Finkeren Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 Just now, InProgress said: Yeah, kuban has really cool cutscenes. I hope for pacific art works will be balanced, small thing but it would be really cool to watch some Japanese glory moments as well. I’m sure it will. Probably even will for BoBP.
CrazyDuck Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) To the OP: All these "feelings", "impressions" and "beliefs" aren't going to get us anywhere. It's not so hard to set up a clean, static experiment where everything (environment, target, positions...) is identical with the only parameter varying is the cannon. Count number of hits needed to do a specific damage on the same target with different cannons. Make statistic, show the results. Edited July 17, 2018 by CrazyDuck
unreasonable Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 27 minutes ago, CrazyDuck said: To the OP: All these "feelings", "impressions" and "beliefs" aren't going to get us anywhere. It's not so hard to set up a clean, static experiment where everything (environment, target, positions...) is identical with the only parameter varying is the cannon. Count number of hits needed to do a specific damage on the same target with different cannons. Make statistic, show the results. I agree, but this has already done very thoroughly: see thread linked earlier. The Soviet HE shell and the German HE shell perform almost identically in terms of damage caused, on average. The problem for the OP and those that think similarly is that until we have some real life tests with which we can compare in game tests, we have no basis for saying that the 151/20 mineshell is under-performing. All we have is some assumptions about the effects of blast vs fragmentation etc all of which are contestable. 2
Yogiflight Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 17 minutes ago, unreasonable said: 55 minutes ago, CrazyDuck said: To the OP: All these "feelings", "impressions" and "beliefs" aren't going to get us anywhere. It's not so hard to set up a clean, static experiment where everything (environment, target, positions...) is identical with the only parameter varying is the cannon. Count number of hits needed to do a specific damage on the same target with different cannons. Make statistic, show the results. I agree, but this has already done very thoroughly: see thread linked earlier. The Soviet HE shell and the German HE shell perform almost identically in terms of damage caused, on average. The problem for the OP and those that think similarly is that until we have some real life tests with which we can compare in game tests, we have no basis for saying that the 151/20 mineshell is under-performing. All we have is some assumptions about the effects of blast vs fragmentation etc all of which are contestable. Another problem is, what specific damage are you expecting to get? If it is ripping off wings, I have to say, I very much doubt, this is done by the HE shells, but by the AP shells. And here is your problem, you can't shoot the MG151/20 without AP rounds, therefore it is hard to compare both weapons. We know the mineshells are not modelled the way they worked, it is just a workaround. Do I think the MG151/20 is not as good as it should be? Yes, but not that much, that it really would be an issue. On the other side, the MG131 seems a bit OP, like all machineguns, so look forward to BoBP. All german fighters will have the 13mm MGs.
=EXPEND=13SchwarzeHand Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 51 minutes ago, unreasonable said: The problem for the OP and those that think similarly is that until we have some real life tests with which we can compare in game tests, we have no basis for saying that the 151/20 mineshell is under-performing. All we have is some assumptions about the effects of blast vs fragmentation etc all of which are contestable. I agree that it is a problem. But from a scientific standpoint or reasonable standpoint in general, if you cannot get real data you take the next best approximate thing. And Ivy already cited one of the most popular sources that back his theory with scientific considerations. This source as well as many others strongly contradict the results that he got from his test. So the general take away from Ivy‘s test isn’t that he is saying that any type of ammo should be exactly this or that way, but rather that all sources contradict the game‘s current representation of them. Edited July 17, 2018 by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn 2
[I./JG62]steppa Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) Quote cannon against Ju 88s and one of them managed to shrug off 8 hits(most in tail) without more than fuel leaks and some missing control surfaces. I had a similar incident in a QMB once, where i landed only 4 108 hits on a A20 vertical stab. and rudder above the top line of the fuselage from dead 6. Somehow the "blast pressure" didn´t damage the control surfaces (he continued to manoeuvre) but hit both engines badly (white and black smoke,no fuel vapor, left one critically hit). I would like our men of wisdom on horseback to enlighten me on how that is possible with a real shell and why it should be in the game. It seems to me that the raw damage isn´t really the problem but its consistency and authenticity. If you don´t pray to 30mm minen- RNGesus much, you may have tough luck. Or severely damage him anyway like i did. I would have prefered the "rudder gets blown off" option over the "maybe random shrapnel hits the engine" one. A wonderful day to you all! Edited July 17, 2018 by [I./JG62]steppa
Operatsiya_Ivy Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 51 minutes ago, unreasonable said: The problem for the OP and those that think similarly is that until we have some real life tests with which we can compare in game tests, we have no basis for saying that the 151/20 mineshell is under-performing. All we have is some assumptions about the effects of blast vs fragmentation etc all of which are contestable. Following your argumentation, how did the devs decide how to value each shell? As far as i can tell there is no consistency when it comes to the results, where it would be possible to conclude that the devs valued for example fragmentation higher than blast effects. 27 minutes ago, Yogiflight said: Another problem is, what specific damage are you expecting to get? If it is ripping off wings, I have to say, I very much doubt, this is done by the HE shells, but by the AP shells. And here is your problem, you can't shoot the MG151/20 without AP rounds, therefore it is hard to compare both weapons. We know the mineshells are not modelled the way they worked, it is just a workaround. Do I think the MG151/20 is not as good as it should be? Yes, but not that much, that it really would be an issue. On the other side, the MG131 seems a bit OP, like all machineguns, so look forward to BoBP. All german fighters will have the 13mm MGs. In the conducted test the game was modified so that you only shoot 20mm HE shells. 1
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