Fokker DR1 forward stick to keep level..

[SharpeXB]

As much as I like reality, and I would really prefer to handle the planes in a correct way. That just isn’t possible with a game joystick. 

In racing sims I’ve got a nice ffb wheel and it’s amazing. Now that’s  a 100% real controller. It makes me wish there was something like that for flight sims but there’s not. Imagine driving your car with a 6” diameter steering wheel that doesn’t provide any feedback. Driving would be impossibly difficult. That’s what we have in flight sims, so there’s no “full real” control possible. 

Most of us probably don’t fly airplanes so it’s not quite understood. But we probably all drive cars. Try a racing sim with a ffb wheel and you immediately understand what’s missing in flight sims. 

 

777 did take the right approach. Make the sim response 1:1 and let the player dial it back as needed. There are players who do have full length or ffb sticks. 

But the default in the sim isn’t “real” anymore than it would be “real” to control your own car via remote webcam with a tiny plastic steering wheel and not feel any feedback. 

Edited October 6, 2018 by SharpeXB

[Guest deleted@83466]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

As much as I like reality, and I would really prefer to handle the planes in a correct way. That just isn’t possible with a game joystick. 

In racing sims I’ve got a nice ffb wheel and it’s amazing. Now that’s  a 100% real controller. It makes me wish there was something like that for flight sims but there’s not. Imagine driving your car with a 6” diameter steering wheel that doesn’t provide any feedback. Driving would be impossibly difficult. That’s what we have in flight sims. 

So there’s no “full real” control possible. 

 

The "correct way"?  Well, it's already been established that planes like the Dr.1 or Camel want to nose up. You don't have trim tabs or moveable stab to trim it out.  Inconvenient as it may be, you have to exert pressure on the stick to keep them going where you want them to go.  And so it is with the simulation.   That is the "correct" way.

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

The "correct way"?  Well, it's already been established that planes like the Dr.1 or Camel want to nose up. You don't have trim tabs or moveable stab to trim it out.  Inconvenient as it may be, you have to exert pressure on the stick to keep them going where you want them to go.  And so it is with the simulation.   That is the "correct" way.

Right. I agree with and understand that. But part of the reason you’re needing to hold the stick forward even more than normal in the sim is the stick is centered by spring pressure and not aerodynamically. 

The other part of the response tuning that’s needed is an “S” curve response to desensitize the short joystick. That’s needed and provided for now in IL-2. 

But without trim in WWI you can’t center the S on your neutral position unless you can shift the curve. That’s why the custom response menu is needed. Without that the WWI planes are impossibly and unrealistically sensitive. 

None of us can really say what “realistic” is but we can make the sim playable. If you can’t hit a balloon your stick is too sensitive. 

Edited October 6, 2018 by SharpeXB

[Guest deleted@83466]

Without trim tabs your stick isn't going to be centered "aerodynamically" unless you are at a very specific speed where the forces balance out.   So you need stick pressure in the real thing, and you need it in the sim, whether you have a spring centered stick, or whether you have a force feedback.  You guys want to eliminate the need for that stick pressure, because it's inconvenient to you.   It's uncomfortable for your wrist.  It's an ergonomic issue.  You guys are arguing about how awful it is to fly these planes using a "short" joysticks...but guess what...with a 75mm stick extension, I get a little more precision at the expense of having a greater "throw" and as a result have to hold the stick further forward and mount my joystick a lot lower than you do!  If you don't like a short joystick sitting on top of your desk, then you can get a longer joystick, or an extension, like I have, and you'll see how much this "problem" of having to exert stick pressure is solved by having a longer stick...it isn't.  And it isn't a "problem" after all...it's how the plane flies.  If somebody doesn't like how the plane flies, then maybe an aircraft without trim tabs isn't their thing.  There are about 40 aircraft in this simulation to choose from, most of which have trim, and from your gold bars, I see that you have them all.  Nobody is forced to fly a Dr.1 or a Camel, or any of the other upcoming historically tail heavy aircraft which don't have trim tabs.  I, myself, have found that I prefer to fly aircraft with trim tabs, or a moveable stabilizer.

Edited October 6, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[AndyJWest]

Here's the thing. I'm 61 years old, and my shoulder joints know it. Flying the FC Dr1 for any length of time on my standard Saitek stick isn't just 'uncomfortable', it is physically painful. Reducing the spring tension helps a bit. An extension probably would too, though the stick wasn't designed for it, and there isn't a practical way to use an extension anyway without the hardware to mount it on. Which would then take up space I haven't really got. I rarely participate in multiplayer, but if I did, I can see no particular reason why I shouldn't use whatever methods I choose to make the game playable for me. Not as long as other people are able to use whatever hardware they like. Which includes stick extensions. And joysticks with external trim functions. And software to emulate stick offsets. All these things exist. None of them can be detected by the server. If there was a server which specified a specific set of controllers, along with a specific PC spec, monitor etc, as needed for a truly equal 'e-sport', I'd have to accept that I couldn't use it. But meanwhile I see no reason to have my options limited by someone who insists that the only modification to the control setup that is acceptable is his own personal preference.

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by AndyJWest

[Guest deleted@83466]

36 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

But meanwhile I see no reason to have my options limited by someone who insists that the only modification to the control setup that is acceptable is his own personal preference.

 

 

So I guess my personal preferences or needs to not have control offsets are less important than the preferences or needs of those that desire it?.. And therefore, the developers should make a change...because the way that Il-2 has worked for years just now isn't convenient anymore now that they've introduced World War One aircraft which don't have trim? 

 

Honestly, I'm not opposed to the option for control offsets to be available, as long as they fall under the aegis of "Easy" settings, right alongside things like auto-radiators and auto-rudder, auto mixture, and rpm-overspeed protection.

 

That sucks about the arm.  I put my shoulder out somehow last summer.  Working the throttle was painful.  My fingertips were getting numb.  I would wake up in the middle of the night in pain.  I tried repositioning the throttle, but it still wasn't ideal.  Fortunately one day I was sitting there, and I heard a pop, and it all went back to normal, and I'm very thankful for that.  But while that was happening,  I tried to deal with it by changing my setup around.  We're all getting old, and I can certainly appreciate what it means to have an aching body that doesn't work as well as it used to..but with all due respect, it never occured to me that I should ask the developers to change the game to accomodate me.  If I were in your situation, I would just be inclined to fly a trimmable aircraft.

Edited October 6, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[AndyJWest]

18 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

So your personal preferences are more important than mine I guess, because you have needs that I don't have.  And therefore, the developers should make a change...because the way that Il-2 has worked for years just now isn't convenient anymore now that they've introduced World War One aircraft which don't have trim?

 

 

That sucks about the arm.  I put my shoulder out somehow last summer.  Working the throttle was painful.  My fingertips were getting numb.  I would wake up in the middle of the night in pain.  I tried repositioning the throttle, but it still wasn't ideal.  Fortunately one day I was sitting there, and I heard a pop, and it all went back to normal, and I'm very thankful for that.  But while that was happening,  I tried to deal with it by changing my setup around.  We're all getting old, and I can certainly appreciate what it means to have an aching body that doesn't work as well as it used to..but with all due respect, it never occured to me that I should ask the developers to change the game to accomodate me.

 

No, my needs aren't any more important than yours. And yours aren't any more important than mine. As for what the old IL-2 did, what the heck has that got to do with anything? I don't see anything on the sales pages that states that this is a 'IL-2 game from 2001' simulator. 

 

If the developers chose to add a response curve system like the one they put in RoF (which was widely used online), I will use it. If they don't, I will find another option (I may look at creating software myself, since the available options I've found so far aren't ideal). Because I can. And because I don't care if someone else thinks that their controller modifications are fine, but anyone else's are 'gamey'. Because their opinions are no more important than mine.

Edited October 6, 2018 by AndyJWest

[MeoW.Scharfi]

On 7/22/2018 at 9:50 AM, Tom25briklebritt said:

Is it realistic to that it needs such a  lot forward stick to keep level, the amount seems to be excessive. How do you deal with it? For me it is very hard to aim with forward stick.

 

It is, in a lot planes you have to put the stick forward for level flights. Most people tend to pull up while flying, especially in real life. Only because the flight stick is neutral, doesn't mean your flight position is.

[Guest deleted@83466]

9 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

 

No, my needs aren't any more important than yours. And yours aren't any more important than mine. As for what the old IL-2 did, what the heck has that got to do with anything? I don't see anything on the sales pages that states that this is a 'IL-2 game from 2001' simulator. 

 

If the developers chose to add a response curve system like the one the developers put  in RoF (which was widely used online), I will use it. If they don't, I will find another option (I may look at creating software myself, since the available options I've found so far aren't ideal). Because I can. And because I don't care if someone else thinks that their controller modifications are fine, but anyone else's are 'gamey'. Because their opinions are no more important than mine.

 

The "old" Il-2?

 

I'm talking about this Il-2.

 

And yes, as you say, if available, you'll use control offsets "because you can".  So I guess while I'm on multiplayer appreciating that I have to apply stick pressure, just like the real plane, but meanwhile hurting my wrist, and missing my shots on a high-speed bounce because I have to have the stick full forward, others should just be able to circumvent all that with what amounts to fake trim.

[AndyJWest]

10 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

The "old" Il-2?

 

I'm talking about this Il-2.

 

And yes, as you say, if available, you'll use control offsets "because you can".  So I guess while I'm on multiplayer appreciating that I have to apply stick pressure, just like the real plane, but meanwhile hurting my wrist, and missing my shots on a high-speed bounce because I have to have the stick full forward, others should just be able to circumvent all that with what amounts to fake trim.

 

Regardless of which IL-2 you are talking about, 'It hasn't been done that way so far' isn't much of an argument. Especially when the developers have already done it, in another game.  

 

And if you want to be uncomfortable while flying, fine. I suggest that for extra 'realism', you take a couple of teaspoons of castor oil before flight, turn  the air conditioning to -10°C, and set up an industrial-power fan to blow cold air in your face. Feel free to wear a thick coat, goggles, and gloves. And feel free to complain that everyone else is faking it...

Edited October 6, 2018 by AndyJWest

[SharpeXB]

SeaSerpent

I can see you don’t understand the issue so there’s no point in continuing to explain it. 

 

When you let go of a non ffb flight stick the force centering it is artificial from a spring. That’s not the real force that would be on it. Read APs post again. And if you want real control forces even with a ffb stick you aren’t applying the real 50 lb of force to pull out of a dive. Yes the WWI planes required a forward pressure but what you get in the sim is exaggerated.  

 

777 did not make custom responses server side in RoF so if 1CGS decides to do the same thing in IL-2 GB it’s unlikely they would do that. There is a response setting right now in IL-2 GB where you can adjust curves and that is not server side either. 

Players have a great variety of controls and what’s right or usable for one is not right for everyone. 

Edited October 6, 2018 by SharpeXB

[Guest deleted@83466]

58 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

 

Regardless of which IL-2 you are talking about, 'It hasn't been done that way so far' isn't much of an argument. Especially when the developers have already done it, in another game.  

 

And if you want to be uncomfortable while flying, fine. I suggest that for extra 'realism', you take a couple of teaspoons of castor oil before flight, turn  the air conditioning to -10°C, and set up an industrial-power fan to blow cold air in your face. Feel free to wear a thick coat, goggles, and gloves. And feel free to complain that everyone else is faking it...

 

Battle of Stalingrad came out almost 5 years ago, and it never had these things.  You fly the planes as they are.  Screaming earthward in a Bf-109 with your controls set in concrete you had better be in an optimal trim, because when the bandit pushes negative G's or breaks, you won't be able to follow.  Trimming the aircraft, and dealing with the consequences of being out of trim is part of the skillset of the game.  Well, a lot of World War One planes don't have trim, so they are --always-- out of trim, and that creates some difficulty in flying and fighting with them...What makes the World War One planes (and the ex Rise of Flighters who fly them) so special now that having to deal with the consequences of being out of trim, just like on any of the WW2 planes, is now something that needs an additional accomodation in Il-2 to ease the issue of controllability?  I'll say it again, if you don't like the way a plane without trim controls flies, then you just don't like the way the plane flies, so fly something else.  Maybe the World War one planes just aren't your thing.

 

And I'm not falling for the false dichotomy you set forth of things either being utterly, totally, real-to-life "realistic" or else I should just have to shut up and accept your unrealistic control offsets that save me the trouble of having to manhandle the plane around against it's natural tendencies.  It's like telling me that since I'm not willing to jump off a skyscraper when I crash, that I should just sit back and embrace any and every concession to gaming convenience because it will never really be a true "simulation" anyway.  It's a ridiculous logical fallacy.

 

38 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

SeaSerpent

I can see you don’t understand the issue so there’s no point in continuing to explain it. 

 

When you let go of a non ffb flight stick the force centering it is artificial from a spring. That’s not the real force that would be on it. Read APs post again. And if you want real control forces even with a ffb stick you aren’t applying the real 50 lb of force to pull out of a dive. 

 

777 did not make custom responses server side in RoF so if 1CGS decides to do the same thing in IL-2 GB it’s unlikely they would do that. There is a response setting right now in IL-2 GB where you can adjust curves and that is not server side either. 

Players have a great variety of controls and what’s right or usable for one is not right for everyone. 

 

I don't need anyone to explain this "problem" to me.  There is no problem.  The only problem I see here is some of you guys just can't stand flying an aircraft that is fighting your control inputs, and so you're pining for the "workaround" that was provided in Rise of Flight.  As I've said a million times I used those control offsets in Rise of Flight, and to put it quite simply, it made the aircraft easier to fly than not using them...easier, and certainly less realistic, regardless of what joystick someone is using.  But sure enough I used 'em, because a lot of other people were using them too.  As you yourself have pointed out, the control forces we fight with aren't anywhere near what they might be in a real aircraft in certain situations...but that's not good enough.  You want to be able to more or less eliminate some of those situations where stick pressure is needed entirely!   Fokker made the Dr.I.  Not Airbus.

Edited October 6, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[AndyJWest]

SeaSerpent, you have made your opinion perfectly clear. It however remains just your opinion. Which appears from this thread to be a minority one. Accordingly, unless the developers (or server providers, for multiplayer) state that using a stick offset mechanism (via software or hardware) is against the rules, I will reserve the right to use it. And I can't imagine the developers doing that, since they already made provision for it in Rise of Flight. I don't give a damn whether you think that people not conforming to your own arbitrary preferences (which include modifying a controller to suit your own personal needs, it should be noted) amounts to 'pining' for something or another. This is a game. Made for entertainment purposes. I don't consider physical pain to be entertainment. And I'm certainly not going to stop entertaining myself with the game because some random bloke on the internet thinks that people who can't play the game his way shouldn't play it at all.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

The only problem I see here is some of you guys just can't stand flying an aircraft that is fighting your control inputs, and so you're pining for the "workaround" that was provided in Rise of Flight.  As I've said a million times I used those control offsets in Rise of Flight, and to put it quite simply, it made the aircraft easier to fly than not using them...easier, and certainly less realistic, regardless of what joystick someone is using.  

I would actually like to set up the WWI aircraft to handle as realistic as is practical.  But there’s really no way for me to know what “real” is with regard to the stick position. It’s not the straight input from the game and it’s not my curve either. It’s somewhere in between.

You need to look at this part of the post

 

“Disadvantages for Solution A:

In this case, a PC joystick in the neutral position will correspond to some value aft of the deflection of the control column in the cockpit (for example, maximum elevator deflection angles for Fokker D.VII are 30 deg. up and 18 deg. down - so the neutral PC joystick position will correspond to 6 degrees up elevator deflection). This is different from Solutions B and C, where the neutral PC joystick position corresponds to the neutral control column position in the cockpit of the real aircraft (and therefore elevator position), and in accordance with fact 2.4, the solution A will cause airplane to settle down to the higher value of AoA compared to solutions B and C. And in the light of fact 2.6, the airplane will be trimmed to a slower airspeed than that of solutions B and C. In light of fact 2.7, with solution A the virtual airplane will require more forward PC joystick deflection for level compared to solutions B and C.“

 

So although WWI planes did require a forward pressure on the stick, the solution in the sim requires even more forward position than reality. 

Edited October 6, 2018 by SharpeXB

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, AndyJWest said:

SeaSerpent, you have made your opinion perfectly clear. It however remains just your opinion. Which appears from this thread to be a minority one. Accordingly, unless the developers (or server providers, for multiplayer) state that using a stick offset mechanism (via software or hardware) is against the rules, I will reserve the right to use it. And I can't imagine the developers doing that, since they already made provision for it in Rise of Flight. I don't give a damn whether you think that people not conforming to your own arbitrary preferences (which include modifying a controller to suit your own personal needs, it should be noted) amounts to 'pining' for something or another. This is a game. Made for entertainment purposes. I don't consider physical pain to be entertainment. And I'm certainly not going to stop entertaining myself with the game because some random bloke on the internet thinks that people who can't play the game his way shouldn't play it at all.

 

Well, what entertains me is combat flight simulation.  I don't want to just move a joystick around in some shoot-em-up game, I'm here for the simulation.  Within the limits of sitting at a desktop, I want to get a feel for what the real aircraft might have been like to fly in combat.  I want the control inputs to be as close as they can be to the real plane.  Some planes were easy to fly, and some were hard to fly.  All of them have quirks.  I want those quirks to come through in the simulation.  So I don't want offsets.   And like I said, I am completely certain that my gunnery and ability to control the plane on the edge benefitted from having this Assist in Rise of Flight, the price being that the sense of simulation was compromised.  So when I'm in a multiplayer environment, do I want the guy I'm fighting against having the computer helping him hold the stick around the center detent by artificially applying 20% down elevator, allowing him to line up on me with only small corrections?  No, I don't want that.  

 

If you think I'm "telling you how to play the game", perhaps you should take a look at what you're doing:  You're the one demanding a major change in the game to suit your own preferences...a function that has never been in this game in all the many years of it's existence.  The way it is now is the way that me, you, and everyone else has played this game for years.  This is not Rise of Flight.  This is Il-2, and Flying Circus is just a subset of it.  But hey, we got a DR.I now, and I don't like the way it flies, so lets change the control paradigm to make it just like Rise of Flight!!!!

 

Major problem I saw with Rise of Flight was there were far too many players who sought to dumb it down and make it airquakey.  I hope that doesn't happen to Il-2. 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

If not the ability to create custom response curves, the ability to assign sensitivity per aircraft would be nice. The issue with the stick position in the WWI planes is that it doesn't align with the sensitive curve created for trimmable aircraft. I would then rather fly the Dr.I without the sensitivity curve at all.

 

 

18 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

This is not Rise of Flight.  This is Il-2, and Flying Circus is just a subset of it.

This is the same company that made RoF... you know that right? ?

18 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 So when I'm in a multiplayer environment, do I want the guy I'm fighting against having the computer helping him hold the stick around the center detent by artificially applying 20% down elevator, allowing him to line up on me with only small corrections?  No, I don't want that.  

You can already create your own sensitivity curve in IL-2 so why would this matter? And you can't have very game setting a server filter. There are only 20-40 people who play this game at any one time online, you want them split up into different servers? 

Edited October 6, 2018 by SharpeXB

[Guest deleted@83466]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

 

This is the same company that made RoF... you know that right? ?

 

Yeah, I know that.  What makes you think I didn't know that???

 

IL-2 Great Battles works just fine, and it has for a long time.  We even have the I-16, and aircraft without adjustable trim tabs.  Ah, but now that Flying Circus is here, we gotta change the well-worn control scheme back to Rise of Flight, because...why?   I think it's an unwillingness for people to look at the ergonomics of their own joystick setup combined with an airplane which they want to like, but actually don't like, because it flies tail heavy.

[AndyJWest]

On 10/6/2018 at 3:02 PM, SeaSerpent said:

...

If you think I'm "telling you how to play the game", perhaps you should take a look at what you're doing:  You're the one demanding a major change in the game to suit your own preferences...a function that has never been in this game in all the many years of it's existence.

... 

 

That is an outright lie. At no time have I 'demanded' anything. I have expressed a preference, but made it clear that it is up to the developers what they do.

 

Welcome to my ignore list, [Edited].

 

Knock it off. That is not necessary.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Bearcat

[SharpeXB]

21 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

Yeah, I know that.  What makes you think I didn't know that???

Because you’re acting as if this system is completely outside the norm when it’s been part of this same company’s product for years. It’s not in the WWII era IL-2 game because those aircraft can be trimmed and the need for it isn’t as great. When FC is released I would fully expect the custom responses or something similar to be available. IL-2 BoS has the same level autopilot that was given as a solution to the pitch behavior in RoF. So why won’t it get the other solution as well?

29 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 I think it's an unwillingness for people to look at the ergonomics of their own joystick setup 

I think most players aren’t going to build a home cockpit with a full sized stick. 

And you keep acting as if the RoF solution is 100% accurate which it’s not. The disadvantage created by “Solution A” is what led to RoF getting the custom curve menu. 

Edited October 6, 2018 by SharpeXB

[BMA_Hellbender]

You can just throttle back a little bit, which should make flying in cruise/cruise-climb a lot more comfortable.

 

I know that given the current maximum airspeed of the Dr.I many feel the need to fly her with the throttle firewalled all the time, but in my humble opinion that's not how she was meant to be flown.

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, AndyJWest said:

 

 

Welcome to my ignore list,

 

Thank goodness.

 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Because you’re acting as if this system is completely outside the norm when it’s been part of this same company’s product for years. It’s not in the WWII era IL-2 game because those aircraft can be trimmed and the need for it isn’t as great. When FC is released I would fully expect the custom responses or something similar to be available. IL-2 BoS has the same level autopilot that was given as a solution to the pitch behavior in RoF. So why won’t it get the other solution as well?

Well, there ya go.  If your hand and arm are getting tired while cruising just use auto level.    The only reason to have offsets then is simply to make the plane easier and more controllable in combat, specifically when you are lining up on a target to shoot.  It helps when Otto is essentially helping you hold the stick, and all you have to do is make smallish corrections around the center detent.  It's much harder to make those corrections when your plane wants to deviate from the general attitude you want to have it in.  You have to admit how gamey that is, though.  And being able to nullify some of the advantages possesed by a trimmible aircraft (such as the Se-5) or an opponent that doesn't have those annoying tail-heavy quirks, just doesn't seem fair.  And heck, I don't even know what some of the WW2 crowd would do with this capability.  Probably would use the offsets to provide rudder input so that they don't need to remember to keep the ball centered during a high speed egress...something that can be the difference between life and death when you're in the 190A5 trying to outrun that La-5FN that's on your six.  Sometimes people fly poorly coordinated and you catch a plane that you couldn't catch otherwise.  Things like this would definitely change the game.

 

Quote

I think most players aren’t going to build a home cockpit with a full sized stick. 

 

I don't understand the false choice between full on home cockpit with a full sized stick versus being plagued with a bad setup that is actually causing physical pain.  I have a home cockpit now;  but it started out with my wrist getting achy and tired from having a Warthog joystick sitting on the desktop.  It was too high.  So I put it on a snack table that was much lower.  The snack table was wobbly.  So I weighted it down with a cinderblock.   I moved the monitors a little closer because I found I was leaning in to see the screen and giving me a stiff neck.  There are a lot of simple things that people can do to make their situation more comfortable.

Edited October 6, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

44 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

I don't understand the false choice between full on home cockpit with a full sized stick 

Because the whole joystick response / pitch issue is a result of using spring centered tabletop joysticks. Honestly is seems you still haven’t read or understand the explaination from 777 above. The only controller that would actually alleviate this would be a full length force feedback stick which the majority of players do not have. 

You are the only person who seems to have a problem with the custom response menu. I’ve never seen anybody else in RoF complain about this. 

54 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

And heck, I don't even know what some of the WW2 crowd would do with this capability.  Probably would use the offsets to provide rudder input so that they don't need to remember to keep the ball centered during a high speed egress...

Fixing a bias into your rudder axis inputs would create more problems than it solves. So who cares if somebody wants to screw up their controls. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Because the whole joystick response / pitch issue is a result of using spring centered tabletop joysticks. Honestly is seems you still haven’t read or understand the explaination from 777 above. The only controller that would actually alleviate this would be a full length force feedback stick which the majority of players do not have. 

You are the only person who seems to have a problem with the custom response menu. I’ve never seen anybody else in RoF complain about this. 

Fixing a bias into your rudder axis inputs would create more problems than it solves. So who cares if somebody wants to screw up their controls. 

 

I don't have a problem with a customized response menu, as in you can set your curves up on a plane by plane basis.  Knock yourself out with S curves all you like, even though they really aren't all that necessary...we aren't hovering a chopper here.  I have a problem with Offsets....Fake Control inputs.  I understand fully the "problem" of how the flatter part of your S curve that would provide increased sensitivity is not in the position where you typically have to hold your stick, far forward to cancel out the tail heaviness.  The "problem" only exists because you are using an S curve in the first place.  The reality of the situation is that S curves themselves are a compromise, the price you pay for not being satisfied with the precision that a common joystick gives you, but trying to provide an addional compromise on top of that with the addition of fake control inputs to hide some of the unpleasant tendencies of the aircraft is not a good solution.  The solution is to go linear and learn the motor skills to fly the aircraft with the joystick you have: Most of the guys I know in Rise of Flight didn't bother with either Offsets or S curves, not because they were being purists in avoiding fake control inputs, but because their control was good enough as it was, using some pretty common and bland joysticks...They had used similar spring centered joysticks all their life to control aircraft in flight sims, and they didn't need anything special to accomodate them.  If their hand got tired, they made sure the joystick was somewhere where having to push it forward and inch or two during cruise didn't hurt them.   Offsets are a radical solution to a "problem" that really isn't that much of a problem to most people and they introduce the kind of additional issues I've already explained about a million times.  Don't try to argue with me that because short sticks with springs aren't as precise or as realistic as a real control stick that it's necessary to provide a method to simply cancel out the need for the pilot to provide a control input in the first place.   That's lame.  It certainly doesn't bring us closer to realism in any convincing way.  And hey, if all this really is such a problem for someone, they go get a high end joystick with a larger throw or large extension.  Flight Sim has never been egalitarian when it comes to computer hardware, and nobody should expect it to be.    BTW, how many times do I need to tell you that I'm fine with you having your control offsets, as long as they are understood to be "easy" settings, along with a lot of other easy settings and therefore excludable on servers with full difficulty settings?

 

 

Edited October 7, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

Most people find sim aircraft excessively sensitive using a small joystick. That makes sense. The only solution other than extending the stick is a sensitivity curve. And the only way to make the sensitivity curve work on a non trimmable plane is to offset it. The pitch center is already biased by the spring anyways so you’re not 100% correct without the offset. 

This setting is never going to be made a server filter so you might as well forget it. 

Edited October 7, 2018 by SharpeXB

[Guest deleted@83466]

52 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Most people find sim aircraft excessively sensitive using a small joystick. That makes sense. The only solution other than extending the stick is a sensitivity curve. And the only way to make the sensitivity curve work on a non trimmable plane is to offset it. The pitch center is already biased by the spring anyways so you’re not 100% correct without the bias. 

This setting is never going to be made a server filter so you might as well forget it. 

 

Well, then I hope it never gets implemented.  In fact, in terms of forgetting things, I would forget control offsets, because I really doubt the developers want to implement them.  I could be wrong, in which case you'll be a very happy man, but this isn't a function that I would get too excited about.

 

I have crappy monitors that really don't have enough contrast.  I have problems spotting things against the trees.  Should we lobby the server operators to allow Icons because my monitors aren't cutting it anymore compared to people who have $1000 gaming monitors? Of course not.  If I don't have a trackIR should they let me (and therefore everyone else) use Padlock and external views?  Who has the advantage then?  

 

 As I said, almost all of the people I knew in RoF (except me) used pure linear, non-offset controls.  I think "Most" people get used to the sensitivity of a standard joystick and it isn't a problem.  Heck, I'll bet there are even people out there who would prefer a smaller joystick with a shorter throw precisely because they don't need to have to throw their joystick 3 inches in one direction to roll the plane and would prefer to only move it a smidge.  

 

My point is people in MP shouldn't have to fly and fight against people whose plane is artificially easier to fly just because they were dissatisfied with their control setup, and thought they deserved a workaround.  Using a common joystick just doesn't strike me as the problem you're making it, and certainly not one demanding of an overhaul of the existing control calibration scheme.  Making a simulation less realistic because you feel like your joystick isn't realistic enough seems like a case of the cure being worse than the disease itself.   Besides, wouldn't you imagine that the "feel" of these simulated aircraft and their control responses are designed with a standard run-of-the-mill joystick in mind, as the majority of the customers have, or do you think they optimized it only for guys with Warthogs and a 10 inch extension?  But I guess all my points are in vain with you...I expect your mind is set, just as mine is

Edited October 7, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

58 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

Besides, wouldn't you imagine that the "feel" of these simulated aircraft and their control responses are designed with a standard run-of-the-mill joystick in mind, as the majority of the customers have, or do you think they optimized it only for guys with Warthogs and a 10 inch extension?  

The sim is designed as AP explains in that post. The response default is 100% forward and back = 100% of the real control motion. It is not optimized for anything. That makes sense really. It’s better for the player to decide how to adapt it to their hardware rather than 777 try to guess what that is.

58 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

My point is people in MP shouldn't have to fly and fight against people whose plane is artificially easier to fly just because they were dissatisfied with their control setup, and thought they deserved a workaround.  

There aren’t enough players online in these sims to allow that many choices. At its height RoF only had maybe 40 players online at any one time. 

58 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

Making a simulation less realistic because you feel like your joystick isn't realistic enough seems like a case of the cure being worse than the disease itself.  

The typical tabletop joystick is not realistic. That should be clear from the explaination. So using the straight response is not either. Again you’re just not reading or understanding the explaination posted. As far as I know every flight sim has a sensitivity curve adjustment for this reason. 

The custom adjustments can be useful for axis controls unrelated to flight too. DCS has a menu like that which is really useful. There are many things you can assign axis to that potentially need adjustments. 

Edited October 7, 2018 by SharpeXB

[Guest deleted@83466]

You've convinced yourself that a typical flight stick is totally inadequate for simulation like RoF/FC unless there is a bunch of extra stuff built into the sim.  I disagree, and though a run-of-the-mill stick is certainly not perfect, it's certainly not the disaster you make it to be.  You must not care much about simulation realism, because the offset solution very clearly makes controlling the aircraft far less true to reality than any of the problems you percieve are caused by a short-throw, spring centered joystick in the first place.  You just want ease of operation.  So whatever, dude.  All I can say is that I hope I never see a return to the ability to impose RoF style offsets in a Full Dificulty multiplayer server.  I think I'm done here because I've already repeated almost every point about half a dozen times already.

Edited October 7, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

45 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

You've convinced yourself that a typical flight stick is totally inadequate for simulation like RoF/FC unless there is a bunch of extra stuff built into the sim.

I’m not saying it’s totally inadequate. I’m just referring to what 777s own lead engineer says about its behavior and shortcomings. 

47 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

All I can say is that I hope I never see a return to the ability to impose RoF style offsets in a Full Dificulty multiplayer server.

My guess is you’ll see the same or similar settings available in Flying Circus when it’s more developed. 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

SeaSerpent:

 

Against joystick offsets that would make aircraft more comfortable to fly for those with cheap setups.

 

Also SeaSerpent:

 

Fine with making aircraft more comfortable to fly using setups most people can't afford.

 

?

Edited October 7, 2018 by hrafnkolbrandr

[Zooropa_Fly]

7 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

 I've already repeated almost every point about half a dozen times already.

 

Not like you .

 

I'm flying RoF without curves now and most planes I've barely noticed the difference.

The Camel on the other hand I'm struggling with.

I have a virpil stick with 5" of extension, and the Camel's nose plunges towards the ground at the slightest twitch of a stick forward movement.

You end up bouncing a bit as you get it back under control.. not good for aiming !

I think DVII (not f) is similar.

 

One thing to remember is that, apparently, the vast majority of customers don't indulge in MP.

So the game's not going to be specifically tailored to MP wishes.

[Guest deleted@83466]

6 hours ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

SeaSerpent:

 

Against joystick offsets that would make aircraft more comfortable to fly for those with cheap setups.

 

Also SeaSerpent:

 

Fine with making aircraft more comfortable to fly using setups most people can't afford.

 

?

 

Oh, rich versus poor, huh? ? Just like a lot of people, I flew RoF and quite a lot of other sims for quite a long time with nothing but a cheap joystick with no curves, and no offsets.   I eventually started using offsets in RoF because in multiplayer I didn't feel I should be flying around in a tail-heavy plane while some subset of others were simply able to zero that out and essentially fly a simplified aircraft.  So I used them.  It had nothing to do with some perceived sense of my inexpensive logitech joystick being inadequate, not precise enough, or not comfortable enough.  It was fine.  Only bought a Warthog eventually, because I wanted a dedicated controller for the A-10C in DCS.

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[LeLv76_Erkki]

Its possible to remove the centering spring(s) on some sticks. The downside is that then one cannot let go of the stick at any time.... or some kind of support is needed if one need to take a break.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

6 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

Oh, rich versus poor, huh? ? Just like a lot of people, I flew RoF and quite a lot of other sims for quite a long time with nothing but a cheap joystick with no curves, and no offsets.   I eventually started using offsets in RoF because in multiplayer I didn't feel I should be flying around in a tail-heavy plane while some subset of others were simply able to zero that out and essentially fly a simplified aircraft.  So I used them.  It had nothing to do with some perceived sense of my inexpensive logitech joystick being inadequate, not precise enough, or not comfortable enough.  It was fine.  Only bought a Warthog eventually, because I wanted a dedicated controller for the A-10C in DCS.

 

 

 

 

The point is that the result is essentially the same.  The only difference is that the ability to set curves or offsets is open to anyone.

 

Some twist-stick pleb modifying his offset to make the plane more manageable for long periods of time doesn't affect you in the least.  The planes can do what they can do, and no amount of offsets or curves change that.  Even your claim that an offset makes gunnery easier is a joke.  Nobody fires from a neutral stick, ever.  They will always have pressure somewhere.  Whether that pressure is at 10% or 40% is irrelevant.

 

You rail on about "simulation";  Did you use Teamspeak in Rise of Flight?

[SharpeXB]

6 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

 It had nothing to do with some perceived sense of my inexpensive logitech joystick being inadequate, not precise enough, or not comfortable enough.  It was fine. 

Using a flight sim joystick is like driving your real world car by remote via a webcam where you can’t feel anything it’s doing, with sight as your only sensory feedback. And controlling it with a small 6” plastic steering wheel, with no force feedback and a spring that artificially returns it to center. 

So yeah joysticks are rather inadequate. Hence all the adjustments necessary. Non adjusting the stick isn’t giving you 100% real either. 

I wish there were controls for flight sims equal to what you can get for racing. But there really aren’t. Nobody makes FFB sticks anymore. A racing wheel, since it’s bolted to a tabletop, can have its FFB dialed up to 100%  the gearing in it is all steel and can feed back a lot of force. To get the real force back through a flight stick it would have be steel and bolted down into a concrete floor. The jumpy nature of flight sim planes is due to the short stick and lack of force. A small touch to you stick makes the plane wobble but in reality a pilot would not have the strength to easily make such inputs. That’s why players use input curves to desensitize the controls. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

4 hours ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

The point is that the result is essentially the same.  The only difference is that the ability to set curves or offsets is open to anyone.

 

Some twist-stick pleb modifying his offset to make the plane more manageable for long periods of time doesn't affect you in the least.  The planes can do what they can do, and no amount of offsets or curves change that.  Even your claim that an offset makes gunnery easier is a joke.  Nobody fires from a neutral stick, ever.  They will always have pressure somewhere.  Whether that pressure is at 10% or 40% is irrelevant.

 

You rail on about "simulation";  Did you use Teamspeak in Rise of Flight?

 

Your statements are just simply wrong.  If my plane is well trimmed out, and she wants to fly straight and true, then my gunnery is going to be easier than if my plane wants to veer off and I have to fight the tendency.  The less tendency to veer away, the better.  You bet 10% is better than 40%!!!!  It's a no-brainer.  Claiming that having a computerized helping hand dampening your plane's historically accurate tendencies to veer away doesn't help you in Rise of Flight just isn't correct. After many thousands of hours in RoF and other flight sims, and having seen how offsets in RoF essentially dumbed down the control requirements so that the plane was easier to fly, it's pretty clear. 

 

And let me tell you why I used Teamspeak in Rise of Flight.  For the same reason I used offsets: Others were using it.  I started out not using comms, because they didn't have comms in WW 1.  After a little while of playing though, I realized that flying alone against squadrons of people on comms who could coordinate their tactics against a lone aircraft was a real competitive disadvantage in multiplayer servers where squads were present.   I got sick of getting my butt whipped.  So, just like offsets, my desire for competetive equity in MP led me to get to know other players and use Teamspeak, knowing full well that this wasn't realistic for WW 1.  Eventually some of my skills improved, and being solo became less of a problem, and even preferred it sometimes, but the fact is TS is a reality that is here to stay,.  Offsets, on the other hand,  don't need to be an unchangeable reality in this sim...the situation of some using them, getting the benefit of faux trim, flying against purists who realize how unrealistic it is, doesn't need to happen.

 

@Plank:  Too long, didn't read most of it, but the camel was historically a real pain to fly.   Recently read a flight report from the Vintage aviator about the Camel, and the real thing sounds like a nightmare compared to what we've got in RoF, no matter what your calibration settings are. 

Edited October 7, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

^ You are the only person I’ve ever seen with such a rant about the response menu. In all the years I spent on RoF

Just be ready for this menu to appear in FC for the same reason and by the same people and asked for by the same players as RoF

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

You are not getting any more or less  control authority, range of motion, or anything else.  Any difference in gunnery that you feel is quite simply in your head.  You know damn well that they don't do anything that the pilot couldn't do by just holding the stick in place by themselves.  All the offset does is add a bit of comfort when flying for prolonged periods.

 

You've gone to lengths to make doing so easier for yourself.  Do you feel that you have some sort of unfair advantage due to your setup?

 

I don't use Teamspeak, and I don't mind that others do at all.  It simply doesn't effect me that much.  You will not give it up though, because in your heart of hearts, you know it gives you  an advantage; the same advantage that your cockpit gives you when offsets are off the table.  My Challenge to you, Mr. Simulationist;  When FC releases, swear off Teamspeak.  It's as unneccessary as offsets, and doesn't do anything you can't also do with the in-game chat.  Don't worry about what others are doing.  Fly in the most simulationist way possible; and if you can't do that, stop complaining about other pilots having options to simulate the advantages that your cockpit gives you, and which don't effect you in the slightest.

Edited October 7, 2018 by hrafnkolbrandr

[AndyJWest]

The thing is, you don't need extra software to offset a joystick. You don't need hardware either. All you need to do is to use the stock Windows calibration software. If you want  a 'down elevator' neutral, just hold in the opposite amount of 'up elevator' on the stick when you set the 'neutral' position. Not very accurate, and a pain to do if you want different settings for different aircraft, because you have to do it before you start FC (re-calibrating while it is running has no effect) but it works. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

^ You are the only person I’ve ever seen with such a rant about the response menu. In all the years I spent on RoF

Just be ready for this menu to appear in FC for the same reason and by the same people and asked for by the same players as RoF

 

No rants here.  Just trying to push back against a very persistent lobbying effort to dumb down the game.  It's been like that in all Flight Sims really.  You always have the crowd of casual gamers coming in trying to make things easier, at the expense of simulation.

 

58 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

Offsets are not 'trim'.  You are not getting any more or less  ontrol authority, range of motion, or anything else.  Any difference in gunnery that you feel is quite simply in your head.  You know damn well that they don't do anything that the pilot couldn't do by just holding the stick in place by themselves.  All the offset does is add a bit of comfort when flying for prolonged periods.

 

You've gone to lengths to make doing so easier for yourself.  Do you feel that you have some sort of unfair advantage due to your setup?

 

My challenge to you, Mr. Simulationist.  When FC releases, swear off Teamspeak.  Don't worry about what others are doing.  Fly in the most simulationist way possible; and if you can't do that, stop complaining about other pilots having options to simulate the advantages that your cockpit gives you, and which don't effect you in the slightest.

 

Wrong.  Being able to bias your controls so that you need little or no stick pressure is just like having a trim tab, albeit not a dynamic one.  Given that most people flew at one throttle setting in RoF (full throttle) and the envelope of those planes aren't that great anyway, having Otto hold the stick for you, at constant X percent down elevator was always "better" than not.

 

As far as my cockpit setup goes, I don't know how much if any it benefits me in MP.  Probably not as much as you think.  You would think that the 3 screens would make me a master spotter...but they don't.  I fly with a lot of people and my spotting is actually less than most of them.  And like I said, having used an inexpensive joystick before, I can tell you that benefit of the Warthog joystick with 75mm extension really didn't make that much of a difference in terms of the precision of flying fixed wing aircraft (it did with helicopter hovering in DCS, but that's a more specialized situation, and the only reason I got an extension).  In a lot of ways the Warthog was more cumbersome and harder to use than the previous inexpensive joystick, because it had a really stiff spring, and was simply too high to sit on my desktop, even without the extension.  It was the Warthog that was hurting my wrist, not the previous Logitech attack!  Crosswind pedals are cool, but they too made little difference.  My best performance in RoF was with very old and loose Saitek pedals, and when those were on the verge of death, I bought the Crosswinds.  None of these things even did a fraction as much for making planes easier to fly and fight with in RoF than me selling out, and using Offsets!  Not even close.  The idea that some guy with a Logitech Attack and Saitek pedals has no choice but to impose curves and fly easy-mode with offsets to be competitive with the guy who has an extended Warthog is just simply not true.  I think lots of Flight Simmers who built home cockpits will agree that those cockpits, while being a labor of love, and pretty cool, admit that they didn't really do too much to make them ace pilots.

 

As far as TS goes, like I said it's here to stay.  I got to the point where I could fly completely solo and get kills, but when my buddies were on, I ended up flying with them, and had fun with that too.  My reasons for using it in FC would be exactly the same as it was in RoF.

 

Using red herrings, or trying to make this discussion about some kind of perceived hypocrisy, or about Class Warfare, is not going to distract from the utter unrealistic-ness of Offsets.  Whatever I've done to create my home cockpit made the sim more realistic, not less realistic.  Others can do the same, and if their $20 twist stick joystick isn't cutting it for them, not my problem.  Flight Sim is niche hobby and it generally isn't for casual gamers who aren't willing to step up and get the control hardware that suits their needs to meet the demands of the sim they are trying to play.  And that hardware doesn't necessarily need to be Uber or cost a fortune.  I believe it's the players responsibility to get what they need and set things up for success, not the developers responsibility to provide endless assists and aids to accomodate them.

Edited October 8, 2018 by SeaSerpent

[SharpeXB]

31 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

No rants here.  Just trying to push back against a very persistent effort to dumb down the game.  It's been like that in all Flight Sims really.  You always have the crowd of casual gamers coming in trying to make things easier, and

Making things harder than reality isn’t making them realistic. Without a sensitivity adjustment you’re making the aircraft much more unstable than they really are/were. IL-2 GB already has this adjustment in the game. In order to adapt that setting to non trimmable planes they’re going to add this menu from RoF. It’s fairly certain.