Playing with no Tracking device...

[Guest deleted@50488]

Well,

 

I keep following the thread and all of your suggestions.

 

I will check some of the alternative ( free and payware ) tracking solutions mentioned and will report back my findings and eventually my choice.

 

My other flight simulator doesn't depend at all of head tracking - Aerowinx PSX - so, IL-2 is actually the only victim so far, but as I posted above, I am getting used to the hat switch in my TS16000 :-)

 

Again a BIG THANKS to all of you offering your thoughts and sharing your experience - this is what I call a "Great User Community" !

[-TBC-AeroAce]

Once you go track you won't go back.

[Guest deleted@50488]

37 minutes ago, AeroAce said:

Once you go track you won't go back.

 

What do they say about VR ?   

 

Once you go VR.... ( ? )   Maybe... "you start seeing things as they are …." ?   ( but VR not an option for me - old system and old guy here... and bigger hobby €€ has to go for soaring … )

Edited July 11, 2018 by jcomm-in-combat

[1./KG4_OldJames]

https://goo.gl/RiQMJD

 

Declan clip on eBay. ..there are cheaper ones

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by 1./KG4_OldJames
Spelling (darn autocucumber)

[JonRedcorn]

What's funny is I kind of starting using head tracking at the same time as I started using VR, and I dropped head tracking like a sack of potatoes. I know you are on a budget, but it's just next level entertainment. Makes playing flight sims trivial on a 2d screen. Putting that headset on, you get to step INTO the plane. You are stepping back in time to the 1940's, strapped into your advanced state of the art airframe, ready to take on the AXIS menace. It's worth every penny.

 

 

[Psyrion]

7 hours ago, AeroAce said:

Once you go track you won't go back.

Is Headtracking really that much more immersive?

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

42 minutes ago, =FEW=Psyrion said:

Is Headtracking really that much more immersive?

It’s not really about the immersion, at least for me. Head tracking feels very unnatural initially as you have to turn your head while staring at a fixed monitor.

 

However, head tracking does give you fast, precise view control and the freedom to use yoir hand for other important functions.

 

I won’t go back not due to immersion, but because head tracking makes it easier to fly effectively.

[ACG_daffy_]

I started using my mouse last Christmas  (the tree lights kept messing with my TIR)  Haven't looked back since.  I did have to get rid of the throttle, but mapped it, and rpm and mix and rads bla bla bl to a gaming mouse.  I can look around a lot better than I could with the tir, and just kind of got used to it.  Use it for DCS, IL2, ROF and try to do it with CoDblitz, but it's a little more work there.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

Then you get to 1:1 tracking in VR. Very hard to go back to a non 1:1 tracking setup. No over correction, no deadzones or sensitivity issues on any axis. 

 

But a much greater physical workload. 

Be prepared to sweat and strain during intense dogfights.

[ZachariasX]

5 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

It’s not really about the immersion, at least for me. Head tracking feels very unnatural initially as you have to turn your head while staring at a fixed monitor.

 

However, head tracking does give you fast, precise view control and the freedom to use yoir hand for other important functions.

 

I won’t go back not due to immersion, but because head tracking makes it easier to fly effectively.

I agree with that. Initially, to me it felt weird turning the head while looking at the monitor. I didn‘t play much with the settings, but it was weird enough for me to just not not bothering anymore to use TiR and use the ministick on the Saitek instead. Only once I came across Requiems TiR setting that I used as a base for minor further tweaking, I got comfortable unsing it to the point to not looking back to that darn flickery ministick.

 

[unreasonable]

The point about TiR vs VR is that while both allow you to turn your pov with a head movement, VR forces you to replicate actual head movements while TiR does not.

 

This is why TiR is superior for many of us (once we have the right profile).  Just as some of us would find a FFB stick that gives some light pressure to give one feedback superior to a FFB stick that actually requires 50lbs of force to enter a fast roll. Or for that matter why starting up our virtual Spitfire for a fly around is superior to actually having a real one, when you take into account the risks and costs.

 

I want to simulate flying around and fighting in a Spitfire, not replicate the experience. So for all the VR fans, I would just say I am happy that you are enjoying yourself but do not assume that what you are experiencing is what everyone else wants.

 

 

[ZachariasX]

3 hours ago, unreasonable said:

The point about TiR vs VR is that while both allow you to turn your pov with a head movement, VR forces you to replicate actual head movements while TiR does not.

 

This is why TiR is superior for many of us (once we have the right profile).  Just as some of us would find a FFB stick that gives some light pressure to give one feedback superior to a FFB stick that actually requires 50lbs of force to enter a fast roll. Or for that matter why starting up our virtual Spitfire for a fly around is superior to actually having a real one, when you take into account the risks and costs.

 

I want to simulate flying around and fighting in a Spitfire, not replicate the experience. So for all the VR fans, I would just say I am happy that you are enjoying yourself but do not assume that what you are experiencing is what everyone else wants.

 

 

 This is how I look at it as well. Athough I would cannot rule out that, once I'd connect an Oculus (and find a way to deal with VR sickness), I wouldn't look back either.

[unreasonable]

58 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

 This is how I look at it as well. Athough I would cannot rule out that, once I'd connect an Oculus (and find a way to deal with VR sickness), I wouldn't look back either.

 

If you bought a VR set you would be doing a lot of looking back....  

[Luger1969]

My TrackIR 4 packed up 3 weeks agao... RIP. The replacement would be costly $ and for me things are tough right now. I googled found this on the forum: 

 

From the skin section I know BHH is a perfectionist so decision was already rolling in my mind. If he likes it I will to ? 

 

Watched a few review on the internet and settled for the delanclip which was in my price range. Its gonna be a bit different since I always used the hat clip but I am looking forward to it. By the way the customer service/shipping was really good. It came much quicker than I expected.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Luger1969

[LukeFF]

17 hours ago, =FEW=Psyrion said:

Is Headtracking really that much more immersive?

 

Yes

[Elem]

I tried the TiR years ago and didn't like it, so sent it back. I just use a mouse in the right hand when I need to look around and swap back to joystick when I'm done, plus padlock and that has always been enough for me with a 40" 4K monitor. I'll go VR when the resolution is better.

[TWC_Ace]

For VR one needs a very strong PC which costs...also VR technology is still in its baby stage...Its a fact.

[RedKestrel]

26 minutes ago, blackram said:

For VR one needs a very strong PC which costs...also VR technology is still in its baby stage...Its a fact.

For me the issue with VR is...too much immersion? Like sometimes my kid needs me, or my wife asks me something, or the cat decides that my feet moving on the rudder pedals is a capital crime or at least worthy of a scratching. So I like to be able to at least be semi-aware of whats going on around me. With VR I find talking to people or any kind of interaction outside of it extremely disorienting. And it makes me less accessible to my family, which I would feel bad about. At least with headphones and headtracking I'm a little easier to approach if I'm needed, so I don't feel so bad dropping an hour or two into the game. 

Plus, considering how easily I get startled when flying, I think VR would legit give me a heart attack.

[JonRedcorn]

14 hours ago, unreasonable said:

The point about TiR vs VR is that while both allow you to turn your pov with a head movement, VR forces you to replicate actual head movements while TiR does not.

 

This is why TiR is superior for many of us (once we have the right profile).  Just as some of us would find a FFB stick that gives some light pressure to give one feedback superior to a FFB stick that actually requires 50lbs of force to enter a fast roll. Or for that matter why starting up our virtual Spitfire for a fly around is superior to actually having a real one, when you take into account the risks and costs.

 

I want to simulate flying around and fighting in a Spitfire, not replicate the experience. So for all the VR fans, I would just say I am happy that you are enjoying yourself but do not assume that what you are experiencing is what everyone else wants.

 

 

I take it you haven't actually tried VR. I am a bit perplexed as to who decided everyone must play In VR, it's an exciting new technology that gets us closer than ever to the real thing. I'd say most people playing flight sims would prefer to be as close to reality as possible. I would surely implore anyone who has the funds to try it themselves, it's truly an experience. I guess if my enthusiasm bothers you then I am truly sorry.

Edited July 12, 2018 by JonRedcorn

[unreasonable]

3 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

I take it you haven't actually tried VR. I am a bit perplexed as to who decided everyone must play In VR, it's an exciting new technology that gets us closer than ever to the real thing. I'd say most people playing flight sims would prefer to be as close to reality as possible. I would surely implore anyone who has the funds to try it themselves, it's truly an experience. I guess if my enthusiasm bothers you then I am truly sorry.

 

Your enthusiasm does not bother me in the least: you are just wrong to assume that people playing flight sims would prefer to be as close to reality as possible.   That is why we do not have to do long pre-flight checks, do not have careers where the majority of missions have no action, have time compression for when we get bored, and do not burn to death when our plane is shot down in flames.  Some people will like VR, others do not want to get sore necks.  It is a game, not a training exercise.

 

By all means tell people about the advantages as you see it, just spare us the incredulity that we do not all share your preferences.

[angus26]

1 hour ago, unreasonable said:

 

Your enthusiasm does not bother me in the least: you are just wrong to assume that people playing flight sims would prefer to be as close to reality as possible.   That is why we do not have to do long pre-flight checks, do not have careers where the majority of missions have no action, have time compression for when we get bored, and do not burn to death when our plane is shot down in flames.  Some people will like VR, others do not want to get sore necks.  It is a game, not a training exercise.

 

By all means tell people about the advantages as you see it, just spare us the incredulity that we do not all share your preferences.

I want a game so realistic, it would be cheaper to buy a time machine. 

[ZachariasX]

4 hours ago, angus26 said:

I want a game so realistic, it would be cheaper to buy a time machine. 

You don't value your life very high then.

[Feathered_IV]

I'm using trackir now, but used mouse-look for many, many years with satisfaction. I'd use the stick in my right hand, positioned beneath the table. Then use the mouse on the desk with my left hand.  I'm not very coordinated with my left, so it took some getting used to, but each time I got comfortable I'd increase the mouse speed slightly. After a while my hand would move in synch with my eyes to the extent that I wouldn't even think of it anymore. Come to think of it, I have my mouse positioned to the left to this day..

 

Additionally, getting a mouse with a few extra buttons (mine has 15) and programming some to be L-Ctrl, L-Shift, L-Alt, R-Ctrl etc. lets you increase the number of options on your stick's hat-switch and thumb buttons, enough to cover any eventuality.  My MS FFB combined with a programmable mouse in my left hand gives me 21 individual commands without breaking a sweat.  And up to 42 without resorting to any kind of three finger gymnastics.  I never need to take my eyes off the screen.  Handy if ever I switch to VR too.

[KatieLuna]

I play with a mouse and joystick. Mouse looks around, and allows me to easily track targets all around my cockpit.

My hat on my joystick controls my pilot's head movements side to side and up and down, and 2 buttons on my joystick base control head movement. I could map them to my mouse buttons, but I tend to leave those for communications.

I think my setup is unusual, as when I had trouble with it, I tried to explain it and nobody understood what i meant by "my hat control the head movement". They thought I meant it controls looking at specific directions (e.g. 45 degrees right, 90 degrees right, 135 degrees right, up, down, etc.)

Edited July 13, 2018 by TheTacticalCat

[Ehret]

Just now, TheTacticalCat said:

I play with a mouse and joystick. Mouse looks around, and allows me to easily track targets all around my cockpit.

My hat on my joystick controls my pilot's head movements side to side and up and down, and 2 buttons on my joystick base control head movement. I could map them to my mouse buttons, but I tend to leave those for communications.

 

I have a similar setup but trims are default for the hat-switch; the "head movements" are through the hat and shift/ctrl.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Ehret

[angus26]

8 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

You don't value your life very high then.

It was just a mere stab at those who want X-treme hyper realistic games is all. 

[JonRedcorn]

17 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

Your enthusiasm does not bother me in the least: you are just wrong to assume that people playing flight sims would prefer to be as close to reality as possible.   That is why we do not have to do long pre-flight checks, do not have careers where the majority of missions have no action, have time compression for when we get bored, and do not burn to death when our plane is shot down in flames.  Some people will like VR, others do not want to get sore necks.  It is a game, not a training exercise.

 

By all means tell people about the advantages as you see it, just spare us the incredulity that we do not all share your preferences.

Nobody ever insinuated everyone should want the same thing. I would just figure if it's realism you are after VR is a great way to get a step closer. If I wanted an arcadey action WW2 shooter I'd go play war thunder.

[unreasonable]

7 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

Nobody ever insinuated everyone should want the same thing. I would just figure if it's realism you are after VR is a great way to get a step closer. If I wanted an arcadey action WW2 shooter I'd go play war thunder.

 

The WT comparison confuses the realism of the illusion of being there with realism of the simulation.  The arcadey features of a game like WT relate to the lack of realism inside the simulation, not the method of interaction between human and simulation.  TiR can simulate the movement of the in-game pilot's head just as realistically as VR,  but without the necessity of forcing the player to replicate those movements.

 

I grant that  by restricting what can be seen to only that shown by the goggles, VR's illusion of "being there" is  superior in some respects: but then if you actually had to jump up out of your chair to bail out rather than push a button that might enhance the illusion too, but I do not see it as necessarily desirable. My heart rate during an intense fight is already high enough!

 

I want the internal workings of the game to be realistic so that as a player I cannot instruct the in game pilot to do something impossible that makes the plane do something impossible: but I do not have to replicate the experience of the pilot to do that:  indeed in many respects, as I mentioned earlier, I would much rather not. 

[ZachariasX]

12 hours ago, angus26 said:

It was just a mere stab at those who want X-treme hyper realistic games is all. 

Trust me, nobody wants that. The reality was hazardous and very uncomfortable. But true, there‘s always someone claiming to be sort of better than you. But let‘s let them. 

 

I‘m glad sims are not 100% realistic. The 1GCAP has the „C“ in it for „comfy“ in it. Aircraft of the era, especially at altitude, are not that. Some use a wooden stool for more realism, but I do like comfy.

 

But I will try VR at some point soon. Not for realism. But because it is a very impressive toy.

[kalbuth]

On 7/12/2018 at 10:43 AM, unreasonable said:

The point about TiR vs VR is that while both allow you to turn your pov with a head movement, VR forces you to replicate actual head movements while TiR does not.

 

This is why TiR is superior for many of us (once we have the right profile).  Just as some of us would find a FFB stick that gives some light pressure to give one feedback superior to a FFB stick that actually requires 50lbs of force to enter a fast roll. Or for that matter why starting up our virtual Spitfire for a fly around is superior to actually having a real one, when you take into account the risks and costs.

 

I want to simulate flying around and fighting in a Spitfire, not replicate the experience. So for all the VR fans, I would just say I am happy that you are enjoying yourself but do not assume that what you are experiencing is what everyone else wants.

 

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong....

Sorry but the assumption that because you need less movement to achieve same rotation, TiR is better is wrong. It's the exact opposite.

After a few years on tracking devices, followed by 1 year in VR, I can attest that this 1:1 relationship is EXACTLY what makes VR superior. Because your brain understands immediatly the movement, it just tells you naturally where you are, what attitude you have, what rotation you have, everything... You just FEEL everything about you and your plane state, BECAUSE you are acting in VR like you would be IRL.

This made everything 200% easier and better for me. I can stay locked on a plane one my 6 and I know exactly (I feel, to be more exact) the state of my plane, speed, altitude, and I maneuver exactly as I wish. No matter how much training you do in TiR to achieve the same degree of control in these situations, you get it in VR immediatly and moreprecisely.

The only moment I lose that feeling is when looking at my feet in cockpit and having zero outside view.

 

EDIT : sry, pressed the submit button far too quick, post was unfinished

Edited July 14, 2018 by kalbuth

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

2 minutes ago, kalbuth said:

Wrong, wrong, wrong....

Sorry but the assumption that because you need less movement to achieve same rotation, TiR is better is wrong. It's the exact opposite.

After a few years on tracking devices, followed by 1 year in VR, I can attest th

He is right tho in some ways for some of us its superior as Trackir is not 1 to 1 so we dont have to move as much to look around.
If i had 1 - 1 VR could not play really as due to spinal injury i cannot simply turn and check six.
(other people in here with other issues or disabilities also)

After all this is a game with our of breath nerds not a real airforce with Fit healthy pilots. ?

 

[kalbuth]

2 minutes ago, =TBAS=Sshadow14 said:

He is right tho in some ways for some of us its superior as Trackir is not 1 to 1 so we dont have to move as much to look around.
If i had 1 - 1 VR could not play really as due to spinal injury i cannot simply turn and check six.
(other people in here with other issues or disabilities also)

After all this is a game with our of breath nerds not a real airforce with Fit healthy pilots. ?

 

OK, I'm sorry for your condition and yes in this very specific circumstance VR is not suitable.

And I'm not trying to force people on VR, TiR works fine as well as plenty other methods. Just, the argument that the 1:1 movement ratio is a liability in VR is a wrong one. It's a bonus.

[unreasonable]

32 minutes ago, kalbuth said:

OK, I'm sorry for your condition and yes in this very specific circumstance VR is not suitable.

And I'm not trying to force people on VR, TiR works fine as well as plenty other methods. Just, the argument that the 1:1 movement ratio is a liability in VR is a wrong one. It's a bonus.

 

It is either a bonus or a liability depending on whether you prefer to have to look over you actual shoulder, or have another way to signal to the game pilot. So I am not wrong, wrong, wrong, about VR any more than I am wrong, wrong, wrong for not wanting to have to use 50lbs of force to roll my virtual aircraft at speed.

 

I agree that by replicating the head movement 1:1, VR would be more intuitive, and that TiR can take a while to learn how to use effectively: it took me a few weeks before I could fly in a complex dogfight without losing track and having to reset, for instance, but now I usually only have to do it once at the beginning of the mission and then just "look around" never having to move my head more than a couple of inches.  And of course you do not know the state of plane by feel in VR - you do not have feel, any more than I do using TiR,  since neither of us experience the actual G forces, what you are experiencing is an illusion of "feel", an illusion other people can get satisfactorily using TiR.

 

Your post is typical of the kind of thing to which I mildly object.  While I am happy that you are happy, the evangelism is tiresome. We do not all wish to be converted to the cult of VR. We can all try it and decide whether we prefer it, just like we did with the Wii.   

 

 

Edited July 14, 2018 by unreasonable

[kalbuth]

"evangelism".... lol

More on that later

 

On the specific point I was adressing : you know the question was coming so here it goes : have you actually tested VR in flightsim context for having a first hand experience in combat flightsim comparison with TiR? I do, and what could have been an argument in favor of TiR ends up being the opposite once you use VR, for various reasons constitutive of how VR and your brain works. That's just it. Why it triggers you that way seeing people stating this, I don't know. I'm just reporting what actually happens when you test both. And, yes, you actually get a feel for it you will never get when out of VR. This is not an attack on non VR way of playing, that's just how it is.

 

As far as evangelism goes, you don't know me, would you you'd know I'm very wary of not overselling VR. At current pricing, I don't think it's worth it for flightsims. If you can have it for reduced price, go for it, knowing its limitation and being OK with them (low resolution, bad quality, mostly subpar performances). But that specific point of 1:1 movement ratio is not one of the reason to not go VR.

Edited July 14, 2018 by kalbuth

[ZachariasX]

I guess VR is like LSD. You can explain it all day long and still you‘ll get the message only when...

[kalbuth]

Yup, there are certain things that are very difficult to explain, but... they are, definitely!

As far as LSD goes, can't comment, sry

[unreasonable]

1 hour ago, kalbuth said:

). But that specific point of 1:1 movement ratio is not one of the reason to not go VR.

 

It is for me: that is my whole point. I no more want to have to look over my own shoulder to see what is behind me when I play an aeroplane game, than I want to have to wave heavy objects around when I play an RPG with sword and board combat like the Witcher or Mount and Blade. 

 

I do not care what you prefer: but I am sick of being told that I am wrong to have the preferences that I have by someone who has become enamored of the latest gaming fad. 

[Thad]

Salutations Pilots,

 

I have been keeping up with VR headset developments. I'm not against anything VR. I'm currently leaning towards the Samsung headset.

 

But let's finally settle this. How?

 

Prove that flying in VR headsets provides a air combat advantage for the average flyer. When and IF that can be done... VR will rapidly become the norm.

 

I guarantee it. ?

 

Immersion in and of itself is great if it doesn't interfere with combat efficiency or if it actually improves it. In our game, air combat rules. Until VR does provide said advantage, the extra cost is a luxury most can't afford or now want.

[Ehret]

6 hours ago, kalbuth said:

OK, I'm sorry for your condition and yes in this very specific circumstance VR is not suitable.

And I'm not trying to force people on VR, TiR works fine as well as plenty other methods. Just, the argument that the 1:1 movement ratio is a liability in VR is a wrong one. It's a bonus.

 

Well... 1:1 (angular wise) is I what I have using a trackball. Full 360 degrees and rapid changes, too.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Ehret

[kalbuth]

It's not "a matter of preference" .... but whatever... It's like I'm speaking some kind of non english...

Fine gents, think I'm lying or whatever, and for whatever convoluted reason I would do so....

Case in point, it's better and made me a better virtual pilot. Period. you don't want to believe that specific point, your loss, not mine.

Edited July 14, 2018 by kalbuth