-Curves to get a little more sensitivity around a small central band of their joystick (and worse sensitivity elsewhere!).

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[ST_ami7b5]

34 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

Nope, Warthog joystick does not have different tension springs.  It's stiff.  The Warthog Throttle does have a little dial at the front that lets you adjust the tension in the throttle axis.

...

 

 

https://warthog-extensions-by-sahaj.com/shop/warthog-green-springs/

I've bought one and it works very good - much less stiffness - easy to install. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

13 minutes ago, ST_ami7b5 said:

https://warthog-extensions-by-sahaj.com/shop/warthog-green-springs/

I've bought one and it works very good - much less stiffness - easy to install. 

 

Thanks ST_ami, didn't know somebody made aftermarket springs, and that will be good for people to know.  I won't be buying one though.  Don't need it.  In fact, with the extra leverage of the 75mm extension, I'm almost tempted to take the extension off to make the stick a little stiffer again.

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

I said joystics Offsets were like Simplified Controls.  Offsets man, offsets.  And if you need to use Offsets to make your Curves work, then you aren't significantly increasing realism, you are significantly decreasing it.  Having the computer provide fake elevator trim is a pretty steep realism price to pay if one insists on using S-Curves to get a little more sensitivity around a small central band of their joystick (and worse sensitivity elsewhere!).

You need the offset to make the curve work so they’re all part of the same setting. 

You’ll never see this made a server setting so you might as well get used to it. 

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

One of the best pilots I knew from RoF used a Logitech Extreme joystick, which retails for about $30.  He never used curves or offsets.

Must have been a good player because those sticks are terrible!

short throw, stiff spring, bad sensors. Playing with no curve which everyone did before the option was added, you’d have trouble hitting a balloon. 

Don’t hand out “advice” to players that puts the game beyond human skill. 

Again. It’s like trying to drive your car with a tiny cheap plastic steering wheel and calling that “realism”

Edited October 8, 2018 by SharpeXB

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

You need the offset to make the curve work so they’re all part of the same setting. 

You’ll never see this made a server setting so you might as well get used to it. 

 

Well you've said that before.  But until the developers actually decide that they're going to impose those unrealistic RoF Offsets on me and others, which they may never, and hopefully won't ever do, then I'm not the one that has to get used to anything.  In the meantime, maybe you are the one who should consider getting used to how things are done now.  Maybe you'll even come to realize how unnecessary it is to use an S-Curve in this game, work on improving your fine motor skills, and by extension, realize why there is no pressing need for Offsets other than to provide yet another Easymode for people who don't like flying realistically untrimmable, tail-heavy aircraft.  The current Il-2GB control scheme was good enough for the I-16 for all this time, so it should be good enough for the Dr.I, Camel, and other untrimmable aircraft.

 

I'm just a paying customer enjoying Il-2 GB, and I've been extremely happy with the developers' attention to realism that they've paid to this sim.  The developers are making their paycheck off this game, so that's going to be a factor in what they decide to do with the unique demands of Flying Circus customers.  I eventually became dissafisfied with Rise of Flight for a number of reasons, and happy when they announced Flying Circus.  But frankly, just from the standpoint of a mere customer, I'm starting to wonder if creating a follow-on to Rise of Flight, under the larger umbrella of IL-2 Great Battles, was such a good idea in the greater scheme of things.  I'm here on the sidelines waiting to see how this whole thing turns out.  Some of you World War One enthusiasts seem to be putting out a lot of complaints and a lot of special demands out there.

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

38 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

Maybe you'll even come to realize how unnecessary it is to use an S-Curve in this game, work on improving your fine motor skills, and by extension, realize why there is no pressing need for Offsets other than to provide yet another Easymode for people who don't like flying realistically untrimmable, tail-heavy aircraft.

There are players out there who can be experts at games using Xbox controllers. Lots of practice can accomplish anything. It doesn’t make sense to bang your head against a wall and use the wrong settings is the game. Making the sim more difficult than reality isn’t “realism”, it’s just misunderstanding the settings. 

Nice attempt at handicapping your opponents by trying to persuade them with bad advice. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There are players out there who can be experts at games using Xbox controllers. Lots of practice can accomplish anything. It doesn’t make sense to bang your head against a wall and use the wrong settings is the game. Making the sim more difficult than reality isn’t “realism”, it’s just misunderstanding the settings. 

Nice attempt at handicapping your opponents by trying to persuade them with bad advice. 

 

Again, there is nothing "realistic" about having Otto help you hold your stick.  I don't recall reading where World War One planes had a Fly-By-Wire-ish Trim assist.  Either you are intentionally ignoring that, or you have an extremely strange sense of "realism".

 

As for the rest of it, I think you just helped prove my point.  You don't want to PRACTICE to get good with what you have, you just want the Simulation to be EASIER.   And you are rationalizing that your shortcomings are not yours, but rather the shortcomings of your hardware, or the shortcomings of the game.   So, no, no don't bother troubling yourself with something like practice, just nag the developers to give you more options to make the game easier for you.   It's pretty clear.

 

One of the salient features that sticks out in this thread is how some people refuse to help themselves.  Have you considered moving your joystick to be more comfortable and functional?  No, gimme Offsets!  Have you considered getting a new joystick, if you think yours is so crappy?  No, gimme Offsets.  Have you considered practicing to get good with what you have?  Practice?  That's a waste of my time.  Just gimme Offsets.

 

At this point, it's actually starting to get a bit comical.

 

[SharpeXB]

27 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

Again, there is nothing "realistic" about having Otto help you hold your stick.  I don't recall reading where World War One planes had a Fly-By-Wire-ish Trim assist.  Either you are intentionally ignoring that, or you have an extremely strange sense of "realism".

 

As for the rest of it, I think you just helped prove my point.  You don't want to PRACTICE to get good with what you have, you just want the Simulation to be EASIER.   And you are rationalizing that your shortcomings are not yours, but rather the shortcomings of your hardware, or the shortcomings of the game.   So, no, no don't bother troubling yourself with something like practice, just nag the developers to give you more options to make the game easier for you.   It's pretty clear.

 

One of the salient features that sticks out in this thread is how some people refuse to help themselves.  Have you considered moving your joystick to be more comfortable and functional?  No, gimme Offsets!  Have you considered getting a new joystick, if you think yours is so crappy?  No, gimme Offsets.  Have you considered practicing to get good with what you have?  Practice?  That's a waste of my time.  Just gimme Offsets.

 

At this point, it's actually starting to get a bit comical.

 

I see now you’re just trying to handicap everyone else in the game to benefit yourself. That IS comical. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by SharpeXB

[Guest deleted@83466]

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I see now you’re just trying to handicap everyone else in the game to benefit yourself. That IS comical. 

 

Because telling people to quit making excuses and demanding easy-modes, but rather to get a setup that suits their needs and to practice practice practice is such bad advice....  Riiiiight...People are sure to be handicapped by that.

 

Almost time for a facepalm.

 

 

 

[CB77Don246]

This is a interesting posting this lot just for the record we are talking about a computer game are we not.

[Ehret]

4 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

Should I have to play against people who are using "Simplified Flight Controls"?  Who is trying to impose their preferences on whom, again?

 

And why should you care? If someone is flying using "simplified something" then it only means that person couldn't manage full controls (at least not now) thus has a handicap, anyway. To get everything from virtual crates one has to use the "manual", not "auto", and the difference is easy to spot in the combat.

 

Why to worry that much about causal flyers using some kind of helpers... are they that dangerous? The competitive ones will switch such stuff "off" as soon as possible because it inhibits performance. For "offsets" - it could be argued that changing your physical setup allows for higher stamina so the end result is similar - the ability to fly trim-less crate, effectively. I agree that the soft-way is kind of shortcut but we aren't pretending to be Olympic grade sportsmen, here? In fact, from the developer point of view we are all customers, only.

[Guest deleted@83466]

44 minutes ago, Plank said:

Changing the stick curve or stick bias or artificial trim or what ever is not going to actually make people play better. 

It will make them slightly less salty about their set up etc.

 

This is not so terrible a crime.

 

Regardless of your curve a Camel is a Camel is a Camel.

It will always have to be super careful at the end of the pitch curve

because of the way the Devs implemented it.

It's not REAL. It's an emulation.

They made it up to satisfy anecdotal evidence that can be widely interpreted...

 

Have you seen how a DR1 can correct itself under the most outrageous circumstances...

That has got to be the most unreal simulation I have ever seen bar none.

But hey it does keep the Central pilots happy, right.

They would NEVER complaint that it is unreal....

 

This discussion is not new it's not going to do anything and we have read it all before.

 

What would be really great is if we got REAL PILOTS like Kermit Weeks S! to take a look

at the FM's and tell us what he thinks.

 

That would kick arse. Totally.

 

Let people fiddle with their sticks, it's of small consequence. Get over it.

 

What we need is actual pilots actually flying the virtual planes and giving feed back.

 

and the N17 GBR gun shooting in the right blinking direction...

 

Salute!

 

Planky. ( Live from my bed I am still in it drinking coffee and wondering what life is all about...)

 

As usual, most of this is a case of too many words, not much substance, and a whole lot of irrelevant things.

 

You don't know what you're talking about when it comes to saying that an artificially trimmed aircraft doesn't allow people to be better than they were if they had to fly it without.  Trimmed aircraft are always easier to fly than untrimmed ones.  That's why they invented trim.   And I also know that you are one of the gamey-est, and (sorry to have to say it) one of the poorer performing pilots in the history of Rise of Flight, so I frankly don't place high credence to anything you have to say about what makes anyone better or not.  And I don't listen to arcade-style players when it comes to what kind of game assists I should tolerate other people having in mp, unless of course I choose to play on an arcade-style server.  And neither should anyone else.

 

As far as Kermit Weeks taking a look at FM's and telling us what he thinks...well we don't have Kermit Weeks yet, but we do have a Dr.I pilot who says that the aircraft wants to nose up and you have to apply forward stick pressure.  Anyone who thinks a simulation of the aircraft, in which undesirable flight tendencies are dampened by artificial trimming, is somehow more realistic and won't make a difference to someone's ability to fight with it, and shoot with it, must be living on a different planet.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Ehret said:

 

And why should you care? If someone is flying using "simplified something" then it only means that person couldn't manage full controls (at least not now) thus has a handicap, anyway. To get everything from virtual crates one has to use the "manual", not "auto", and the difference is easy to spot in the combat.

 

Why to worry that much about causal flyers using some kind of helpers... are they that dangerous? The competitive ones will switch such stuff "off" as soon as possible because it inhibits performance. For "offsets" - it could be argued that changing your physical setup allows for higher stamina so the end result is similar - the ability to fly trim-less crate, effectively. I agree that the soft-way is kind of shortcut but we aren't pretending to be Olympic grade sportsmen, here? In fact, from the developer point of view we are all customers, only.

 

With all due respect, you don't seem to understand multiplayer action very well.  My point of view has already been amply explained several times, and I'm not going to bother doing it again.

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[Ehret]

4 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

With all due respect, you don't seem to understand multiplayer action very well.  My point of view has already been amply explained several times, and I'm not going to bother doing it again.

 

I understand enough to be able to distinguish between the "full auto" 109 and the driver who is managing manual pitch and radiators in the same 109. In the latter case that's me who is getting shot down, usually.

[SharpeXB]

They’re never going to make this sort of setting a server filter so just forget about it.