What's your opinion on Navigation Lights?

[Y-29.Silky]

Not talking about taking off or landing which is where I use them..

 

This happened more than once but  tonight I lost it aside from the fact that it was 30 Germans vs 10 Russians. I  dive on a German, he then turns on his navigation lights and how cliche, there's 2 Me-109's diving on me. I bail out because if he wants to use his lights to call in his boyfriends because they can't identify an enemy, I'll play Apples to Oranges and bail out because like hell if I"m going to be their cannonfodder that they didn't even earn. Then there was about 12 virtual Hartmanns saying I was the bad guy because using your navigation lights to identify friendlies is not a dick move. There's some players I know calling me an idiot who had no idea wtf was happening, I'll remember that.

 

In the end if you have to use navigation lights so your wingman can identify an enemy on your 6, in what is supposed to be a flight simulator, along with those who defend those who use navigation lights  when an enemy is on their 6 ..... 

You guys are right, this isn't 1946 where it is a bannable offence, so please defend your point here?

Edited July 14, 2018 by Y-29.Silky

[Legioneod]

13 minutes ago, Y-29.Silky said:

Not talking about taking off or landing which is where I use them..

 

This happened more than once but  tonight I lost it aside from the fact that it was 30 Germans vs 10 Russians. I  dive on a German, he then turns on his navigation lights and how cliche, there's 2 Me-109's diving on me. I bail out because if he wants to use his lights to call in his boyfriends because they can't identify an enemy, I'll play Apples to Oranges and bail out because like hell if I"m going to be their cannonfodder that they didn't even earn. Then there was about 12 virtual Hartmanns saying I was the bad guy because using your navigation lights to identify friendlies is not a dick move. There's some players I know calling me an idiot who had no idea wtf was happening, I'll remember that.

 

In the end if you have to use navigation lights so your wingman can identify an enemy on your 6, in what is supposed to be a flight simulator, along with those who defend those who use navigation lights  when an enemy is on their 6 ..... 

You guys are right, this isn't 1946 where it is a bannable offence, so please defend your point here?

 

Doesn't really bother me much. I don't use them in flight but I don't care much that others use them, its not going to affect my attack or defense in any way.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Legioneod

[TWC_Ace]

Some ppl here will tel you its all ok nav lights were there in RL. Yeah, but in RL you couldnt see them from the other side of the map and in combination with TS its an ultimate (though legitimate) way to "cheat".

Now....

[Garven]

It's not something to turn chat into a distracting ****show over.

[Feathered_IV]

Bailing out sounds like a good idea.  If it catches on it teaches the Butt Hurtmanns to play nice and stop gaming the game with the usual bs excuses (see below). 

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

In mp nav lights in combat is gaming the system.  Even when not in combat we use a wing waggle for ID purposes.  We only use navs around airfields.  That being said, in certain servers we know it is to be expected.

[Talisman]

Hate nav lights as they are too bright and can be seen from too far away in daylight, IMHO.  Same over-bright nav lights for most WWII simulations unfortunately, although there is a combat flight sim that has no nav lights provided for any aircraft and people have flown it for years with no problems, so I would be happy to see nav lights deleted as a combat zone option for BoX.  I don't use mine and don't think I have a key bind for them as I have deleted default keys and use my own.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

Edited July 14, 2018 by 56RAF_Talisman

[NO_SQDeriku777]

6 hours ago, Y-29.Silky said:

Not talking about taking off or landing which is where I use them..

 

This happened more than once but  tonight I lost it aside from the fact that it was 30 Germans vs 10 Russians. I  dive on a German, he then turns on his navigation lights and how cliche, there's 2 Me-109's diving on me. I bail out because if he wants to use his lights to call in his boyfriends because they can't identify an enemy, I'll play Apples to Oranges and bail out because like hell if I"m going to be their cannonfodder that they didn't even earn. Then there was about 12 virtual Hartmanns saying I was the bad guy because using your navigation lights to identify friendlies is not a dick move. There's some players I know calling me an idiot who had no idea wtf was happening, I'll remember that.

 

In the end if you have to use navigation lights so your wingman can identify an enemy on your 6, in what is supposed to be a flight simulator, along with those who defend those who use navigation lights  when an enemy is on their 6 ..... 

You guys are right, this isn't 1946 where it is a bannable offence, so please defend your point here?

if this is communication is to get around the very real limitations of in-game comms no biggie.  If these guys were flying together in Teamspeak they would have had no trouble coordinating and you would have been shot down anyway. It is GAMEY, but then Teamspeak is even more GAMEY, with players able to communicate with players anywhere on the map despite not being in the same squadron, flight, location, etc.   The Teamstacking is the real issue.  When you are flying out numbered against a much larger group of people flying and communicating in coordinated fashion ( either via TS or primitive Nav Light signaling) you are going to be screwed no matter what you do.

Edited July 14, 2018 by NO_SQDeriku777

[DD_Perfesser]

If someone is trying to help I much prefer telling him "I'm flashing nav lights " rather than "never mind, I'm the one on fire".

Edited July 14, 2018 by DD_Perfesser

[NO_SQDeriku777]

I would really like to fly a COOP mission with simulated realistic early war comms.  Using the TS realistic radio Plugin Only the flight leader can talk and the other flight members have to use wing waggles/flares for the duration of the mission.   I think it would be quite an experience.

Having said all, that people who keep their landing lights for extended periods of time to keep others from IDing them because the light blurs to plane outline can go to hell.  My policy is to always shoot at planes I can't ID running landing lights well outside of airfield landing patterns.  Since I am such a lousy shot I rarely have friendly fire issues.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

15 hours ago, blackram said:

Some ppl here will tel you its all ok nav lights were there in RL. Yeah, but in RL you couldnt see them from the other side of the map and in combination with TS its an ultimate (though legitimate) way to "cheat".

Now....

Ingame you can only see nav lights from 10Km or same range as planes render ?


Also Most players turn on nav lights so team mates can find them, not to help ID an enemy ? .
Its easier to find someone running tree top asking for cover when they turn on lights.

Bailing out when you loose advantage is always a low class move reserved for stat padders and those who think its offense to them personally if they shot down.

 

[ZachariasX]

It woukd be good if nav lights had in daylight a slightly reduced render distance. Other than that, they are doing as they should.

 

In combat, I usually disengage if the guy ahead of me turns on the nav lights. It also makes only sense to do so over crowded objectives (or if you bring friends and TS) and there will be another occasion to shoot one in the back. It‘s just a matter of flying/gaming style. If they bail out fine. But as long as they are not out yet, they are game when you see the aircraft not really being damaged. 

[CountZero]

Game alowes for this gamy behavior by making nav lights visable like serch lights from 10km on day, if they are done correctly it would not be abused like it is by some gamers, offten on WoL i see this lights flashing when im on 6 of enemy and i know that hes asking for help that way so usealy i then say to my wingman to turn on his lights to confuse flashers.

 

 

good thig clod dont have nav light it was nice to play there without this gamy stuff, to bad it exists here.

 

[ZachariasX]

Navigation lights are *intended* to make the plane visible. It appears to e that they share some game mechanics with tge tracers that can also be seen over many kilometers (as they sould be!) and therfore be excessively "bright".

 

But in the midst of a furball over a defended objective such as on WoL, nav lights for sure should be such that they can be used as they are in the game. If it wasn't like that, you can just pop some bullets and your TS buddies identify you equally quick.

 

In fact, the nav lights currently help you to level the field a bit for lone wolfers (like me) versus TS gangs. In hot zones, you can attract a lot of friends like this once you realize that a gang TS has made you out. Without the nav lights, it is a pointless enterprise to evade well coordinated attacks. but having them, the situation might change drastically in a short time. Without the nav lights, you are nothing but lone fodder.

 

 

[TWC_Ace]

On 7/14/2018 at 4:24 PM, DD_Perfesser said:

If someone is trying to help I much prefer telling him "I'm flashing nav lights " rather than "never mind, I'm the one on fire".

Then we really shouldnt be caring about any realism, flight models, damage models..we can just play some arcadish crap with planes...

Edited July 16, 2018 by blackram

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

What do we simulate, what dont we simulate,
What do we restrict, what do we allow.

Should they also model pilot health so late war german pilots are weak from hunger and lack of training for Hitler youth pilots. ? ?
Should they also simulate random mechanical failures properly. random tyre blow outs resulting in lost plane and sortie even tho perfect landing.
What about random fuel fires on startup which kills your pilot in stats before sortie even started.
 

[Pict]

On 7/16/2018 at 2:32 PM, =TBAS=Sshadow14 said:

What do we simulate, what dont we simulate,
What do we restrict, what do we allow.

 

That's a good question...to which I think I may have an answer  (no guarantees to please though)

 

If the techno chat was an option that could be turned off at the server level, see here for as much info as you may ever need as to why this would be a good idea 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/37905-thread-concerning-an-option-to-turn-off-the-“technochat”-in-realism-menu-by-server-administrator/?tab=comments#comment-640192

 

...I would expect the on-liners who prefer a less "gamey" experience, would gravitate towards the servers who turned off the technochat. Equally, those who play in a "gamey" fashion would be likely to avoid such servers and many of the problems that come from mixing these two very different styles of online flying would soon evaporate.

 

I might be wrong though  

Edited October 18, 2018 by Pict

[Talisman]

Well, I did say in June 2013 that nav lights would not be a good idea.

 

 

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[Herne]

15 hours ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

Well, I did say in June 2013 that nav lights would not be a good idea.

 

 

•  

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't really have an opinion about Nav lights in combat, but I am grateful that we have them, and that many people use them around the airfield while landing or taking off.

Also flares would be every bit as useful for someone trying to get their friends attention while in TS.

[Cybermat47]

Flares would seem to be a more realistic and less controversial alternative.

[[PFR]Sarpalaxan]

And jet we still have the lights but somehow they have turned off the Aerobatic Smoke in MP wich is in no way able to hurt pvp due to planes carrying it loosing all Amunition and gave us a Nice way to fly in formation.

[Psyrion]

I don't see anything wrong with nav lights. Flashing them makes you stand out to everyone, not just your team mate.

[Requiem]

Navigation lights should essentially be invisible in daytime as you will never see them, so it would be nice if they could be adjusted. When I'm pre-flighting an airplane during the day to check the nav lights I need to be right up close to them and will sometimes actually cup the top of the light with my hand to provide some shadow to verify they are on and working properly.

 

In game they can be used to call people to help you of course, but there have been times when I've been by myself and had someone on my tail so I flashed my lights in a deliberate sequence to fool them a bit. This was followed by a quick maneuver to escape out of sight as I assumed immediately after I flashed them the guy after me would have been looking for my "friends" who were never there to begin with.

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

On 7/17/2018 at 9:26 PM, Sarpalaxan said:

And jet we still have the lights but somehow they have turned off the Aerobatic Smoke in MP wich is in no way able to hurt pvp due to planes carrying it loosing all Amunition and gave us a Nice way to fly in formation.

AFAIK Smoke is only disabled in server side settings and yes it can hurt PVP play
Huge amount of fps Lag and packets going and coming from server.
So if you see player on your 6 has any lag at all turn on smoke and game will be near unplayable for him, jump on his six and he dead.

As for the lights themselves, i agree that during daytime they could be adjust maybe not removed completely as we dont have ATC to guide planes to land and so on,
But like 50% light reduction in daytime.
Also if you turn off Bloom in cofig file the lights look less "gamey"

 

[JG1_Vonrd]

How do you turn smoke on Server side? I would like to use it for training on our server. If it makes it unplayable... so be it. Nevertheless, I would like to give it a try.

[Ehret]

Just assume that the flashing plane is a bait.

 

I don't agree with the sentiment of turning everything off in the name of realism. You can not fool (should not) self that it isn't a computer game. Some hints are needed and forcing to looking at gauges wouldn't be too realistic, either. IRL the pilot can feel G-forces and doesn't need to look at the bank and turn indicator. IRL one can feel engine vibrations, smell stuff, has distinct feedback when interacting with levers and wheels. We don't have anything like that in the sim and making the virtual pilot even more sensory deprived would be just backward.

[ZachariasX]

2 hours ago, Ehret said:

IRL the pilot can feel G-forces and doesn't need to look at the bank and turn indicator. 

Why do you think they still put those gauges there on the dashboard?

 

But it is true, a real aircraft can give you lots of cues. But many of then can be introduced in a sim, like sounds and vibrations. But it is a lot of work and you should have the real aircraft at hand to record those cues.

[9./JG27golani79]

On 7/14/2018 at 9:33 AM, Y-29.Silky said:

Not talking about taking off or landing which is where I use them..

 

This happened more than once but  tonight I lost it aside from the fact that it was 30 Germans vs 10 Russians. I  dive on a German, he then turns on his navigation lights and how cliche, there's 2 Me-109's diving on me. I bail out because if he wants to use his lights to call in his boyfriends because they can't identify an enemy, I'll play Apples to Oranges and bail out because like hell if I"m going to be their cannonfodder that they didn't even earn. Then there was about 12 virtual Hartmanns saying I was the bad guy because using your navigation lights to identify friendlies is not a dick move. There's some players I know calling me an idiot who had no idea wtf was happening, I'll remember that.

 

In the end if you have to use navigation lights so your wingman can identify an enemy on your 6, in what is supposed to be a flight simulator, along with those who defend those who use navigation lights  when an enemy is on their 6 ..... 

You guys are right, this isn't 1946 where it is a bannable offence, so please defend your point here?

 

Although this being a rather old post - this happens on both sides.

Have seen this "tactic" on VVS side for god knows how often as well.

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

I never realized how gamey it is and that it pissed people off, I always took it as a sign to hurry up and turn the guys lights off for him and check 6 often.  I kinda feel bad cuz I had my new wingman do it yesterday but that was the 1st time I abused it.  I think it's kinda a double edge sword though, having both advantages and disadvantages.  I will try to refrain from doing it after we get a little more experience flying together (I always flew alone, he has a little dcs experience with a wingman) but personally it wont bother me unless stated in the server rules.