Bullet proof canvas

[HagarTheHorrible]

Jason mentioned in the Dev update discussion that the "small detail" of bullet calculations was to do with WW1 crates.

 

Is it perhaps a resolution of the bullet proof  canvas issue ?

[LukeFF]

The canvas is not bulletproof. Please do not start spreading false information. What you're seeing is the visual effect of bullets hitting canvas not having been updated yet.

[OrLoK]

the planes *do* feel they soak up damage (in comparison to the ww2 craft)but atm (afaik) it's just a visual FX that's not quite right.

 

I don't mind it as I can see my hits. I'll be sad if it goes!

Edited July 18, 2018 by OrLoK
stuff

[HagarTheHorrible]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

The canvas is not bulletproof. Please do not start spreading false information. What you're seeing is the visual effect of bullets hitting canvas not having been updated yet.

 

Maybe I mis-remember but was there not an issue with the two seater gunners, in RoF, only being able to be shot in the part of the body sticking outside the aircraft ?

 

If that wasn't the case then I apologize.

 

[Feathered_IV]

2 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Jason mentioned in the Dev update discussion that the "small detail" of bullet calculations was to do with WW1 crates.

 

Is it perhaps a resolution of the bullet proof  canvas issue ?

 

The bulletproof name is misleading, but if I recall what it attempted to describe was the bullet touching the "canvas" (another misleading name) and doing all it's damage there.  The rest of the bullet's real-life path through the airframe, pilot or other vitals was not calculated after the initial contact. 

[HagarTheHorrible]

10 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

The bulletproof name is misleading, but if I recall what it attempted to describe was the bullet touching the "canvas" (another misleading name) and doing all it's damage there.  The rest of the bullet's real-life path through the airframe, pilot or other vitals was not calculated after the initial contact. 

 

Whatever it might be termed as it seems to have much the same effect if penetration beyond the initial contact is not calculated.  I can't imagine this is the case in BoX though, given that it's rare to find anybody sitting outside a WW2 crate.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Canvas maybe bulletproof but sparas are not  BTW I have nice boomstick ? 

 

 

[OrLoK]

56 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

 

Whatever it might be termed as it seems to have much the same effect if penetration beyond the initial contact is not calculated.  I can't imagine this is the case in BoX though, given that it's rare to find anybody sitting outside a WW2 crate.

afaik internal bullet path is calculated in BoX

 

I could be wrong!

[BeastyBaiter]

You are not wrong. Both Rof and BoX have calculated bullet path. I'm having no troubles killing pilots by shooting them through the fuselage from behind. The main thing is you can't be absolutely dead six, since there are too many plywood ribs to go through in that case. But if you offset slightly so you can bypass the tail feathers, the bullets will go right through all the way up to the pilot. As with RoF and BoX, it takes several pilot hits to kill them.

[LukeFF]

One of my first impressions during beta testing was how much more easy it is to kill pilots in FC as compared to ROF. It's a very nice feature to have.

[migmadmarine]

Yea, I've been noticing that too, virtually all the kills in the dogfights I've run were pilot or engine kills, rather than removing wings, which I recall being a long lamented problem in ROF. (also amusing to try to chase down and kill Ju-52s in a Spad. XD

[angus26]

6 minutes ago, thenorm said:

Yea, I've been noticing that too, virtually all the kills in the dogfights I've run were pilot or engine kills, rather than removing wings, which I recall being a long lamented problem in ROF. (also amusing to try to chase down and kill Ju-52s in a Spad. XD

Can you catch up with them at all? 

[migmadmarine]

12 minutes ago, angus26 said:

Can you catch up with them at all? 

In a straight line, level flight, nope. 

[angus26]

34 minutes ago, thenorm said:

In a straight line, level flight, nope. 

I guess for once the thing has somewhat of an upper hand when it comes to speed for once. Never thought I’d talk about the Ju-52 in that way...

[migmadmarine]

I know, surreal feeling, isn't it. Also I learned the hard way that those M4 quad maxim mounts are terrifying in a WWI aircraft. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by thenorm

[unreasonable]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

One of my first impressions during beta testing was how much more easy it is to kill pilots in FC as compared to ROF. It's a very nice feature to have.

 

Just tested that myself and I agree. It is harder to test systematically without either upwards firing Lewis or rear mounted guns, but shooting from below and behind at a friendly SPAD flying towards a priority waypoint in the ME   I was able to kill the pilot with a few bursts: fairly certain that this was not a hit that did not got through the fuselage.  This was impossible in RoF where you could fly under a plane and Lewis gun up through the fuselage at a pilot or gunner and nothing would happen until the fuselage went banana shaped.

 

This was one of my main gripes about RoF and I am very pleased to see the change. It will be interesting to see how the MP community reacts. With a much tighter dispersion pattern than vanilla RoF and much more vulnerable pilots the emphasis is going to be on positioning to make that first attack count - in SP as well - and I would expect most fights to be short. Scouts should now have a chance to down 2-seaters in one pass if they can get a burst into the cockpit area: something almost impossible in RoF unless you were lucky enough to get a flamer.

 

Bought FC to support Jason but was a bit unsure how it would turn out: feeling very happy about my purchase now. All I have to do is improve my health and drinking habits so that I can live long enough to see a fully developed FC SP game.....  

 

 

[angus26]

45 minutes ago, thenorm said:

I know, surreal feeling, isn't it. Also I learned the hard way that those M4 quad maxim mounts are terrifying in a WWI aircraft. 

I bet!

[BeastyBaiter]

22 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

 

Just tested that myself and I agree. It is harder to test systematically without either upwards firing Lewis or rear mounted guns, but shooting from below and behind at a friendly SPAD flying towards a priority waypoint in the ME   I was able to kill the pilot with a few bursts: fairly certain that this was not a hit that did not got through the fuselage.  This was impossible in RoF where you could fly under a plane and Lewis gun up through the fuselage at a pilot or gunner and nothing would happen until the fuselage went banana shaped.

 

This was one of my main gripes about RoF and I am very pleased to see the change. It will be interesting to see how the MP community reacts. With a much tighter dispersion pattern than vanilla RoF and much more vulnerable pilots the emphasis is going to be on positioning to make that first attack count - in SP as well - and I would expect most fights to be short. Scouts should now have a chance to down 2-seaters in one pass if they can get a burst into the cockpit area: something almost impossible in RoF unless you were lucky enough to get a flamer.

 

Bought FC to support Jason but was a bit unsure how it would turn out: feeling very happy about my purchase now. All I have to do is improve my health and drinking habits so that I can live long enough to see a fully developed FC SP game.....  

 

 

 

If I'm remembering correctly, RoF originally had much more accurate guns. But they were given a lot more scattering at some point after the initial release. Not sure on the reasoning, but I do kinda remember lasering people down at obscene ranges early on.

[HagarTheHorrible]

1 minute ago, BeastyBaiter said:

 

If I'm remembering correctly, RoF originally had much more accurate guns. But they were given a lot more scattering at some point after the initial release. Not sure on the reasoning, but I do kinda remember lasering people down at obscene ranges early on.

 

If I remember correctly, it was to try and overcome a problem with long range sniping during tail chases.

[ZachariasX]

16 minutes ago, BeastyBaiter said:

 

If I'm remembering correctly, RoF originally had much more accurate guns. But they were given a lot more scattering at some point after the initial release. Not sure on the reasoning, but I do kinda remember lasering people down at obscene ranges early on.

In the beginning, guns fired straight (no drop) and absolutely accurate. Very, very long range sniping was commonplace. You could zap the other at >500 meters. Worse than that, this worked with gunners as well. This turned two seaters and especially the HP400 and the Gotha into veritable death stars. Not having to reload as well worsened that situation considerably.

 

There was a need to introduce a mechanism that required closer distance for shooting as it was the case back then in WWI. The DM was of course a main culpit as well, as in reality only hits on specific smaller part of the aircraft lead to catastrophic damage, whereas the DM has larger hitboxes.

 

Adding big scatter was the makeshift solution for this and it serves the purpose, despite of course having side effects as well.

[303_Bies]

Ability to the kill pilot easier than in ROF would be great, i have to admit i didn't test this yesterday.

In ROF it felt so unnatural not being able to reliably kill the pilot in canvas covered frame.

Edited July 19, 2018 by bies

[unreasonable]

I might try to test this issue using the pistol to kill a pilot in a plane on the ground by shooting through the side of the fuselage.  In RoF I could only do this with a headshot - as in "Semper Fly", the definitive account of the US air service in WW1. 

 

Then again with so many keen new players around I think I will let someone else do the work....

[J2_Jakob]

5 hours ago, unreasonable said:

This was impossible in RoF where you could fly under a plane and Lewis gun up through the fuselage at a pilot or gunner and nothing would happen until the fuselage went banana shaped.

 

That's weird. I remember one of my kills in the latest Bloody April tournament. I was flying an SE5, flew under DFW's belly, tilted the gun and killed the pilot through the fuselage. I believe the reduced lethality mod was incorporated into the required mod-pack.

Edited July 19, 2018 by J2_Jakob

[unreasonable]

8 minutes ago, J2_Jakob said:

 

That's weird. I remember one of my kills in the latest Bloody April tournament. I was flying an SE5, flew under DFW's belly, tilted the gun and killed the pilot through the fuselage. I believe the reduced lethality mod was incorporated into the required mod-pack.

 

Reduced lethality mod increased the strength of wings so that they took far more hits to remove. That made aiming at the cockpit-engine area comparatively more productive, which was a  good thing,  but did not change the problem of the fuselage hit box absorbing bullets.

 

What I think was happening is that there was a pilot hit box and a fuselage hot box: imagine an orange (pilot) placed at one end of a shoe box (fuselage).  The cockpit walls around the orange are purely graphical, just not there in the DM.  If you fired from certain angles from the side or below it was possible to hit the orange but from most rear angles the view of the orange is obscured by the shoe box, which absorbed the shots.  The head - a golf ball on the orange  - was the only vulnerable spot from most rear angles. So hits on the pilot happened only about 10-20% as often as they should.

 

This explanation may be a simplification, but I tested this with the ME firing drums and drums of ammo up through the floor of "friendly" planes, but eventually gave up raising the issue as work on RoF had obviously stopped.

[J2_Jakob]

@unreasonable: mhm, understood. I haven't tested the subject thoroughly, only saw that it can be done (apparently only under specific circumstances). Thx for info!

[J2_Trupobaw]

8 hours ago, BeastyBaiter said:

You are not wrong. Both Rof and BoX have calculated bullet path. I'm having no troubles killing pilots by shooting them through the fuselage from behind. The main thing is you can't be absolutely dead six, since there are too many plywood ribs to go through in that case. But if you offset slightly so you can bypass the tail feathers, the bullets will go right through all the way up to the pilot. As with RoF and BoX, it takes several pilot hits to kill them.

This appears to be true. I have learned to sideslip in RoF  from targets dead 6 to 5:30-5 o'clock, and shoot pilot/engine comparement through the sides of fuselage. I get result as long as I don't shoot through tail assembly.

[unreasonable]

15 minutes ago, LsV_Trupobaw said:

This appears to be true. I have learned to sideslip in RoF  from targets dead 6 to 5:30-5 o'clock, and shoot pilot/engine comparement through the sides of fuselage. I get result as long as I don't shoot through tail assembly.

 

Impossible to tell for sure in the game (RoF), but I think you might just be getting a non-tracer headshot if you get a PK in this scenario, especially if you are in a vanilla dispersion game. The engine hit box is reachable from the rear - presumably it is as wide as the fuselage so any angle off will give you a direct line to it, but the pilot hitbox is smaller so you would need a very significant angle off to get a direct line: except to the head.

 

I always found that making my point of aim from 5 o'clock such that it would intersect the pilot's body was a waste of time: you could put dozens of bullets into the fuselage (with the reduced dispersion) on a direct line to the body and nothing would happen. A single headshot and down they go, or aim well forwards and get the engine. 

 

Anyway, FC looks to have improved on this, hurrah!

[SCG_Space_Ghost]

15 hours ago, OrLoK said:

the planes *do* feel they soak up damage (in comparison to the ww2 craft)but atm (afaik) it's just a visual FX that's not quite right.

 

I don't mind it as I can see my hits. I'll be sad if it goes!

 

If you really emphasize placing your shots it seems like I'm getting PK's frequently and per expectations.

 

I wouldn't expect LMG ammunition to cause catastrophic damage and past the WWII-style impact effects I'm pretty comfortable with how the DM is working so far.

 

10 hours ago, LukeFF said:

One of my first impressions during beta testing was how much more easy it is to kill pilots in FC as compared to ROF. It's a very nice feature to have.

 

Seconded - I know from a "gameplay" angle this can be undesirable for some players but I think the FC/WWI DM should reflect how inefficient canvas is at stopping bullets and how soft and squishy the human body is.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Space_Ghost

[Garven]

The hot fix at least to me seems to have made shooting wings off easier than killing the pilot.

[unreasonable]

On 7/19/2018 at 6:27 PM, J2_Trupobaw said:

This appears to be true. I have learned to sideslip in RoF  from targets dead 6 to 5:30-5 o'clock, and shoot pilot/engine comparement through the sides of fuselage. I get result as long as I don't shoot through tail assembly.

 

3 hours ago, US103_Furlow said:

The hot fix at least to me seems to have made shooting wings off easier than killing the pilot.

 

Relevant to this: I have not tested the tweaked DM in battle, but I have in a test mission in which I have six friendly SPADS on which to experiment.  

 

In test one I shot down all them by killing the pilot from almost dead six o'clock with between one and three one second bursts: so I am sure that neither the fuselage not the tail boxes are blocking the bullets - or at least not all of them.

 

What is true is that when on occasion I was a little off and hit the wing root, a wing came off. I am unsure about this: these planes are set up to fly straight towards a WP so are under no excess Gs. I think the DM tweak may have been a mistake: not sure why they did it. 

 

Here is FC Test in case anyone else wants to kill helpless SPADS.  

FC Test.zip

 

Just now, unreasonable said:

How does on eget rid of unwanted quote boxes like this one?

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by unreasonable

[Zooropa_Fly]

My limited experience so far tells me you can't hit the pilot through the side of the fuselage.

Any pilot hits for six I suspect are bullets lobbed onto the pilots' head, I've managed that a couple of times !

[Cynic_Al]

On 7/18/2018 at 10:13 PM, LukeFF said:

The canvas is not bulletproof. Please do not start spreading false information. What you're seeing is the visual effect of bullets hitting canvas not having been updated yet.

 

 

No problem, just don't let them mess with the bullet dispersion, or if they can't resist it, give the so called 'improved' option and don't class it as an aid.

[unreasonable]

The handgun damage is obviously bugged by a factor of 100 at least.  See the video in the main update thread. It looks to me like someone has put a decimal place in the wrong place, or just left one out altogether. I am sure that will get adjusted very soon.

 

40 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

My limited experience so far tells me you can't hit the pilot through the side of the fuselage.

Any pilot hits for six I suspect are bullets lobbed onto the pilots' head, I've managed that a couple of times !

 

You can certainly kill pilots through the side of the fuselage with the Luger! Just done it to a row of Dr.1s...  but that may possibly be because the angle is sufficiently from the side that it is missing the fuselage hit box. Hard to test with the Dr.1 and SPAD because the view is so poor.  Once we get a rear gunner some of these tests will be much easier.

 

Meanwhile the only 100% proof that pilots can be killed through the structure would be a rear up and under attack firing at about 45 degrees that kills the pilot: much easier to do with a top wing Lewis.