Spitfire brakes differential

[suhast222]

Hello in your oppinion what is more accurate to the real airplane for the brake lever in the Spitfire and other RAF airplanes a button? 0-100% brake or an axis that lets an  intermediate braking effect. I know in il2 you can technically assign an axis to the wheel brakes and then the rudder makes the differential effect, but bein air compressed I suppose the real pilot Brake lever Was not designed to apply constanly an intermediate brake action, I think it was a pressing for full braking and then the pressura builds, when the lever is depressed it comes to 0%. What do you think?

[dburne]

I like using my paddle on my Virpil or VKB ( axis ) for the Spitfire breaks as well as the Yak.

 

[Sokol1]

1 hour ago, suhast222 said:

 I know in il2 you can technically assign an axis to the wheel brakes and then the rudder makes the differential effect, but bein air compressed I suppose the real pilot Brake lever Was not designed to apply constanly an intermediate brake action, I think it was a pressing for full braking and then the pressura builds, when the lever is depressed it comes to 0%. What do you think?

 

Good question, Yak-1 (differential) brake valves drawings suggest that air pressure are OFF or ON over wheels:

 

https://s8.postimg.cc/k8k7ccpg5/Yak-1_brakes2.jpg

 

Open the air valve 50% will only retard a bit the full pressure of air reservoir to be applied over wheels brakes, not apply only 50% of pressure. Then the (real) system seems have little of "analog" operation.

 

Time ago are a Hurricane in cockpit video in Youtube - now removed due copyright, that show pilot using brake lever as "ON/OFF", "typing" on brake lever constantly, not pressing and holding the lever.

 

In games most player use the more convenient operation,  even Spitfire brakes in right/left brakes on rudder pedals - e.g. in DCS, CloD, in BoX the native "differential" brakes for all planes - even Bf 109, P-40, P-39... prevents this "exploit".

 

 

 

 

 

 

[suhast222]

21 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

In games most player use the more convenient operation,  even Spitfire brakes in right/left brakes on rudder pedals - e.g. in DCS, CloD, in BoX the native "differential" brakes for all planes - even Bf 109, P-40, P-39... prevents this "exploit".

Are you saying that german planes in Box use the differential braking and not the toe braking or both methods?

[Talon_]

"Strength of application is delivered by the hand lever on the grip."
https://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/supermarine-spitfire-134209906/#6t98VrwVm4GVuHGJ.99

 

The lever was designed to work like a bicycle brake of the time for familiarisation. Remember bicycle brakes were well-known and understood, while toe-operated controls would have been new to most fighter pilots who would most likely not have a drivers license.

[Sokol1]

4 hours ago, suhast222 said:

Are you saying that german planes in Box use the differential braking and not the toe braking or both methods?

 

In Bo'X German planes (and american planes) use both methods.

 

 

[-TBC-AeroAce]

8 hours ago, Talon_ said:

"Strength of application is delivered by the hand lever on the grip."
https://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/supermarine-spitfire-134209906/#6t98VrwVm4GVuHGJ.99

 

The lever was designed to work like a bicycle brake of the time for familiarisation. Remember bicycle brakes were well-known and understood, while toe-operated controls would have been new to most fighter pilots who would most likely not have a drivers license.

 

Hmm that makes sense. 

[LeeHarvey]

In the Spitfire, can you operate the left and right brakes independently of each other? I have keys assigned to each, but they don't seem to work. All I can do is apply both simultaneously.

Edited July 17, 2018 by LeeHarvey

[-TBC-AeroAce]

12 minutes ago, LeeHarvey said:

In the Spitfire, can you operate the left and right brakes independently of each other? I have keys assigned to each, but they don't seem to work. All I can do is apply both simultaneously.

 

Yes you can but it by applying rudder.

[HBPencil]

16 minutes ago, LeeHarvey said:

In the Spitfire, can you operate the left and right brakes independently of each other? I have keys assigned to each, but they don't seem to work. All I can do is apply both simultaneously.

The Spit's brakes are differential, they're linked to the rudder so if you apply the brakes (one button, default / iirc) while the rudder is centered then both wheels get the same amount of braking, however if you apply right rudder then the right wheel receives more braking than the left. On the instrument panel is a gauge which shows pneumatic pressure and also how much each wheel is getting when the brakes are applied.

Edited July 17, 2018 by HBPencil

[LeeHarvey]

Ok. I use the gauge during rollout after landing to watch the brake pressure being applied, that's how I noticed (or thought I did) that the brakes weren't being applied independently when I would use them individually. 

 

So, would you recommend I assign them to my rudder controls so that they are automatically applied? How will it effect take-off if I do considering the use of the rudder needed to counteract the torque of the prop. I usually don't adjust the trim, holding the aircraft on course with the rudder manually.

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

No you a sign the brake control (not left brake or right brake) to a axis or button.

[poppywarrent]

I can see where the paddle on the Virpil would be perfect because its variable control and returns to zero.  Anyone have any ideas on how to do this with the Thrustmaster T16000?  I tried the rudder paddles on the throttle unit.  I provides variable output but doesn't go to zero and the brakes are 50% on all the time when the control is centered.  I changed the deadband from 0 to 100% and it's better but the brakes are still on 25% all the time when the control is centered.

[Toots_LeGuerre]

Concerning Spitfire brakes:

One of the Spitfire pilots who flew in the 1968 BoB film, said to me, "You make a series of quick inputs with the brake lever, then quickly release. You don't want to hold the lever down or over on the nose you go--even with the notoriously bad Spitfire brakes."

Grass is the way to slow a Spitfire, though the brakes are essential when taxiing.

 

I took my tailwheel training in a 1954 Super Cub with original 1954 brakes.

"Stand on them to your hearts content, you'll never nose over," said my instructor.

Then the owner changed the brakes to modern brakes.

My instructor said, "Stay off the brakes. They'll flip you now. We'll land in the grass alongside the runway."

Which we did, I got my endorsement, and off I went.

Six months later, in the area, I pulled in to the flight school office to se how things were going.

"The Cub is upside down in hangar," I was told. "It'll fly again. But never for training."

"Brakes?"

"Yep, someone stood on them."

[Soilworker]

On 1/30/2022 at 6:28 PM, poppywarrent said:

I can see where the paddle on the Virpil would be perfect because its variable control and returns to zero.  Anyone have any ideas on how to do this with the Thrustmaster T16000?  I tried the rudder paddles on the throttle unit.  I provides variable output but doesn't go to zero and the brakes are 50% on all the time when the control is centered.  I changed the deadband from 0 to 100% and it's better but the brakes are still on 25% all the time when the control is centered.

 

I used a button for a few years before building my own brake lever to mount to my extended G940 stick, while it is a definite improvement I wouldn't regard it as necessary as the brakes in IL-2 are rather nerfed and you'll (probably) never nose-over while jamming them on full with a button. 

 

(Devs, could we please have a realism option for realistic breaking?) 

[Jaegermeister]

I'm not seeing a reference to what Mark of Spitfire you are flying, but in general it is much better to taxi the Spit by steering with power and rudder than trying to use the brakes to steer. That's a great way to ground loop.